Car still will only run with straight wired Cold Start Valve

[malcolm123]

87' Golf GTI 16v
New Fuel Pumps
New fuel filter
New Cold start Valve
Injectors spray fine when bypassing Fuel Pump Relay
New Fuel Pump Relay
New Ignition switch
New Battery
New Starter
New Plugs
Timing is correct
New O2 Sensor
New Dist. Cap and Rotor

Thought the problem would be my ignition switch, but I got a new one today as well as a new Fuel Pump relay. CSV is Straight wired to battery to bypass Thermo Timing switch. With a toggle in between the switch and the ground (gr/white) Positive straight to the Pos. battery terminal. The car will only run if I turn on the cold start valve. Even if I leave it on long enough to not need it, the car still will not start without it. I noticed the other day while working on my cousin's 86' GTI, that his Idle Stabilizer will hum with his ignition turned. My doesnt hum. I tried his a couple of weeks ago, but that did not solve my problem either.

No Vacuum leaks
It's like my fuel system is not getting any voltage or something. I cleaned and re-grounded all of the grounds. Cleaned the Fuel Dist. Plunger and reset to original setting. Fusebox is good. All fuses are good.

Any other ideas Please!! I really need some help. I dont need a complete walkthrough, just a starting point.

Tomorrow, I will pull my cousin's Load Reduction relays to see what that does. I will also do more sensor and wire harness light testing. My knock Sensor wire also seems kind of loose at the torque bolt. Hall Sensor side looks good.

Help Please!!

Thanks

[elementsoffury]

Did the other ISV hum on your car?

Have you checked the dpr current?

Check if you car has the bolt with the filter inside it on the fuel dizzy feed line. I think it's the line closer to the front of the car. A raised round section on the head of the bolt is what it would look like.

[malcolm123]

Did the other ISV hum on your car?

Have you checked the dpr current?

Check if you car has the bolt with the filter inside it on the fuel dizzy feed line. I think it's the line closer to the front of the car. A raised round section on the head of the bolt is what it would look like.

Ok, I tested the current to the DPR and got a light on both terminals.

So I decided to remove the boot from my Air Flow Sensor. The plate was down with a big gap in it. Then I loosen the two screws on the DPR and let a little pressure off. After that, the air flow sensor plate moved back to a more suitable position.

So I replaced all of the boots and turned the car over again. Then I removed the air flow sensor boot and the plate has dropped down again. Pressure is building up in there some where. Im going to look for the bolt with the filter in it that you mentioned.

Now Im wondering if it's my return line. That valve may not be doing what it is supposed to do.

Still open for any suggestions.

Thanks!

[elementsoffury]

It sounds like stuff is way off. The plate should only be a nickel's thickness below the tapered part. Then there should be a tiny bit of play when you go to lift it. Like .5 mm of play or less. And the spring below should hold the plate the nickel's thickness. This is all when the system is pressurized.

You check DPR current with a test harness and a voltmeter on the mA scale. You should see fluctuating values in the 2 - 10 mA range. Yours sounds like it will show a solid 20mA which is the highest value cis-e will show and it means it's super lean.

You really need to go over all the basic plate adjustments in the bentley.

You might find it easier to just get a whole airbox top / fuel dizzy setup from the classifieds. Hopefully from a running, emissions passing car. Or borrow the setup from the other car just to try it. Fairly easy to swap.

[malcolm123]

Thanks, I will make a test harness tomorrow when I get my Fluke back.
Yes, there is definetly a problem. I will pressurize the system after I
Replace a couple of hoses I was testing. Then. I will restart on the settings.
I'm sure its running lean. I will get to the adjustment screw after checking the plate.
Plate is fine right now with no pressure on the dist.

Thanks.

[elementsoffury]

Sounds kinda funny that the fuel dizzy plunger extends a lot when the system is pressurized. Try to measure the depth of the plunger stop screw on the underside of the fuel dizzy against bentley specs. This is extremely hard to measure unless you're a machinist or have a precise, fine, micro depth gauge. I think it's supposed to be like .3mm below the shoulder

Maybe get some pics of stuff.

[malcolm123]

Sounds kinda funny that the fuel dizzy plunger extends a lot when the system is pressurized. Try to measure the depth of the plunger stop screw on the underside of the fuel dizzy against bentley specs. This is extremely hard to measure unless you're a machinist or have a precise, fine, micro depth gauge. I think it's supposed to be like .3mm below the shoulder

Maybe get some pics of stuff.

I did clean the plungy after it sat up for 5 year. I mark the nut stem throw before I cleaned it
I don't think it would slip, but its worth taking a look at if I van remove the two top screws.
Somebody had them leaning towards the stripped side.

This will be my last week dealing with this before I just take it to the shop.
Heck everything is about replaced. Just need a VW cert. Mechanic with the proper tools
Testers and Diag equipment.

Thanks

[malcolm123]

Still waiting on a response to the DPR special VW harness.

Here is what I have came up with thus far:


Amps
DPR
Harness to ground: .21ma on red/yellow. .23-.24ma on grey/blue

Harness between both pins:
.11


Voltage
Idle Air Stabilizer Valve Harness
Center to ground: 12.57
Center to left brw/red: 12.10
Center to right: gr/ red: 12.21

Ohms
Idle Stabilizer Valve
Continuity between center pin and both outer pins

Thanks

[nbvwfan]

Sounds like the stop plate is too low and you need to get it to specs at rest as well as while under pressure.
Bentley talks about what spring to adjust.
With or without a DPR the car should run if the sensor plate is in the resting position, if it sits too low it will be fuel starved which is why it only runs with the cold start jumped.
The DPR adjusts the pressure between the lower and upper fuel chambers. At 20 Mah it is pushing on top of the membranes and making the plate sit lower than the stop spring position, that or your spring is set too low. Though the DPR had different specs -10 to 10 0 to 20 -15 to 15 depending on what F/I you have; they all work on the same principle.

Your car should run with the DPR disconnected, and to test sensor plate rest position, put your hand under the sensor plate and have someone start the car while you push it up. When you can feel the at idle position tou could tweak the rest spring to near that point. Then check it with the cobra head boot removed.
Good luck
I had a similar issue, though I was too rich and had a rough idle, it turned out the CTS and Thermo-time switch were the issue.
DPR's are pretty much working or dead. If you have any current coming out of one it is likely doing its job.
If it causes the plate to drop below the stop position it is likely not the non starting issue.

[malcolm123]

Sounds like the stop plate is too low and you need to get it to specs at rest as well as while under pressure.
Bentley talks about what spring to adjust.
With or without a DPR the car should run if the sensor plate is in the resting position, if it sits too low it will be fuel starved which is why it only runs with the cold start jumped.
The DPR adjusts the pressure between the lower and upper fuel chambers. At 20 Mah it is pushing on top of the membranes and making the plate sit lower than the stop spring position, that or your spring is set too low. Though the DPR had different specs -10 to 10 0 to 20 -15 to 15 depending on what F/I you have; they all work on the same principle.

Your car should run with the DPR disconnected, and to test sensor plate rest position, put your hand under the sensor plate and have someone start the car while you push it up. When you can feel the at idle position tou could tweak the rest spring to near that point. Then check it with the cobra head boot removed.
Good luck
I had a similar issue, though I was too rich and had a rough idle, it turned out the CTS and Thermo-time switch were the issue.
DPR's are pretty much working or dead. If you have any current coming out of one it is likely doing its job.
If it causes the plate to drop below the stop position it is likely not the non starting issue.

Thank you

The plate does seems to low. I have looked at Bentley's as well as the spring. I tried to post a pic of it but I couldn't because I did not have a url for one. I just did a test on the DPR with the harness attached. I grounded the multimeter and put the amperage on pin 2 and it gave me a reading of .26-.27 .

Let me go play with that spring. I have the gap I need between the plate and the plunger, but the Plate still sits too low. Maybe 2 nickels width. I will try your test, then start adjust from there. Should the car be a normal temp or cold is fine? I can click my Cold Start Valve toggle to let it run as long as I want to get to temp.

Thanks again. Im between my laptop and the car so I will be posting.

[elementsoffury]

You need something to host the pictures before you can put them on here. Photobucket is free, gives you url easily, and makes it all a snap if you have a smartphone.

The way you are trying to test the DPR is improper and may hurt things. It doesn't really tell you much that way. What needs to happen is basically you remove the harness connector. Make 2 jumper wires that plug into the DPR and the harness connector, so that basically the harness connector is plugged back in, but your wires are actually completing the circuit. Then you cut one of the wires and put your meter on both loose ends. I forget which wire it is, but you should know right away depending on the meters read out, if you have the correct wire or not.

The stop position of the plunger in the fuel dizzy is mechanical, so if it's pushing the plate down too far; its because either the dizzy plunger stop screw (extremely sensitive) is not in far enough. Or the plate basic adjustment is off (it's the 3mm mixture screw).

Are you positive you don't have any vacuum leaks? Fuel injector o-rings can cause some leaks. As you noticed when lifting the pressurized plate; it takes a good amount of force to lift that plate. So you really need good strong vacuum to lift it. Crankcase breather hose ok? Maybe isolate alot of the vacuum hoses by removing the booster vacuum hose at the back right of the intake manifold and plugging the whole with lots of tape, but you would still have to keep the vacuum hose that goes to the knock box connected I believe.

[elementsoffury]

Meter goes on the bare wire ends. Blades go into the removed harness connector. Don't mix up the wires.

[malcolm123]

You need something to host the pictures before you can put them on here. Photobucket is free, gives you url easily, and makes it all a snap if you have a smartphone.

The way you are trying to test the DPR is improper and may hurt things. It doesn't really tell you much that way. What needs to happen is basically you remove the harness connector. Make 2 jumper wires that plug into the DPR and the harness connector, so that basically the harness connector is plugged back in, but your wires are actually completing the circuit. Then you cut one of the wires and put your meter on both loose ends. I forget which wire it is, but you should know right away depending on the meters read out, if you have the correct wire or not.

The stop position of the plunger in the fuel dizzy is mechanical, so if it's pushing the plate down too far; its because either the dizzy plunger stop screw (extremely sensitive) is not in far enough. Or the plate basic adjustment is off (it's the 3mm mixture screw).

Are you positive you don't have any vacuum leaks? Fuel injector o-rings can cause some leaks. As you noticed when lifting the pressurized plate; it takes a good amount of force to lift that plate. So you really need good strong vacuum to lift it. Crankcase breather hose ok? Maybe isolate alot of the vacuum hoses by removing the booster vacuum hose at the back right of the intake manifold and plugging the whole with lots of tape, but you would still have to keep the vacuum hose that goes to the knock box connected I believe.

Ok, Updates. thanks for the harness pic also. I will do that. I wasn't worrying about the DPr that much until I figured out my Plate problem. YES, It was low! Dropped every time the system got pressure. So I looked at the spring under it last night. It did not make physical sense to me as to how I could get more lift out of this thing. So about 30mins ago, I went and tried the previous adviser's test in this post. The lift the plate to find a decent starting idle. That did not work. I could feel the plate being sucked up. SOO, I looked at the spring again, and again, then Bentley, then again. After studying it, I thought to myself, if this spring was on top of this clamp, then the spring wouldn't bottom out every time the plate was dropped. So I moved the spring on top of the clamp! The plate jumped up about 2" from where it used to sit. So I bent the spring down in intervals to get close to my nickle. Wel this worked. The spring was tucked under the clamp with nothing to stop it but the bottom.

Now after a refresh and clearer head, I will go back out and see if I can get the gap set between the plate and the plunger!! Im sure it will not start without the Cold Start Valve jumper, because after testing my Idle Stabilizer Valve's harness and the continuity of the valve itself. I guess it's dead because it will not hum for nothing. I will borrow my cousin's again off his 86' GTI.

It's like starting all over, but Im getting closer. Thanks

Now let me go re-study your harness pic!!

[malcolm123]

Meter goes on the bare wire ends. Blades go into the removed harness connector. Don't mix up the wires.

Gotcha! Makes Sense too!!!
I will post my results once I get to that point. Im just taking my time. Rushing always screws stuff up.

Thanks!

[malcolm123]

Also testing image sharing:

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/...0/93f32cbc.jpg

This is before I discovered and reset the spring yesterday.

[nbvwfan]

Looks to low to me

[malcolm123]

Looks to low to me

Yeah, this is before I figured out that the spring was between the clamp and bottoming out. This was under pressure. I have it there now. Will adjust to plunger gap later.

Thanks

[elementsoffury]

Yea, way too low. Air will just rush by it instead of lifting it. Set the rest position, then set the roller height via the 3mm screw....yada yada. Never try to adjust the dizzy plunger stop screw.

If you find that you need to center the plate in the bore: a piece of printer paper, one wrap around it does a pretty good job.

If that sticker wasn't faded away, your car probably would've been running a while ago. It has a little diagram I think and some good info.

[malcolm123]

Yea, way too low. Air will just rush by it instead of lifting it. Set the rest position, then set the roller height via the 3mm screw....yada yada. Never try to adjust the dizzy plunger stop screw.

If you find that you need to center the plate in the bore: a piece of printer paper, one wrap around it does a pretty good job.

If that sticker wasn't faded away, your car probably would've been running a while ago. It has a little diagram I think and some good info.

Thanks. I didnt mess with it today. Gotta get another ISV. But it's centered without any friction.

I will post Updates tomorrow. Thanks to you all. Im still on it though!!

[malcolm123]

So I received my Idle Stabilizer Valve today. Installed it and plugged it up. Turned on my Cold start valve and turned the car over. Let the CSV stay on for about 10 seconds then turned it off. The car kept running. So now Im playing with the air flow sensor screw trying to get my gap between the plate and the plunger. While at the same time trying to maintain m nickle width.

My original plate problem was the spring. It was between the clamp therefore letting the plate bottom out leaving it too low with a gap. So when I move the spring on top of the clamp, the plate lifted up very high. Then I bent the spring down to get my nickle gap. Problem is I think I set the plate gap with the air flow sensor screw turned all the way out counter clockwise. I think this but me in a position to where I cant get enough play in the plate to set the plate and plunger gap.

Im working on it in the morning but just wondering if I should set the air flow mixer screw to a certain setting, then adjust my spring to set the plate to plunger gap? Im thinking about counting the air flow mixture screw turns from wide open to closed. Set the air flow mixture screw to somewhere in the middle of open to close, then setting the plate height to my nickle width.

Right now, the car only idles. When I attempt to give it gas it dies. I was able to give it gas a one time, but I couldn't find a good starting sweet spot with the air flow mixture screw. Whats the best way to get a starting point on the air flow mixture screw, plate gap and plunger without removing the Dizzy?

Thanks in advance!

[malcolm123]

I still need to make a few adjustments. I think Im running a little rich. Getting some blue smoke from exuast. Car revs up ok, small delay, but seems to be a minor adjustment. Now that I have a consistent idle, im going run some Seafome through the intake as well as add it to the gas. I have about a .25 take right now. Or I may just run some Lucus in the tank. Im still at it.


Thanks