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    Thread: I need a shotgun

    1. Member Visheau's Avatar
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      08-13-2012 10:55 PM #1
      Ok, 'need' is subjective, but I own pistols, a couple bolt guns, a semi-auto 22lr plinker, but no shotgun.

      I prefer a semi-auto for skeet shooting purposes but a pump action is probably fine. At first I wanted a pistol grip, no stock, tacticool model for the house, but I think I'd rather a multi purpose gun that can do some trap shooting, maybe shoot at birds one day, though I don't really see the appeal in that.

      Any opinions on the usual suspects or maybe something similar that I haven't considered?

      Remington 870, Mossberg 500/590, Benelli Nova... any others? I'd like to spend under $500 but a little over for the right gun is, of course, worth it

    2. 08-14-2012 12:25 AM #2
      1) Avoid non-stocked shotguns. Unless you're breaching doors...ignore it.

      2) Rethink shotguns for home defense. The myth of the house defense shotgun is overdone.

      3) Any of the models you posted are fine. I'd probably rank them 870 --- Nova --- Mossberg (really don't like Mossbergs, namely the safety).

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      08-14-2012 08:27 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post

      3) Any of the models you posted are fine. I'd probably rank them 870 --- Nova --- Mossberg (really don't like Mossbergs, namely the safety).

      I would second this. I like my Remington, even if it just the 887, it works really well. The 870 is incredible.

      With the right shopping around you can probably find a good semi for <$500.

    4. Member Power5's Avatar
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      08-14-2012 08:47 AM #4
      Beretta 3901 auto for around $650. Its a beretta so its quality.

      Mossberg 930 is cheaper at about $450. CZ712 is a little more but still under $500.


      Autos have a lower capacity though. Those are the ones I have looked at. I want the beretta but not sure if its in my budget.
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      08-14-2012 11:17 AM #5
      Me on the other hand, prefer Mossbergs. I prefer the ergonomics of the tang safety. I prefer the fact that you can change the ejector yourself with one screw, as opposed to the 870's ejector, which is riveted in and needs to be drilled out for replacement. The Mossberg is more user serviceable. I prefer the lack of a flap to push down to load the gun, so there's no way for the shell to get hung up, like they sometimes do if you're loading quickly on an 870. Combined with Remington's slipping quality of late, I'll go with a brand new Mossberg...at your price range. If I wanted something nicer, I'd gladly take an 870 Wingmaster or an 870 Marine Magnum. I'm a sucker for that nickel plating.

      Benelli Novas just feel downright cheap to me. It isn't until you get to the higher priced Benellis that they really shine IMO.

      For your price, I'd go with a 590A1, or 500 Mariner. The 590s really are outstanding shotguns.
      Last edited by Señor Peligro; 08-14-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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    6. Junior Member driggity's Avatar
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      08-14-2012 11:21 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      2) Rethink shotguns for home defense. The myth of the house defense shotgun is overdone.
      As a gun n00b who had always heard that shotguns are the best choice for home defense I'm curious as to why that should be rethought? What do you prefer for home defense?

    7. 08-14-2012 02:12 PM #7
      While I'm sure it'll be controversial to many folks, the shotgun is not the amazing tool people seem to think it is for home defense.

      1) If you're using it to "scare" someone by racking the weapon for that scary sound...you're already behind the power curve, and likely not prepared to shoot someone.

      2) Low capacity, and a manual of arms which is just a bit faster than a musket-loading rifle. Unless you run a lot of classes with a shotgun, or use one frequently for competition, you're going to be in a world of hurt when you need to reload because you've missed or the fight takes longer than you hoped.

      3) If you're using good buckshot, you're now responsible for 9 projectiles every time you pull the trigger. Home defense is the last time/place you want to be slinging lead carelessly.

      4) Shotguns do not scatter like they do in movies. At 15-25 yards, a spread pattern will still be relatively small. At very close distances (10-20 feet inside of a house) the spread can be less than 3-4". It's not some cure-all "blow everything in sight away" tool like you see portrayed on tv.

      5) Recoil. If you're using worthwhile ammunition, most shotguns have pretty stout recoil...so I don't know why people load up really hot buckshot/slugs and then insist their wife can use it in a gunfight.

      Will a shotgun kill someone? You betcha. But go to a range, set up scenarios (use 2-4 targets) and try running some drills, and see how incredibly slow you are with the shotgun. Now if you have a Saiga magazine-fed shotgun with 8-10 rounds per magazine, and spare magazines handy, perhaps you're better off. The shotgun is an excellent firearm because it can be used for hunting, defense, etc...but if you're competent with a rifle/handgun, you're probably better off using it.

      It all boils down to personal opinion. Most people seem to assume it will play out like the movies: they'll come face to face with a single perp who freezes in motion right before you put a huge smattering of ball bearings through him as you stand there in your undies. Fighting with a shotgun is really freakin' hard. I've done a decent amount of practice and it's still tough.

    8. Member SpclAgentD's Avatar
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      08-14-2012 02:55 PM #8
      x2

      I've always been taught that the best weapon for home/self defense is what you are most effective with. No point in using an AR (for example) if you can't operate it effectively. And if you are more lethal with throwing knives than a pistol, by all means...

      The point is that firearms are just a tool. It's the operator that makes the tool effective
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    9. Member GTIGUY!'s Avatar
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      08-14-2012 11:06 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by SpclAgentD View Post

      The point is that firearms are just a tool. It's the operator that makes the tool effective
      This guy said it.. Practice with what you got, .22 to 12 gauge.. Point of aim =point of impact. Choose the correct ammo for the job.
      "never under estimate the enemies ability to google."

    10. Member Power5's Avatar
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      08-15-2012 08:07 AM #10
      A slug will do much more damage after going through a wall as well.

      Any round is deadly after going through a drywall house wall.
      Last edited by Power5; 08-15-2012 at 08:23 AM.
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    11. Member compy222's Avatar
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      08-15-2012 02:32 PM #11
      home defense is best served by a dog, very bright flashlight, and decent caliber reliable handgun. i do own a shot gun. we have one stairwell that leads directly to our one upstairs room and it makes sense as the distance is about 15 feet with nothing behind that wall. you could easily take cover behind the bed and shoot at the top of stairwell from cover.

      anyway, back to shotguns. i have my grandfather's 1969 ithaca model 37 12ga. it's a wonderful shotgun, that fired flawlessly after a good cleaning and 30 years of storage. it also slam-fires, which is hilarious fun. it's quite accurate. overall, a great hand me down. finding a nice used 870, 500, or M37 will be a great choice. i can hunt deer, waterfowl, pheasant, shoot skeet, trap, sporting clays, while still having a decent home defense gun.

      good luck in your search...
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      Quote Originally Posted by SchrickVR6 View Post
      It's composed at all speeds and at all times...it just feels like you're holding the leash on a 150lb pit bull and praying you don't see a squirrel.

    12. 08-15-2012 03:59 PM #12
      I think my stance really boils down to a simple fact: gunfighting over marksmanship.

      I'll be the first to tell you that I'm not some amazing marksman, quite the opposite. Far too many people get hung up on caliber, or the fallacy that one round or two rounds will end a threat. The reality is that in a shooting, the chances of the following:

      1) reloads.
      2) multiple shots
      3) being fired at
      4) potentially being wounded
      5) fighting in the dark with smoke, flashes and loud noise
      6) malfunctions

      ...is very high.

      A lot of folks seems to be hung up on the "TV" version of a home defense scenario.

      TV Scenario: You hear the door break open, you grab your .44 magnum revolver, stand in the hallway. A masked man with a knife mutters some unintelligible threat and runs down the hallway at you. You stoically stand and fire a single justice-laden round of ammunition through the bad guys head.

      Reality: You wake, startled to a smashing sound. You grab your firearm in the dark, bleary eyed. You step into the living room, and see dark shadows moving, and you hear someone yelling at you. You flick on a light and see several men armed with tools or firearms. Your eyes bug out of your head, and one of the men lunges for you. You shoot, a lot. Bullets start punching through windows, couches, family pictures. Your ears are ringing instantly and you see a flash across the room as the TV behind you shatters. You trip over the dog as you fumble to reload, and you see one of the men dragging himself out of the doorway, as another runs down the hallway away from you (possibly toward your children?). The room is filled with gunsmoke, and broken glass, a barking dog, and your heart is beating outside of your chest...

      A little silly, but you get the point. You will have to "run" the gun...not just pull the trigger. You'll be panicking, and breathing hard. You will run out of ammunition before you thought possible. No one is standing still. It'll be loud and scary. "Marksmanship" and the caliber of your weapon will account for maybe 20% of what's going on. Skill, training, and being able to handle your weapon regardless of the situation is huge.

      If you're lucky, you fire one round, and the bad guy is dead or runs off - but if not, you've started something you have to finish. This is why I would never grab a shotgun unless I spent countless hours running it...learning how to reload as fast as possible, dealing with malfunctions, etc. There is just way too much at stake to rely on the size or intimidation of a firearm.

      I only ever came close to shooting a handful of times...but even that really change my opinion on damn near everything. It killed a lot of illusions I had. Same thing for our force-on-force training. Almost all of your training goes right out of the freakin' window. It's sad, but true.

      So, any home defense weapon should be one you are intimately associated with...it should be completely second nature to operate in a stressful environment. If you're that comfortable with a shotgun, go nuts. I'd just advise against buying one at the local gun shop and stuffing it in your closet. You're setting yourself up for failure.


    13. Member Power5's Avatar
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      08-15-2012 05:02 PM #14
      I like your scenario. Its accurate as far as feelings I have had. Not a gun situation but in any unfriendly encounter when a BG is threatening me. A drunk outside the bar or any other fight or flight situation. However, I noticed nothing till the threat was gone. I was calm and talking the guy down the whole time. I mean, I was not jumpy or shaking from the adrenalin till the situation was over and we had gone our separate ways. Then I was shaking for about 15 minutes. And there were no weapons involved. Maybe I did not envision it as a life or death situation though. Alcohol was probably a benefit as well.
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    14. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      08-15-2012 05:31 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Visheau View Post
      Remington 870, Mossberg 500/590, Benelli Nova... any others? I'd like to spend under $500 but a little over for the right gun is, of course, worth it
      I will add my $.02 from my experience and say that the VAST majority of military shotguns I've seen were Mossberg 500s. In Iraq I saw some really worn out Mossy 500s that would just work and work and work. No oil, no cleaning, no maintenance at all. They were "on duty" 24x7. Rust, dirt, sand, soil... and they still worked. Those things simply won't give up.

      obin
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    15. 08-15-2012 05:54 PM #16
      Wasn't the Mossberg the issue shotgun though? I know I've seen HSLD fellas with fancy Benelli semi-autos, but I thought the general purpose military issue was a Mossberg.

    16. 08-15-2012 07:44 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      Wasn't the Mossberg the issue shotgun though? I know I've seen HSLD fellas with fancy Benelli semi-autos, but I thought the general purpose military issue was a Mossberg.
      for me its more of a reason to get a mossberg its been battle tested and abused the crap out of by the military
      this will definitely be my first shot gun the 3in1 combo.

    17. Member Visheau's Avatar
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      08-15-2012 09:07 PM #18
      I had seen somewhere that 'special forces' troops were getting Benelli semi-autos (M4?) for 'cave clearing' purposes

      but yeah, I just want something inexpensive, reliable and fun to shoot. I'll probably go with the 870, I have two coworkers that use them for everything and swear by them, but if a mossberg could be had for significantly less, I might do that

      I like the discussion though, please continue

    18. 08-15-2012 11:38 PM #19
      Well, when you say shotgun - as mentioned here, it's pretty much Mossberg vs. 870.

      Just pick one you like. I know Magpul has released a bunch of goodies for the 870. I ran the 870 in the patrol, and it was good. I didn't like the length of the stock, but they were reliable. Shotguns are inherently so simple, I believe it'd be tough to find a really crappy shotgun.

      I believe you get issues when you move into the cheapest of the auto-loaders because you're introducing more moving parts, the gas system etc. Mossy and 870 you'll be fine. Go finger bang some at the store, see what you like best and what your wallet likes best.

    19. Member Visheau's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:45 AM #20
      the store is where I tend to do most of my finger banging anyway, so that should be easy

    20. Geriatric Member AKADriver's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 03:05 PM #21
      I don't disagree with anything you've said (and honestly, it's the reason I've never really been interested in owning an explicit "defense" gun). But, don't these points contradict each other?:

      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      3) If you're using good buckshot, you're now responsible for 9 projectiles every time you pull the trigger. Home defense is the last time/place you want to be slinging lead carelessly.

      4) Shotguns do not scatter like they do in movies. At 15-25 yards, a spread pattern will still be relatively small. At very close distances (10-20 feet inside of a house) the spread can be less than 3-4". It's not some cure-all "blow everything in sight away" tool like you see portrayed on tv.
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    21. 08-16-2012 03:57 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by AKADriver View Post
      I don't disagree with anything you've said (and honestly, it's the reason I've never really been interested in owning an explicit "defense" gun). But, don't these points contradict each other?:



      No. Actually they don't. Because ricochet.

      Who's to say that there's not a brass lamp or granite statue in the path of those 9 ball bearings moving at 1320fps.

      For the OP. I have run both the Rem. 870 and the Moss. 500.
      For the money, you will not find a better weapon than either of these.
      Yes. there have been issues with both, but they are not problems that a competant gunsmith can't solve.
      I am biased towards the Mossberg 500 but for ergonomic reasons. I like the safety on top of the receiver. Honestly, that's really the only reason for my bias.
      Last edited by dubraycer36; 08-16-2012 at 04:05 PM.
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    22. Member IJM's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 04:55 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Visheau View Post
      Ok, 'need' is subjective, but I own pistols, a couple bolt guns, a semi-auto 22lr plinker, but no shotgun.

      I prefer a semi-auto for skeet shooting purposes but a pump action is probably fine. At first I wanted a pistol grip, no stock, tacticool model for the house, but I think I'd rather a multi purpose gun that can do some trap shooting, maybe shoot at birds one day, though I don't really see the appeal in that.

      Any opinions on the usual suspects or maybe something similar that I haven't considered?

      Remington 870, Mossberg 500/590, Benelli Nova... any others? I'd like to spend under $500 but a little over for the right gun is, of course, worth it
      Quote Originally Posted by mk2-ing-it View Post
      I have the same gun except it has a wooden stock and fore-end. Mossberg calls it their field/security combo. It comes with a 28" field barrel (three chokes, vent rib, bead sights, and ported, plus an 18.5" ported "security" barrel, and a pistol grip kit. I like it because I can use the field barrel for trap/skeet or hunting (I don't hunt, but might in the future) and I can throw the short barrel on and use it for HD purposes otherwise. It holds 5 rounds in a magazine and one in the chamber.

      As far as HD use, I use #4 buckshot, which IMO has less tendancy for overpenetration than #00. Fortunately my place has solid brick exterior walls and thick plaster on the inside.









      Quote Originally Posted by dubraycer36 View Post
      I am biased towards the Mossberg 500 but for ergonomic reasons. I like the safety on top of the receiver. Honestly, that's really the only reason for my bias.
      This is the one of the main reasons I chose the 500 over the 870 myself.

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