Good on you Tim. Very straight forward and respectfull answer.
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Good on you Tim. Very straight forward and respectfull answer.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Different strokes for different folks but I'll never pay sticker for a car.
I still say the dealer is sitting on a little money on the trade but no more than what others do. He might be right based upon local demand for Beetles.
All that being said, I think we've heard enough and the OP needs to reel it in a bit. Their expectations were not realistic. When the shock of what the numbers look like hit, it was time to take it out on the messenger.
There is no way you were not going to take some kind of significant hit selling or trading in a vehicle with that much negative equity. You weren't taken advantage of in this situation. The first deal may really be your problem and there's more of your handy work there than the dealer who sold it to you. It sounds like you didn't do your homework on either of these deals before you walked into the dealership and paid too much, financed too much, and may be paying too much on the cost of money.
"Just look at those wheels!"
The last 2 cars that I bought were negotiated over the internet and the phone. I'll never go to a dealership to negotiate prices again. My husband researched the car, even paid about $30 to get specific info on the car (hidden prices, what dealers don't tell you about the incentives they get, etc.), sent an e-mail on a Thursday to several dealers specifying exactly what we were looking for (and also letting them know that we know about any incentives and costs from the info pack we got) and told them that we were buying by Sunday from whoever gives us the best deal.
The next 2-3 days are constant e-mails and phonecalls from dealers trying to beat each others "deals", but by Sunday, we spend no more than 30 minutes at the dealership, enough time to check the car out and sign the papers. It's a VERY stress free and easy way to do it!
^^^You won't be sorry you did!! We did this on a 2009 Honda Accord and my Beetle. We sold the Accord back to the dealer and then negotiated for the Beetle.
Just make sure you do your research first......the info packet my husband sent for is called "Fighting Chance". It'll give you tons of info any car you're intersted in. Also how to do the e-mail/phonecall?fax negotiating, a current incentive/holdback report for the car, dealing with a trade in and specific info on the maker.
That Sunday morning, we were down to 2 dealers who were beating each others deals by $100 until we had them both saying that was as low as they could go, which they ended up at the same price. We went with the dealer with the better "hospitallity" deal (free oil changes and inspections for life, etc.). It's definitely the easiest way to get the best deal with no hassels!!
Like I said before, the trade in value is still low and most dealers low ball trade in value anywhere from $500-$2000. Thus, instead of having $1000-$2000 gross profit allotted in trade for a car in this price bracket, they have have that amount plus what they low balled the customer.
I was not expecting to get MSRP for my trade in, but expected around $20,000, which yes is few hundred above the average depreciation on the first year, which is 20%. I expected to get similar to an employee discount for my 2013, which I have gotten before from a dealer I did not even have any previous business with. So, no I think for a dealer who gets my service business and loyalty and patience, I was not being unrealistic. I know about depreciation and I know about trade-in, but asking for about $20,000 for my trade in and discount on the 2013, is not unreasonable for a total cost of of $32,000 for a loyal customer.
Yes, I do think that me being a female, emotional about car, and love for the car, where I have waited a year and kept my order in, did affect the deal.
I think the OP is about $2,000 worth of unreasonable. Go and shop those numbers to all the dealers in your area and see what you get. I suspect you'll get zero bites with those munbers.
The best out the door you're looking at is $34,000 unless the dealer is willing to make no money on the sell and no money on the trade. Nobody's business is worth that.
Dealers usually don't combine offers such as supplier/employee discounts + invoice pricing unless its a slow seller they are trying to get off the books. Don't expect something like that on a loaded Beetle. That's fantasy.
The interest rate paid on the first car along with the down payment are important in determining the amount of negative equity you have. Having negative equity can affect your financing on the second car. The dealer may have to use a bank that is willing to take on the additional risk of negative equity since the car is not worth the loan. You will pay more for the risk level. You're naive if you don't understand that.
You and the dealer are $4,000 apart from a deal and thats more than can be bridged in this deal. Walk away and go to another dealer. I think you'll find that the 4k you're looking for isn't going to happen particularly if you intend to bad mouth them instead of negotiating. I don't think you'll get everything you asked for. If I were the dealer, I'd cut my losses and accept your business as lost.
I totally agree with this! Well said. Eventually a dealer should not have to take the deal. People say you need to keep customers coming back, meanwhile so many times customers rape the dealers over and over and its not even worth it. What are they going to pass along one friend's sale who rapes the dealer too. I know its a rough economy and the customer's always right, but for once see it from the dealer network aspect. They need to make money somewhere or else why even sell us the cars.
I still fail to understand why the hell the OP thought buying a brand new Beetle in the interim until the other virtually exact same ordered one came in was a good idea, and why the OP didn't agree on a price and terms and sign papers BEFORE ordering the car?
Sorry OP, but this is plenty your fault. You've made numerous poor decisions and mistakes in this process. The dealer isn't much better, trying to play to heart strings banking on you taking it on their terms the day it comes in, as IMO the dealer too should've made sure that terms were agreed on prior to ordering the car (and given at least a rough ballpark projected trade-in for when the new car came in).
In my opinion, both the OP and the dealer did poor business and are both at fault, but most of it lies on the OP's side.
In defense of the dealer (never thought I'd say that), they probably knew at the time that they could sell that combo so there's no/low risk in the order. Secondly, the trade may or may not have existed way back when the order was placed. Who would've thought that the OP would present then an upside down trade.
The dealer will be fine. They've lost nothing. The OP will be fine once they check out what they are asking for and realize that its not practical.
OP, you are being extremely unreasonable here. I am an ex-VW salesman, and help everyone I know buy cars. I know how a deal works, and what the numbers mean:
1. You have been extremely fiscally irresponsible in your past deals, leading to an egregious amount of negative equity which you will still have to pay your financiers. You did that, not the dealership.
2. Expecting far more for your trade than it's worth is a show of poor judgement. I have seen many used B12 Turbos on the market for around $20k, many of which are certified and have fewer miles than yours. Certification costs the dealership money, so you have to take that into account to what they're asking for it when they sell it on. You are not entitled to their profit. See link for example of lower mileage Certified B12 Turbo retail value: http://tinyurl.com/c429c5t
3. The dealer has been absolutely transparent with you, and you are accusing them of being shady. There's a fair number of people (OP included) who think the dealership is sitting on $10k profit in every $30k car. Guess what? They're not. Most new cars have about $2,500 max profit margin between invoice and MSRP. That's your money to play with. Just because the dealership has "holdback" (money from the manufacturer, essentially to inspire the dealership to sell more of a particular model) doesn't mean you're entitled to it. It's their incentive. They give you a separate incentive.
The deal they are offering you is pretty good. The numbers are terrible because of your actions, not the dealerships. Honestly, you should save some face, apologize to Tim (who has my respect for addressing your issues professionally, despite you acting like a brat about it and trying to mar his reputation), and just admit that you can't afford the car at this time due to your poor choices.
Ultimately, any dollar amount under MSRP is a fair deal, and you definitely got a good one. I'm not sure why you expected to get so much more for your base Turbo, because the $4k difference you specify would require your trade-in with 10k miles to be worth approximately what is was new. Which makes little sense. Always figure average depreciation to be $2k for the car being used, and an additional $0.75 per mile for the first year. It starts slowing down past that.
Sorry you have made poor choices with your past car purchases that are affecting your current dreams. It is unfortunate, but hopefully you'll learn from it and only trade-up when you have equity in the future.
Last edited by sethdude; 08-19-2012 at 06:46 PM.
Hilarious how VR6Now and Puma1552 and sethlude are proving my point how because I am a woman I must have made a bad deal and acted like a child as VR6Now puts it "walked away mad, post trash". Ofcourse when the sales manager gave me the number and told me "I feel rotten about this" I told him what I am asking for and asked if that was unreasonable, he was quite. Whether you like it or not, this was not a "great deal."
For futher clarification, I ordered the 2013 in September 2011, and because of production issues, there was no date as to when it will come in. Bought 2012 in March 2012...yes, i knew I would carry over some of that debt. And dealer definitely played with my emotion, because two weeks before my 2013 was scheduled to come, in early August I took my 2012 to them to get a price from them. However, they refused to tell me saying we cannot give you a quote now on oyour trade in until the other car comes in because two weeks makes a difference. So no, could not strike a deal before the car even came in, and they definitely wanted to make sure I saw my car and get all attached before striking a deal.
Another clarification that VR6Now is not getting, there was no discussion of finance or down payment...for all you know, I could pay it all in cash...I am a lawyer after all.
For those of you who cannot do math, here is the math of the dealer's offer of $36,600 based on the numbers he just posted to you all as being fair, his nickname here is "Cincyvwdealer".
Owner is selling 2013 for $27,900
Offered me $18,400 for my 2012 (I still owe $24571, so will be carrying $6,171)
So total cost right now is $34,071.
Sales tax for me is 6.25% So sales tax of $27,900 is $1,743.75
So total so far is $27,900 + $6,171 + 1743.75 = $35,814.75
Dealer's Offer was $36,600 and change. The dealer did not show me the invoice and I did not take the paperwork of his offer with me. My disappointment and shock is the claim "this is a great deal" and their insistence we are working with you. Sorry but that is not a "great deal".
Just for you VR6Now, yes, I will be going to other dealers in a couple of months when the configuration I want will be at several dealers. I will be sending you a private message of how deals are struck in a few months
Documentation fee in Ohio is $250. Add that to $750 destination charge, and you have $1000.
$35,814 + $1000 = $36,814.
$36,600 and change < $36,814.
So you are still getting a good deal.
You need to realize, when you defame a reputable business on the internet, you imperil the livelihood of every employee of that dealership. Before you cry foul and hurt honest Americans trying to eke out a living in a difficult economy, why don't you try to know what you are talking about? Your accusation that people try to take advantage of you because you are a woman is off base. People try to take advantage of you because you are easily misled and like to play the victim. And in this case, nobody is taking advantage of you. You are being very unrealistic with your expectations, and reality hurts.
I just realized, for purposes of getting you financed (because few banks will finance a deal this far upside-down, they're probably having to write the deal at MSRP, and showing more for your trade on the financial paperwork. You may be paying taxes on $29,615 as a result.
Did you even bother asking why the discrepancy?
Last edited by sethdude; 08-19-2012 at 07:35 PM.
Also, you may want to check the definition of "defame" before you claim that is what I am doing. It is defined as "To damage the reputation, character, or good name of by slander or libel" Me telling my disappointment of not getting the "great deal" the dealer is giving me and giving the accurate numbers he provided me is definitely not slander or libel. The turth is a defense to everything. Again, as repetition seems to be required here, the dealer's deal is a joke in my opinion.
You're a lawyer. Ask yourself a question. Could you assert gender bias with the evidence you brought forth in this forum. If you are any good as a lawyer, you know the answer is no.
Again, you accused them, publishing said accusation online, of treating you poorly because you are a woman.
libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation.
You really should stop while you are ahead.
Again, did you ask Tim why the discrepancy in math? Or are you too proud to figure it out and you'd rather be huffy and ridiculous about it.
Yeah, OP, you're the victim.
Only an idiot would buy a brand new car FIVE MONTHS after ordering one of the exact same thing.
You may be a windbag lawyer (of which the world is saturated), but you absolutely suck at math and common sense.
Fiscal idiocy, plain and simple.
But you're a woman, so boo ****ing hoo. No surprise you can't explain why you would make such a stupid decision to buy a new car after you ordered it, and a whole five months into the order which makes you look even more unintelligent. It would look better if you had ordered and bought the two cars on the same day, but waiting five months into it and then going "Gee, hurrr, I should buy a brand new, nearly identical car and then try to trade it in 2-3 months when the '13s are out and dealers can't unload their new '12s as it is!"
How dense are you? I mean really, just goes to show that education /= common sense or intelligence. More money than brains, I guess, and now you are crying foul about the $40k Beetle situation you put yourself into.
Zero pity from me, the more you post, the worse you look.
Last edited by puma1552; 08-19-2012 at 10:31 PM.
Yeah, you still can't provide answers to the first two questions many posts ago:
1) Why did you buy a brand new identical (turbo Beetle is turbo Beetle) car when you had one on order already, especially when you were planning on trading it in after a mere month or two and take a colossal bath on it?
2) Why didn't you agree on a price for the new car before you ordered it?
The answer to both is fiscal stupidity, which is why you won't answer either.
Honestly this thread should just be locked, the OP has shown us that she has no business buying new cars and no semblance of financial responsibility, and she's trying to make the dealer look bad for it. Dealers are sleazy, but having to deal with stupidity like this day in day out from 4/5 customers kind of makes me see why. If people are that dense, may as well take 'em for a ride.
Last edited by puma1552; 08-19-2012 at 11:36 PM.