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    Thread: Lease haters, consider this.

    1. Member Farnsworth's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 11:30 AM #1
      Up until 1990, automotive reliability generally sucked, but cars were durable and serviceable.

      Through the 1990s leading into the 2000s, this completely reversed. Cars are as reliable as ever, but durability is engineered to evaporate right at the end of the warranty, and serviceability is just about non-existent.

      (The above is my learned opinion, having owned and driven cars from all 3 auto-producing continents for a long time.)

      With automakers making cars designed to implode after e.g. 36 mos/36k miles, why keep a DD - something that has to be more or less perfect - past the warranty?

      That said, why buy? Leasing makes total sense for a DD IMO.
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    2. Member VierSpeed's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 11:40 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by Farnsworth View Post
      Why buy?
      The above is my learned opinion
      IMO
      While your opinion is what it is based on your own experiences, mine is different based on my own experiences.

      There are a few other threads about leasing versus buying; all end badly with heated flame wars and nobody giving in to see that there's two very good sides to the debate.

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    3. 08-16-2012 11:41 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by Farnsworth View Post
      Up until 1990, automotive reliability generally sucked, but cars were durable and serviceable.

      Through the 1990s leading into the 2000s, this completely reversed. Cars are as reliable as ever, but durability is engineered to evaporate right at the end of the warranty, and serviceability is just about non-existent.

      (The above is my learned opinion, having owned and driven cars from all 3 auto-producing continents for a long time.)

      With automakers making cars designed to implode after e.g. 36 mos/36k miles, why keep a DD - something that has to be more or less perfect - past the warranty?

      That said, why buy? Leasing makes total sense for a DD IMO.
      I am a fan of leasing, but I will admit there are times when having a paid for car is desirable.

      I'd have absolutely zero problem buying a 2 year old Chevy Silverado or F150, for example. Or a used Xterra. But I would only do this with the intent to keep the thing till it starts costing me big bucks to continue driving it - more than 5 years.

      But for a car...a DD? Give me a lease and a new car every 2 - 3 years.
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    4. 08-16-2012 11:42 AM #4
      People don't lease cars because of reliability or just being covered by a warranty while under the lease term. They lease because the payments are lower, they can get a nicer car than normally, and then hand it back in 3 yrs and try another car easily.

      New cars don't even need warranties. They are new cars.
      Quote Originally Posted by Aseras View Post
      I got the (RX8) engine replaced at 112K miles not because it failed but because I hit a pig on the interstate.

    5. Junior Member PaulGiz's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 11:46 AM #5
      I drive 20,000+ miles per year. Leasing never makes sense for me.

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    6. Member Egz's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 11:48 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by PaulGiz View Post
      I drive 20,000+ miles per year. Leasing never makes sense for me.
      This. When leases don't stick silly premiums for a higher mileage allowance, then it will be more attractive.

    7. Member Farnsworth's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 11:51 AM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Waarp View Post
      New cars don't even need warranties. They are new cars.
      The point is, what happens when 36k miles is done, and the car starts falling apart? (Literally, in the case of my Maz-duh.)

      If you bought it, now you're stuck with it. If you leased it, well, you're giving it back before the out-of-pocket repairs (or endless counts of "live with it," e.g. live with 2nd gear going away) begin.

      Seems like a good point most people overlook.

      Now, if you're after a "toy" that you're going to mod and/or race extensively, then of course buying is the only choice. But toys make lousy DD's, again IMO.
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      08-16-2012 11:52 AM #8
      First off, why would I want a new car? Further more, why would I want to pay for something that's not even mine? No thanks. I'll stick to buying.
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      08-16-2012 11:56 AM #9
      When I can lease a car that lets me have 100k miles in 3 years instead of the typical 3 years/36k miles deal, sure, I'll lease.
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    10. 08-16-2012 11:58 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by Waarp View Post
      People don't lease cars because of reliability or just being covered by a warranty while under the lease term. They lease because the payments are lower, they can get a nicer car than normally, and then hand it back in 3 yrs and try another car easily.

      New cars don't even need warranties. They are new cars.
      Yeah, that's total horse****.

      Then again, I own a VW.
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    11. 08-16-2012 11:59 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by PaulGiz View Post
      I drive 20,000+ miles per year. Leasing never makes sense for me.

      Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2

      And that's part of the maturity in evaluating your options. For you it won't make sense. Bravo. I wish more people had that ability to look at options and realize its not going to work FOR THEM (rather than just saying "leasing sucks, I put too many miles on a car..."
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    12. Member aethelwulf's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:00 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Farnsworth View Post
      The point is, what happens when 36k miles is done, and the car starts falling apart? (Literally, in the case of my Maz-duh.)

      If you bought it, now you're stuck with it. If you leased it, well, you're giving it back before the out-of-pocket repairs (or endless counts of "live with it," e.g. live with 2nd gear going away) begin.

      Seems like a good point most people overlook.

      Now, if you're after a "toy" that you're going to mod and/or race extensively, then of course buying is the only choice. But toys make lousy DD's, again IMO.
      Most cars don't start falling apart at 36k, and even if you buy it, it's still possible to sell it (in case you didn't know).
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    13. 08-16-2012 12:01 PM #13
      Cars rarely implode after 3 years. The most economical approach is almost always to buy a car and drive it as long as possible.

      However, if you want a new car every few years and don't drive much, then lease.

      Or if you must have more car than you can afford to pay for up front, then lease (or re-examine your priorities).

    14. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:03 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by MB_Fahrer View Post
      First off, why would I want a new car? Further more, why would I want to pay for something that's not even mine? No thanks. I'll stick to buying.
      Because you clearly don't understand the concept of leasing?
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    15. Member genjy's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:03 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Farnsworth View Post
      The point is, what happens when 36k miles is done, and the car starts falling apart? (Literally, in the case of my Maz-duh.)

      If you bought it, now you're stuck with it. If you leased it, well, you're giving it back before the out-of-pocket repairs (or endless counts of "live with it," e.g. live with 2nd gear going away) begin.

      Seems like a good point most people overlook.

      Now, if you're after a "toy" that you're going to mod and/or race extensively, then of course buying is the only choice. But toys make lousy DD's, again IMO.
      But most cars don't start falling apart after 36k.

    16. Member horsty69's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:06 PM #16
      We always have one leased car...we like change and its cheaper to lease for three years and then get something else instead of buy on a three year term and sell it. Leases are great for certain circumstances..buying is great for certain circumstances as well.

    17. 08-16-2012 12:07 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by bbk View Post
      Cars rarely implode after 3 years. The most economical approach is almost always to buy a car and drive it as long as possible.

      However, if you want a new car every few years and don't drive much, then lease.

      Or if you must have more car than you can afford to pay for up front, then lease (or re-examine your priorities).

      Again, it lies in priorities.

      I GENERALLY agree that the "cheapest" way to simply own a set of wheels is to buy something 2 years old, and drive the wheels off it.

      However, as cars grow more advanced, my feeling is that general idea is outdated.

      I firmly believe servicing costs for these new, technologically advanced vehicles is going up, and owning a car out of warranty on the other side of 50K is financially risky.

      And I have said this before, but we need to examine how we buy and use cars. Most of us on this board keep cars - new or used - no more than 4 years.

      EVEN USED, you have to pay a monthly payment (unless you are sitting on a pile of cash). My arguement against this scenario is when you add the cost to buy the car, and servicing costs to maintain a car between 36 and 75K.

      Add it all up and my arguement is it would likely be close enough to a lease payment such that, given a choice between the two, most people would rather pay more and get the shiny new car.

      I know I would.
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    18. Member horsty69's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:07 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by horsty69 View Post
      We always have one leased car...we like change and its cheaper to lease for three years and then get something else instead of buy on a three year term and sell it. Leases are great for certain circumstances..buying is great for certain circumstances as well.
      My last lease was a 2007 wrangler...I sold it at the end of the term for more then the buy out was and put no money down when I started...it was an very cheap 3 years of ownership.

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      08-16-2012 12:07 PM #19
      There are people who like leases and there are some who don't. Some who will only buy new and those that will only buy used. Some that prefer ketchup on their eggs (yuk!) and some who don't. If we didn't all have individual preferences, we'd all be driving a beige Camry.

      What no one can argue is that leases meet some folks needs, real or perceived, and they do provide a steady supply of used low mileage vehicles for those who would like to buy them.

      Can't we just get along?

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      08-16-2012 12:08 PM #20
      Always doing a lease is a good option if you don't mind having a car payment for the rest of your driving days.

      Some people like to waste money and others would rather pay for something and actually own it. This is just my opinion. There are pros and cons for each.
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      08-16-2012 12:08 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by FissionMailed View Post
      When I can lease a car that lets me have 100k miles in 3 years instead of the typical 3 years/36k miles deal, sure, I'll lease.
      Oddly enough, I was at an Acura dealership back in summer 2009 and was quoted about $400/mo for a 3 or 4yr/100k lease on a new TSX. I was not interested in leasing (I was there looking at a CPO TSX), but thought it was reasonable for a high mileage lease.

    22. Member caj1's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:08 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by MB_Fahrer View Post
      First off, why would I want a new car? Further more, why would I want to pay for something that's not even mine? No thanks. I'll stick to buying.
      Some people don't like to buy depreciating assets..


      Whether leasing is good or bad cannot be generalized.

    23. Member VR6 NRG's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:12 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by PaulGiz View Post
      I drive 20,000+ miles per year. Leasing never makes sense for me.

      Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2
      you are completely wrong. leasing makes perfect sene for you. Just do a lease for 20k, 25k miles per year.
      think of it this way. if you finance a new car, and plan to put 60k miles on it in 3 years, you now have a fairly new car with an excess of miles on it and now you want to trade that car in. The value is well below normal because of the excess miles. So you owe $20k on the car but its only worth $15k because of the excess miles. You are now $5k in the hole to get a new car.

      now on a 3 year lease where you predict 20k miles/year you are allowed to drive that 60k total miles with the bank knowing that. 3 years rolls around and it's time to hand in the car. you simply give them your keys with both you and the bank knowing the car was going to have 60k miles on it. now if you kept good care of the car you won't have any penalties for wear n tear, but if you didnt take care of the car you may owe some money.

      I have been selling audi's for 9 years and to ALL of my customers that drive a lot, i highly recommend for them to lease a vehicle for this reason. not having negative equity in a few years on a lease vs. the possibility of being way upside down if you finance.

      now if you like keeping your cars more than 3 years, financing makes more sense, but you still end up with a high mileage car at the end that is worth a lot less.

      my own car is a good example. I leased a 2012 Audi TT 12 months, ago, i paid for 15k miles/year. but i now have 18k miles on the car. so i went over. but i don't keep my cars 3 years so i really could have done a 10k/year lease because why pay for the extra miles/year if i know i won't keep the car until the end.
      Next week my new 2013 S4 arrives, and this time i will do a 10k mile lease, drop my payment nearly $60/month knowing that i will trade the car in when something new comes out. This would not work out well if i was financing the cars and putting money down each time.
      Last edited by VR6 NRG; 08-16-2012 at 12:17 PM.
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      08-16-2012 12:13 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Farnsworth View Post
      With automakers making cars designed to implode after e.g. 36 mos/36k miles, why keep a DD - something that has to be more or less perfect - past the warranty?
      Well...no. That's huge assumption. All the cheap people I know buy reliable cars and drive them until the wheels fall off.

      not sure what implode means, but I'd rather pay a couple of repair bills into a depreciate asset than perpetually renting depreciating assets
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      08-16-2012 12:14 PM #25
      If I could get a lease payment and not incur mileage penalties for going over 15k a year (and also not have to pay out the @$$ for adding extra mileage to my lease payment) then I would lease. But it makes no sense for me.

    26. 08-16-2012 12:14 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by nstevic01 View Post
      Always doing a lease is a good option if you don't mind having a car payment for the rest of your driving days.

      Some people like to waste money and others would rather pay for something and actually own it. This is just my opinion. There are pros and cons for each.
      Ahem...

      http://www.leaseguide.com/Articles/car-rental-lease.htm

      It's also true with car leasing that you have nothing to show for your money. However....you've paid 30%-60% less than loan payments for the same car, and you have specifically paid for your car's depreciation, and only the depreciation, not the entire vehicle cost.

      The money you've lost to depreciation is exactly the same money that is lost by someone who has purchased the same car with a loan. His car depreciates exactly the same amount as your leased car, but he pays for the entire vehicle. He therefore has nothing to show for that part of the money that is lost to depreciation if he sells or trades. That money is gone, for both a buyer and a leaser.
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      08-16-2012 12:14 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by caj1 View Post
      Some people don't like to buy depreciating assets..


      Whether leasing is good or bad cannot be generalized.
      Well said.
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    28. 08-16-2012 12:16 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      Well...no. That's huge assumption. All the cheap people I know buy reliable cars and drive them until the wheels fall off.

      not sure what implode means, but I'd rather pay a couple of repair bills into a depreciate asset than perpetually renting depreciating assets
      Leasing is NOT renting. Read the article I posted above.

      Leasing is merely financing the depreciation of a car, versus financing the entire cost.
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    29. 08-16-2012 12:17 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by nstevic01 View Post
      Always doing a lease is a good option if you don't mind having a car payment for the rest of your driving days.

      Some people like to waste money and others would rather pay for something and actually own it. This is just my opinion. There are pros and cons for each.
      Leasing is good if you know what kind of mileage you do annually, pay for what you use, and like to change cars up.

      Also with buying, especially new, it really only makes sense if you're going to keep the car for awhile..like having a 2003 model. If you buy a car and finance, take a 60 month term and sell the car after 36 months. In theory, that really wasn't any different than a lease.

      As said above, leasing is not renting...it is another form of financing.

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      08-16-2012 12:18 PM #30
      Well, given how often I change cars, plus the trouble I am having getting rid of this piece of **** hybrid, I will probably lease for the rest of my life.
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    31. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-16-2012 12:19 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by MB_Fahrer View Post
      First off, why would I want a new car?
      Improved safety, new features/technology, new styling, it's NEW so the only wear and tear is what you put on it.

      Quote Originally Posted by MB_Fahrer View Post
      Further more, why would I want to pay for something that's not even mine? No thanks. I'll stick to buying.
      You're going to be paying for a vehicle one way or the other. If you graph cost of ownership, there is a point where cost to own line crosses the cost to lease line. At that point, you will be paying MORE to drive an older car with more wear and tear than a brand new car. That is a stupid and short-sighted way to spend money IMO.

      Buying may be a good idea for you if:
      -You drive more than average miles per year
      -You have a need to modify
      -You put a lot of wear and tear on your vehicles and don't want to be forced to maintain the vehicle in good cosmetic condition
      -You eventually want to own an old vehicle and all that comes with that (out of warranty, increased wear and tear, increased repair costs, less safety/reliability, etc.)

      Leasing may be a good idea for you if:
      -You drive no more than the average Joe each year
      -You don't have a need to modify your vehicles
      -You like to get a new vehicle every 2-3 years
      -You don't want to deal with the hassle of owning an old car and all that comes with that
      -You don't want to deal with the hassle of selling your old car when you want a new one

    32. 08-16-2012 12:20 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Farnsworth View Post
      Up until 1990, automotive reliability generally sucked, but cars were durable and serviceable.

      Through the 1990s leading into the 2000s, this completely reversed. Cars are as reliable as ever, but durability is engineered to evaporate right at the end of the warranty, and serviceability is just about non-existent.
      There are so many gemeralisations in this that it's difficult to know where to begin, so I wont even bother fleshing out your 100,000ft view with details on complexity and feature set, etc. etc.

      However, I do want to pick up on one point. If cars today are "as reliable as ever" then it would mean they are at a reliability level roughly consistent with historical trends. Since you're asserting that cars used to be unreliable then saying modern cars are as reliable as ever means modern cars are similarly unreliable. We know you don't mean this, but it's a good thing to correct next time out.

    33. 08-16-2012 12:21 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by Beltfed View Post
      Leasing is good if you know what kind of mileage you do annually, pay for what you use, and like to change cars up.

      Also with buying, especially new, it really only makes sense if you're going to keep the car for awhile..like having a 2003 model. If you buy a car and finance, take a 60 month term and sell the car after 36 months. In theory, that really wasn't any different than a lease.

      As said above, leasing is not renting...it is another form of financing.
      This is a very HUGE and very VALID point.

      GIven two scenarios - a 3 year lease, and a 60 month purchase kept for 3 years, the car will depreciate at the same rate.

      People like to say that they don't have anything to show for it at the end of the lease....incorrect. Your payments are lower and you didn't (hopefully) put a monthly payment down on the lease. Instead of dumping that money into the loan (and getting the equity back out on the other side) you kept that money in the bank rather than tied up in a depreciating asset.

      THink of it this way: if you know you drive under 15K a year, and WILL trade the car in before it is paid off on a loan, then lease versus loan, it really doesn't matter - you will depreciate the car at the exact same rate. The difference is in how you finance: Do you want to dump all your money in the car now and get some of it back on the end, or so you want to only pay for the amount of the car you use up?
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    34. 08-16-2012 12:22 PM #34
      This topic comes up every so often. Let's review:

      Lease works for some folks

      Purchase (financing/outright) works for some folks

      And, to cover the whole field:

      Rent works for some folks

      Nothing works for some folks as well

      Bottom line, there is no absolute here one is better than another, as everyone's situation is different.

      Now, /discussion and thread

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      08-16-2012 12:23 PM #35
      Paying destination charges, dealer fees, gap insurance premiums for a new vehicle every three years will never make financial sense.

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