Considering a USA Phaeton--have a few questions

[Bedlam]

Hi folks. I'm in the USA (Seattle area) and I'm considering getting a Phaeton. I've read these forums front to back, read every review I can get my hands on, and watched every video I can find.

(1) Does anyone know of a certified Phaeton mechanic in the greater Seattle area? Can anyone with a Phaeton in the Seattle area recommend a dealer (or, conversely, warn me about a dealer)?

(2) I'd really like active cruise control. This is important enough to me to be a deal-killer. Based on my research, this was standard in 2005-2006 and not available even as an option in 2004. Is this true? I only ask because 2004 models are so much more common than the 2005 and 2006.

(3) Anyone have any comments on "Assurant Solutions" for an extended car warranty? I was considering the USAA extended warranty because I strongly trust USAA. However, I notice USAA is just reselling service from Assurant Solutions.

(4) In the CarFax reports I see quite a few Phaetons have been through an auto auction. What does this mean? Is it normal or bad?

(5) A quick search on cars.com and autotrader show that there are a plethora of low-mileage 2004 models, but almost no low-mileage 2005-2006, despite being newer. This is the opposite of what I would expect. Why would later models be driven so much more than a 2004 model with a whole extra year or two of age?

[IwasHuman]

Greetings fellow seattle-tonian! I'm still relatively new to the phaeton world, but i can answer some of these questions.

1. Yes, pignitaro in everett has a certified phaeton mech. I think theyre about the only dealer that does. Good people there too. My car was previously owned by the owner there.

2. Dont have active cruise control in my 2004. Soft close doors also were not available. I think.

3,4,5. No idea

I live abou 30 mins north of seattle. If you want some face time with a phaeton to see if you like it without salesman pressure i might be able to meet up somewhere.

[hhaller]

Regarding #4: I've been cross-shopping the Phaeton with the A8, and I see that quite a few of those are brought in from auction as well. I really have no concrete idea why, but if I had to guess, it's simply b/c at some point auto dealerships want to get these things off the lot if they don't sell.

Been looking for an extended warranty myself. Harder to find than you'd think.

[danthemanohhyea]

About the auction thing, a lot of big cars like these depreciate faster than they sell on the lot. So the dealerships auction them to avoid losing money on what they paid for them on trade-in, or that's how my manager explained it (manager of a BMW dealership's used department).

I wouldn't say it's a bad thing, but around here the auction companies tend to damage the paint work (swirl marks galore) with their do-it-quick buffer guys.

Sent from a pay phone using Tapatalk for those stuck in the '80's edition.

[CLMims]

My $.02:

1. (East-coast resident, can't help with this)

2. I could be wrong, but I didn't think any NAR Phaetons had the ACC option (i.e., if you look at any pictures of a NAR steering wheel, they all had the lefthand 4-button no-thumbwheel/non-ACC cruise controller). I seem to recall someone doing a retrofit write-up, but it may have been a ROW car. Michael/PanEuropean once stated that the ABS/brake booster had to be swapped out for an ACC retrofit, but search for the retrofit writeup, I think it may have been accomplished by simply installing/adapting the radar unit behind the foglight cover.

3. My only experience with an extended warranty (which I definately recommend) is the VW Platinum/Fidelity coverage; search the Phaeton forum for "Langhorne, PA VW" and look for someone named Chris, if you can find a Phaeton that is under 50,000 you might be able to get this, although the age of the car might preclude an extended warranty - it's worth a shot though.

4. I don't think auto auctions are bad per se (it is an easy way for a leasing company to move a large number of off-lease cars, especially if they didn't "take off" in popularity as was the case of the Phaeton); I'd be wary if a single car has gone to auction several times over, though....

5. This is just an assumption (there are posts on the forum with solid numbers), but basically there were more 2004s sold than 2005s and 2006s; this makes the 2005-2006 models more sought after, while the 2004s are less sought after - you can find several 2004 W12 Phaetons for sale on any given day, but I think there are only 13 2006 W12s in the entire U.S. (this may be the 4-seater count, but I know it's low!) Another factor was the 2004 models were "stacked" with most of the options (technology/premium/cold weather) and had a had a higher price tag than the subsequent 2005-2006 models, which is why in the autotrader site pics of 2005-2006 models you will see the manual headrests, no seat massage buttons (front or rear) - this, to me, indicated a trend at lower pricing, which would drive higher turnonver and thus higher mileage (I guess a poor analogy would be similar to why you don't see many high-mileage Bentleys or low-mileage Corrolas for a given year!)

Hope this helps!

Chris

[tortoiseandhare]

I get my Phaeton serviced at Carter VW in Ballard - friendly folks and good service.

[Panther427]

Auto auctions are very common. They serve a few basic jobs.
Say you trade your Ferrari in at a Ford dealership. Well most people who go to a ford dealer are not in the market for a Ferrari. So sell it at auction to another dealer who has that type of clients.
Second reason is dealers have an internal limit of the number of days they will keep a used car on the lot. So say after 90 days the car goes to auction
Third a particular type of car is traded in one state where that type of car isn't popular, say a convertable in Montana. But that type of car will sell better in say California. So they take a car that they think has limited buyers and buy ones that will sell better.
Then there are lease returns. You can turn trade in your lease to any dealer, but its not really there car so the lease company takes it back and sends it to auction.

[Zaphh]

Hi,

No NAR car has ADR (or ACC), even the 2005 or 2006. I also recall that someone retrofitted it successfully.

What the 2005/2006 have that the 2004 don't is mainly soft close doors and newer type air shocks (but some 2005 don't have them).

P.

[Bedlam]

IwasHuman - What a kind offer! I may take you up on that, but not for a long time. I am about a year or even a year and a half out from buying one. Yes, that's how far ahead I start doing research. Also, thanks for the mention of Pignitaro. I will keep them in mind when I finally pull the trigger.

CLMims - No active cruise control is distressing to me. Based on your comments I loaded up every steering wheel image I could find in 2005-2006 Phaetons on cars.com and you are right. All have the four buttons and no ACC thumbwheel. The bad news is I cannot get a feature I've wanted for years. The good news is, since none of the years have it, I can start considering the much more plentiful low-mileage 2004s. I got my information about ACC being available for 2005+ here on Edmunds.com, which appears to be incorrect. "Changes to VW's flagship sedan include a new style front grille, new soft-close doors, active cruise control and standard cell phone preparation for the W12 model (optional on V8). The V8 model also receives revised 18-inch alloy wheels and wood upgrades (Myrtle and Walnut)."

Hhaller - The USAA quote currently allows Phaetons of all years. I did a few quotes with different years and mileage. The year had no affect on the price of the warranty--mileage was the sole determination for price. For a 60k mile car, 1yr/12k was about $1800 and 3yr/36k was about $3900. Can't remember the 2yr/24k price, but obviously it was in the middle somewhere. USAA is military only (active, retired, or child of), but as USAA is really only reselling Assurant Solutions warranty, you may be able to find a different reseller if you are not military.

Thanks everyone for the quick replies, what a great group!

[perfrej]

Regarding the cruise control... I have a 2006 W12 and a 2008 3.0TDI, both with the ACC/ADR, and the latter with side assist and front assist as well. The 2006 ACC/ADR gives up at 30 km/h (20mph), while the 2008 revision (with the radar in the VW badge) goes to a full stop. I wish I had the 2008 cruise on the 2006 W12! It is far superior to the older one.

/per

[CLMims]

Hi Bedlam,

You can read about dudekv's ADR retrofit here: ACC, ADR, radar Phaeton 3D HELP coding needed Retrofit



(I'm still not quite sure what exactly would be needed for a NAR Phaeton (the retrofitted car was a ROW model), but additonal info on ADR can be found in the VW Self Study Guide on ADR: SSP 276 - Automatic Distance Regulation (ADR).pdf

[invisiblewave]

Regarding the low-mileage 04 models, you might find you're getting the opposite of what you expect. My 04 was fine up until about 70k miles, virtually no problems at all other than routine issues. Since then, the warranty has coughed up a significant amount to fix various electronic controllers, the latest being the ABS controller. I can't say whether these fail by mileage or by age, but whatever the mileage on it, you'd probably be best advised to carefully check back through the records on the vehicle and see which, if any, electronics have already been changed. I'd look for the ABS, TPMS, battery controller, batteries themselves, window regulator, a/c flap motor, steering column wiring, rear window shade (mine's just broken). In addition to that, you probably also want to check if the timing belt has been done, if it hasn't it probably needs to be at that age, regardless of the mileage.

I'm not sure the mileage really matters that much other, perhaps, than in relation to the transmission. The engines appear to be close to bullet-proof, it's the electronics that cause most of the problems.

[Bedlam]

You can read about dudekv's ADR retrofit here:

Thank you! That self-study is very readable and interesting. Unfortunately the retrofit thread itself it pretty daunting. I admit it is way over my head.

First step, get the car.

Regarding the low-mileage 04 models, you might find you're getting the opposite of what you expect.

I have a slight preference for the newer years anyway, but the far greater availability of the 2004 model makes that the most likely buy for me. I do appreciate the caution you suggest. I suspect I will include a paid warranty as a required part of the cost of this particular car, just as insurance and registration are part of the cost of any car.

[Motorista]

Just my two bits, as I do not have it anyway (05 V8 with all accessories except for active cruise, distance parking sensors, upgraded stereo and power-closing trunk). However, I have experienced a few European cars of the 2004/2005 vintage with this feature (not Phaetons) and found this early generation to be sorely lacking on the software side: the system appeared utterly unpredictable and easily confused, to the point of sometimes slamming on the brakes unexpectedly or slowing down for no apparent reason. This, by the way, is confirmed by Euro magazines of that ear. It's my understanding that newer models have resolved most of these issues.

Regarding which year to choose, if I were in the market I would look for a 2005 actually built in calendar 2005, or for one of the few 2006. My car, for example, was built in early February 2005 (as I mentioned I bought it new in October of that year) and has the updated suspension components as well as a slew of updated controllers. Perhaps in part as a result of these updates, my car has been utterly reliable in the almost seven years and 65kmiles that I have owned it: absolutely no electronic or mechanical failures of any kind, with the only exception of the replacement, a month ago, of the TPMS controller.

Which brings me to your question about the extended warranty. Mine is the VW Platinum, purchased from Chris Farnham at VW of Langhorne, near Philly. Overall I think it's fine, though I used it very little given how reliable my car is. Keep in mind, however, that any extended "warranty" is really an insurance contract, so, like any insurance the devil is:
1) in the fine print: read carefully about what is *not* covered, such as "trim pieces", which can be construed to mean the expensive and complex wood-covered lids in the dash hiding the vents, or the deadly combination of "wear items" and "total mileage limit", which, in Phaeton's case, might leave your precious and expensive air suspension components totally uncovered if your car has, say, more than 70kmiles.
2) how good is the insurance company in paying a claim: do they need to send out an adjuster every time (which will stretch the time your car is sitting in the shop), and do they require 're-manufactured" items instead of new? Imagine, for example, needing a new ZF transmission and being told that they will cover only the cost of a re-manufactured one, which, given the rarity of the car, might be very hard to come by.

In closing, please do not let all of this deter you from your search: the Phaeton is indeed a very complex and aging car, but it remains well-worth the hassles. Back in the 90's I met an insurance agent at the wheel of a Bugatti two-seater: he told me that he was forced to accept it in partial payment from a young and somewhat destitute French student in 1950 who otherwise would have stiffed him the insurance premium. Apparently the kid belonged to a wealthy family who sent him to study in the US and let him bring the oldest of their family cars (the Bugatti); however, the kid did not do well and dropped out, and the family in the meantime had fallen upon some hardship. Well, my insurance agent friend, not being a gear head, felt this was not a good deal and tried to flip the car but could not find any takers, so he ended up keeping it. Forty years later, he was sitting on a small fortune, assessed at the time at $900k. But more importantly, he had enjoyed tremendously all these years with the old car, and the kind of people he met as a member of the "Bugatti owners club". My point here is that the Phaeton is, up to a point, comparable to what a Bugatti or Duesemberg was when they were merely old but not yet collectible: a car designed and built by letting passion trump economics and production costs, a beautiful and inspiring example of the state of the automotive art at the time of design. We are very lucky to have had the opportunity to own one, either new but at a price made affordable (barely, in my case) by its relative lack of market success, or as a used but not yet collectible car. Yes it is complex, probably increasingly expensive to maintain with age and mileage, and in some respects at least, no longer reflecting the state of the art. But, what an enormous satisfaction, what a great sense of pride driving such a magnificent vehicle!
Good luck with your search!
Stefano

[gtferrari]

i too have been searching for a serivce contract provider. but they have been denying coverage. the car i was seeking coverage on only has 68k miles on it but it is a 2004. they dont give any reason denying the coverage. so my guess it must be the age. or the fact that a w12 engine cost $36k to replace.....

the last one i tried was autopom (piece of mind) the agent was very polite and they are insured by mercury.... yadda yadda yadda. BBB and A+ ratings.

i have yet to try car chex 866.538.5986
waranty direct 800.632.4222
national warranty 866.7691773
i havnt been able to track down an assurant broker other than usaa.

[invisiblewave]

It's the same with the VW Fidelity policies, they won't cover the car beyond a certain age or mileage. I bought my warranty with just under 60k on the clock when the car was 6 years old and the longest coverage they'd give me was 4 years/48k but with a maximum mileage limit of 100k. I was told by the dealer that it wouldn't be renewable when it expired. If you can get the VW Platinum policy, I'd highly recommend it, they've been very good about approving all the work I've had done on mine (around $15k's worth so far!). They send a loss adjuster out if the cost is above about $750 if I remember correctly. I'm hoping that by the time the warranty expires, I'll have mostly the newer model controllers installed courtesy of the insurance company!

[Bedlam]

I do appreciate the warnings! However, as a person who has previously been scammed by a third party warranty provider, believe me, no warning is needed in this case.

In a way, I should probably thank those guys. I got off relatively cheaply ($800) and learned an important lesson early in life about not just reading a contract, but truly understanding them.

I also will never forgive the motorcycle dealership that sold me that warranty. As they have a monopoly in the area (all dealerships belong to the same guy), I actually flew out of state to buy my last motorcycle.

Heck, I might have to do the same to get a Phaeton I like. There is exactly one Phaeton for sale in my state.

[Jxander]

i too have been searching for a serivce contract provider. but they have been denying coverage. the car i was seeking coverage on only has 68k miles on it but it is a 2004. they dont give any reason denying the coverage. so my guess it must be the age. or the fact that a w12 engine cost $36k to replace.....

the last one i tried was autopom (piece of mind) the agent was very polite and they are insured by mercury.... yadda yadda yadda. BBB and A+ ratings.

i have yet to try car chex 866.538.5986
waranty direct 800.632.4222
national warranty 866.7691773
i havnt been able to track down an assurant broker other than usaa.

Phaetons like most luxury cars are quite expensive to maintain. However, given the early air strut dillema and engine removal for some repairs, it contains some risks that are unique to the car. Thus, you often hear don't buy nor own a Phaeton without a warranty. But the mere fact that owners want to insure themselves against the risk of Phaeton ownership is mirrored by the warranty companies that either do not want to insure Phaetons or will do so only at high cost. Forum members here are quite knowledgeable about potential repair costs but the warranty outfits are at least equally informed. My Phaeton was originally covered by VWs CPO warranty. During those two years VW payed for a transmission fluid/filter exchange and software update. This was unsuccessful in resolving the issue so they covered a replacement transmission. This was followed by replacing one vacuum controlled actuator arm for the intake manifold tuning. After that the AC controller and several servo(flap) motors were replaced. So VW likely spent in retail dollars a bit more than $10k in two years. I personally put new tires on the car, a new Convenience battery, and did the timing belt service. Other than that just routine maintenance.

It's been just over two years since the warranty expired and I have since spent a whopping $350 on repairs. Of course I know I can't expect that outcome to persist indefinitely. My expectation is to spend approximately $1500 per year on average for repairs and maintenance. That's why air struts scare me to death. If I go the VW route and spend $10k or so it'll be awfully hard to average $1500 on repairs.

Jim X