Sway Bar Questions

[Brian @ nbe]

Hi, before anyone brings it up, i did use the search button and i couldn't find the answer i was looking for.
So my question follows, What would be the best setup for sway bars. I was looking into the neuspeed 25mm Race. Now should i get same size for front and back, Bigger front smaller in the rear or smaller front and bigger rear.

I will be purchasing the Haldex Controller soon so please that into consideration because ive heard it would make a difference. So what would be the best setup. And can i go bigger?

Stay Cool

[gcwalla]

Thats sad you have to ask people to stay cool just in hope you dont get flamed for asking a question about setup.
I would go with a bigger sway in the rear and leave the front alone, mostly jsut because the front is a PITA.

[Brian @ nbe]

Thats sad you have to ask people to stay cool just in hope you dont get flamed for asking a question about setup.
I would go with a bigger sway in the rear and leave the front alone, mostly jsut because the front is a PITA.

Lol, i didnt mean it in that way. Im outside most of the day and its pretty hot. Thats how i meant it. And i dont care if it a pain in the ass, if im doing it im doing it right. Hows it a pain in the ass?

[WoodOne337]

H&R 21mm rear Sway Bar.
Leave the front alone.

[Brian @ nbe]

Ok, so please explain why everyone leaves the front alone. Forgot to mention i will be autoxing the r.

[rajuncajun37]

If you do it you wanna do it right?
Well, if ya suspension is set up properly you wouldn't even need a front sway bar. Leave it alone, the OEM is plenty nuff. And if your rear is too stiff you'll get oversteer.

Upgrade the rear with an adjustable H&R. Install it yourself. A better haldex sounds nice. What kind of tires you running? Generals or Kuhmo's??

[Brian @ nbe]

If you do it you wanna do it right?
Well, if ya suspension is set up properly you wouldn't even need a front sway bar. Leave it alone, the OEM is plenty nuff. And if your rear is too stiff you'll get oversteer.

Upgrade the rear with an adjustable H&R. Install it yourself. A better haldex sounds nice. What kind of tires you running? Generals or Kuhmo's??

Ill be running on Potenzas unless you have a better suggestion on tires. I have KW V3 with track settings setup already i happy with the way it ride now. But i need more lol. So i was looking into the h&r front and rear kit. But if you say it will oversteer if to stiff then nuff said. SO why are they selling the kits? My guess from the information gathered here is for marketing and selling unnessary items? Or selling them to people with stock suspension.

[Slapbladder]

KW V3's
H&R 25mm F and 21mm R
Powerflex Poly bushes all round

sorted.

[Yak Meat]

hotchkis develops their front and rear sways in conjunction - aka they are built to work together. go that route if you really want sways...

end of the day, control arm bushings and better driving skill would alleviate the need for them.

[jmh2002]

If you do it you wanna do it right?
Well, if ya suspension is set up properly you wouldn't even need a front sway bar. Leave it alone, the OEM is plenty nuff. And if your rear is too stiff you'll get oversteer.

Upgrade the rear with an adjustable H&R. Install it yourself. A better haldex sounds nice. What kind of tires you running? Generals or Kuhmo's??

On the one hand you suggest to leave it alone, and then you say add an H&R rear?
In general, this car's suspension design needs sway bars to cover all uses. Its not a mclaren...

If the OP wants to keep the overall balance but reduce sway, then both front and rear should be added.

On the other hand if he is auto crossing perhaps a lot of oversteer is in fact desired to get fast rotation. An adjustable setup might help in that respect. Soft for the street, hard for autocross.

Old threads have details about autocrosser's running without a front sway bar if you really feel you still cant rotate enough.

On the other hand, old threads also have info about to stiff sway bars (front or rear) simply meaning that the inside tire lifts when pusging really hard on the track.

All of this will very much depend on use, and the rest of your setup. And again here is where adjustable is useful (be that sway bar, or any other suspension component).

KW V3's
H&R 25mm F and 21mm R
Powerflex Poly bushes all round

sorted.

Yes, definitely H&R for long lasting quality (search to see problems with most other brands) and also for no squeak bushes.

Slap, you are right about many things, but advising Poly bushes all round is not one of them

Poly in some locations yes is acceptable. In others, it simply reduces the designed and required suspension articulation even further. This gives a feeling of 'tightness' but isnt doing what you really want...

[jmh2002]

So i was looking into the h&r front and rear kit. But if you say it will oversteer if to stiff then nuff said. SO why are they selling the kits?

So... dont set it to stiff then... ?

cajun was referring to a big rear bar (only), set to stiff, will induce more oversteer. This is just dynamics at play, it doesnt matter about the brand.

However adjustable is obviously preferred so you can match it to your setup, and your driving style.

H&R dont make BS products. They are a serious german company.

Just like I suggest when people ask about coilovers, I will always say get as much adjustability as possible. You can then set things up, and change things, as your preferences require (which may change as time goes by).

This saves money in the long run (just look at how many people buy non adjustable suspension and then say: "its not low enough" or "it rides to hard/soft")



PS: Do you have a Unibrace? If not, and you are considering these other mods, as well as autocross, then you should think about getting one!

[Brian @ nbe]

Thanks Guys for your very informing post, yes I am looking to by a unibrace as well. I don't mind riding extremely stiff. (neck breaker) I rather have little oversteer the under steer in my preference. But yeah I was looking at both h&r and neuspeed, and originally I was leaning towards the neuspeed ones but with the research I have conducted I'm now leaning towards the h&r ones. Anyone had experience with them.

And ps I'm not very low. I'm lowered maybe an inch.

[jmh2002]

... but with the research I have conducted I'm now leaning towards the h&r ones. Anyone had experience with them.

This has been answered already in this thread I think. Many people have had experience with the H&R bars, and whilst there are some other bars out there that people have had success with, basically everyone ha had success with the H&Rs without fail.

There are hundreds of sway bar threads here for you to search if you dont want to take my word for it.

[a4tq]

If you have V3's and you want to autox then don't be too concerned about stiff sway bars. Stiff swaybars with coilovers on street tires may make the car feel better but will slow you down. You have to look at the setup as a whole. If you don't have camber plates, then I would start with those. Set the front to -2, with zero toe and enjoy a good street/autox compromise. If you were considering a race tire setup, then a different set of dynamics come into play.

OP - Set the rear rebound to nearly full stuff. Set front rebound to nearly full soft. Adjust balance from there. Also use front compression to help minimize front end dive on hard input.

Too much front bar may help with fast transition, but will ruin corner exit as the R has open diffs.

Too much rear bar (this includes the H&R 21mm in your context) will result in inside rear wheel lift. This can result in one of two undesirable scenarious in autox and to a lesser extent in road course driving
1 - power goes to unloaded inside rear when you apply gas with rear wheel in air. When the wheel comes back into contact with ground the R will shoot off in opposite direction.
2 - when attempting to brake when rear wheel in air, e.g. corner entry, then ABS may freak out and you will end up with a rock hard brake pedal and no brake performance.

I use the hotckis 19mm rear bar on my R, and an autotech hollow 25mm front bar - that along with the rest of my setup has resulted in autox national tour and Prosolo wins in STX (street tire) class. I used to have setup problems with the H&R bar front and rear, but have not had either of the issues since I went to softer bars.

[jmh2002]

OP, all good info posted above ^^^

The autocrossing or road course aspect is really very relevant because as a4tq mentioned again you enter that zone where its possible to lift, depending on your setup, either the front or rear inside wheel, which opens up a set of variables not normally encountered on the street.

[jmh2002]

I use the hotckis 19mm rear bar on my R, and an autotech 25mm front bar - that along with the rest of my setup has resulted in autox national tour and Prosolo wins in STX (street tire) class.

Also, OP (and others) dont let this go unnoticed. Autocross champion that runs MORE!!! front bar than rear...

Regardless of wanting to be able to rotate (the often suggested 'problem' on the forum), or for non racers simply wanting to be able to get the rear end out for fun, nothing beats more front end grip.

Of course (and as reiterated by a4tq) everything needs to be considered 'as a whole' and, for example, adding more front end grip by definition means you have already altered the balance of the car.

This problem is often approached the wrong way around, which is why you see many threads here with people adding big rear bars and being happy with the result.

What they forget is their car now has ultimately less grip overall...

[rajuncajun37]

I SAID
leave the front alone
Leave the front alone!
LEAVE THE FRONT ALONE!!

Not the rear! On one hand!!

[jmh2002]

I SAID
leave the front alone
Leave the front alone!
LEAVE THE FRONT ALONE!!

Not the rear! On one hand!!

yes, after rereading, agreed - apologies. However, I still dont necessarily agree that its the correct advice.

See the above posts (and many other threads) and my quote below as to why.

Also, OP (and others) dont let this go unnoticed. Autocross champion that runs MORE!!! front bar than rear...

This problem is often approached the wrong way around, which is why you see many threads here with people adding big rear bars and being happy with the result.

What they forget is their car now has ultimately less grip overall...

Im one of those strange people that think that Less Overall Grip is NOT an 'improvement'

[oldracer]

Pet peeve - it's really an anti-roll bar, not an anti-sway bar......
marketing sells you things that increase profit first, maybe function too if you're lucky..........

I'm going with cajun, I'd leave the front alone initially unless you can identify a specific problem with it you want to reset............

Every chnange to your suspension will have a reaction and a consequence, balancing them to achieve your desired handling is difficult and requires knowledge and lots of trying different things....
Good luck and no matter what you will be learning how to get what you want.

[Brian @ nbe]

Wow, this is a generous amount of excellent advice. Just got home and as im reading through, im just reading and reading.


@a4tq
Thanks for your response, i have setup up the V3's with the help of Marcel at HPA. I completely love how it drives and handles. No complains absolutely no complains. And which camber plates would you recommend?

@jmh2002
Yes i agree with you, i also do prefer more front grip than rear rotating, like you said nothing beats front grip.

[YikeGrymon]

I'll put in a vote for H&R bars front and rear.

Have had these for 3 years now. Good stuff. Other useful bits I have in place (useful by themselves, and in combination with these bars, or just each other), in no particular order:

OE Euro springs
Koni FSDs
UNIbrace

EDIT: I've also got the blue Haldex controller. Not sure of the difference it's made, as the car came my way with that tweak already made. But I do like the way it works. Just can't compare it to OEM, personally.

[Brian @ nbe]

I'll put in a vote for H&R bars front and rear.

Have had these for 3 years now. Good stuff. Other useful bits I have in place (useful by themselves, and in combination with these bars, or just each other), in no particular order:

OE Euro springs
Koni FSDs
UNIbrace

How do you like the UNIbrace? Ill be in the market for one soon.

[CISinjected]

If it were me I'd go run a few smaller events and see what needed changed before jumping into a bar that may or may not help.

This is just speculation on my part: I would think the haldex unit should come first after the coils are dialed in. At that point you can see how much push is left and how much you can get rid of without inner rear wheel spin. I could be way off.

[YikeGrymon]

How do you like the UNIbrace? Ill be in the market for one soon.

The difference the UNIbrace makes is hard to verbalize. You can definitely feel what it does though, and one thing I found interesting was how that feeling goes away once you get used to it. But I guess that's true with all sorts of things. Like years ago I lived quite close to some train tracks, and Amtrak's Acela units would fly by occasionally at 120mph. But after a while I didn't really notice or hear them.

Anyway. The best way I can put it is that it makes the car feel like one big solid hunk o' vehicle rather than a few smaller pieces bolted and welded together. I put one of these in my old (MkIV) GTI in like fall of 2006 and found the same thing. The few squeaks and creaks that car made vanished once the brace was in (though I think that was the "old" TST StressBrace... but hey that was really just UNI v 1.0 for all intents). After it was in place, I found that jacking the car by the front lifting point would also result in the rear tire on that side coming off the ground a bit, which didn't happen before. If that doesn't tell you that things were made more solid, I don't know what would. The decrease in twist of the body was also pretty noticeable.

Interestingly enough, the decrease in body twist was evident in the R as well, but, I thought, not as much. I was thinking that maybe that was because I was so used to it in the GTI or maybe it was because I'd had the R for only 9 months or so before adding the UNIbrace (fall 2009) whereas I'd had the GTI for like five years first. Then again, I did notice that, when lifting the R from a front jacking point, the rear tire would come up a bit also, BEFORE the UNIbrace was in. So my conclusion from this was that there must be something going on with the structure of a MkIV R32 that is heftier or something that makes it stiffer than the structure of a MkIV Golf or GTI. I have no clue if that's correct (maybe someone with more insight can comment here), but it makes sense, given the extra "stuff" out back in an R. I guess the easiest thing to say is that while it clearly makes a difference in an R32, it seemed to be less of a difference than it made in a Golf/GTI.

The downside is that imperfections or undulations or whatever in the pavement that are enough to jostle you about are worse. But that's the trade-off, and true for any kind of mod like this. Still worth it. Once you have it in, and before you're totally used to what it feels like, you'll have the sensation that the back of the car follows the front of the car better than it did before. Something like that.

bla bla
woof woof

Hope my stream-of-consciousness narrative here is useful....

[Slapbladder]

At the end of the day the R32 like all the Haldex cars love to under steering as they built safety in to the car for normal idiots on the road....to counter act this you will need to get the rear to try and step out a little so you get a nice 4 wheel drift with balance. Also turn off that sodding ESP or get it coded out of the ECU for good!

[jerd]

bought both of my neuspeed sway bars used and they have help up great so far!!!
Also bought my unibrace used and it has been full of win!!!

x2 on the blue controller
to date one of my favorite modifications!!!

[jmh2002]

At the end of the day the R32 like all the Haldex cars love to under steering as they built safety in to the car for normal idiots on the road....to counter act this you will need to get the rear to try and step out a little so you get a nice 4 wheel drift with balance.

Or, as I may have mentioned already instead of first trying to get the rear end to step out, and ending up with Less Overall Grip, you can reduce the under steer by Adding Front End Grip...

Result: Less Understeer. More Front Grip. No Reduction in Rear Grip. More Overall Grip

This can be done with a few different methods or combination thereof: more negative camber, defcon/h2sport/USRT front LCA bearing upgrades, wider front track (spacers, or, even wider front tires), h2sport spindles, reduced front end weight, etc, etc.

I realise old habits die hard, and a big rear sway is an easy fix, but it really is a better idea to do everything to address the front end first. You will be much happier in the end.

However, if finances are an issues, a big rear bar remains a cheap and easy fix - just remember you are actually reducing the overall handling capability of the car, not increasing it (even if it 'feels better').

[Yak Meat]

Im almost done with my suspension mods. They are as follows:

Tein Super Street Coils - 12 up front and 16 in the rear for stiff (1 is soft 16 is full stiff)
H2Sport Camber Plates 1.5 neg up front 1 neg in the rear
MadMax/MCPII lower rear control arms
Lightweight brakes all around
UniBrace
Solid Subframe Bushings
ECS Dogbone mount

Coming:
USRT/IDF control arms - 700
upper rear control arms - MCPII/MadMax - 300
Orange controller - 700-1000
DLI motor mounts - 450

Maybe:
Hotchkis sways

So I have about $3000 left to purchase in parts for the R for suspension and then shes done in that regard.

As far as feel is concerned, she definitely plows in corners occasionally and my tires need a serious upgrade, but to fix the plow, the front control arms will give more grip and alleviate that in a better way than a rear sway would. Furthermore, the orange controller will be better in the corners and help as well without reducing overall grip - bad, and not lifting inner rear wheel - bad again.

My motor moves around a lot still, hence the DLI mounts...

[Slapbladder]

Or, as I may have mentioned already instead of first trying to get the rear end to step out, and ending up with Less Overall Grip, you can reduce the under steer by Adding Front End Grip...

Result: Less Understeer. More Front Grip. No Reduction in Rear Grip. More Overall Grip

This can be done with a few different methods or combination thereof: more negative camber, defcon/h2sport/USRT front LCA bearing upgrades, wider front track (spacers, or, even wider front tires), h2sport spindles, reduced front end weight, etc, etc.

I realise old habits die hard, and a big rear sway is an easy fix, but it really is a better idea to do everything to address the front end first. You will be much happier in the end.

However, if finances are an issues, a big rear bar remains a cheap and easy fix - just remember you are actually reducing the overall handling capability of the car, not increasing it (even if it 'feels better').

ANTI ROLLLLLLL BAR not SWAY I know there are many ways of getting the car to grip but you are still fighting physics as in previous posts a 4wd car or Awd car will still lean on understeer what ever you do.....hence the old scandanavian flick for the Audi S1's in rallying ;o)

[jmh2002]

ANTI ROLLLLLLL BAR not SWAY I know there are many ways of getting the car to grip but you are still fighting physics as in previous posts a 4wd car or Awd car will still lean on understeer what ever you do.....hence the old scandanavian flick for the Audi S1's in rallying ;o)

Sigh...

The OP said sway, so i stuck to it to avoid confusion.

So, because you are fighting physics, you should just do nothing? Or, add a big anti-roll bar to 'get the rear end out' like you said, thereby creating a new problem to fight?

As in previous posts, you remain wrong that an awd car (so, inlcuding a haldex car in awd mode) 'will still lean on understeer what ever you do'

Whilst I agree that as delivered from the factory most cars (be they awd or not) are set up to understeer for safety reasons.

However to say they will continue to do that 'what ever you do' is simply not correct, since there are so many ways to alter the handling characteristics and prevent that happening.

And, this is exactly what we are discussing here.

My car doesnt understeer anymore, it is in fact very neutral. Maybe yours is set up poorly...

[rajuncajun37]

I'm French, name is MELANCON. But this wine and cheese you spit'n is killing me. I'm running PSS9's and an AUTOTECH rear sway. Everything works better with the proper alignment. With very little money I fixed the understeer problem. I can achieve understeer or oversteer with steering input and or throttle input. It's not a mystery, get the car aligned.

Hey, frenchy. Why you not watch'n the olympics? Tired of seeing all them medals we pulling back to the states? You live in this thread, geaux fly a kite.

[CISinjected]

[rajuncajun37]

[Slapbladder]

Sigh...

The OP said sway, so i stuck to it to avoid confusion.

So, because you are fighting physics, you should just do nothing? Or, add a big anti-roll bar to 'get the rear end out' like you said, thereby creating a new problem to fight?

As in previous posts, you remain wrong that an awd car (so, inlcuding a haldex car in awd mode) 'will still lean on understeer what ever you do'

Whilst I agree that as delivered from the factory most cars (be they awd or not) are set up to understeer for safety reasons.

However to say they will continue to do that 'what ever you do' is simply not correct, since there are so many ways to alter the handling characteristics and prevent that happening.

And, this is exactly what we are discussing here.

My car doesnt understeer anymore, it is in fact very neutral. Maybe yours is set up poorly...

You can sigh all you want....your know it all attitude is hilarious followed by French arrogrance is genius.

The MK4 R32 will over steer or under steer of course its how you drive the car....the car WILL naturally under steer as its not a 50/50 weight split. This is why you have to flick the car in to corners to steer from the rear or as i said previously get the back end to gently come round so you can have the rear of the car help you in the corner. Sounds to me like your driving skill likes a very neutral car and you don't like a fast lively car.

[Brian @ nbe]

Thanks and sorry for late response haven't had time to respond. I know they're called anti-roll bars but they are also called sway or tension bars. Either term
Is valid. But like someone here said to take it to the track an feel what the car is lacking in my taste. I hope to do this sometime in the following week or two. Do a couple of runs and then figure out what can be improved for my style of driving. I will definitely be placing an order for the haldex controller which I'll be debating which one I should get. As for the unibrace, my buddy has one laying around and never put it on, so I'll see if I can use for testing. Which that being said I appreciate everyone taking their time and replying to my thread.