Walked away from my ordered beetle :(

[VR6Now]

No, I will not be reconsidering these numbers. For those mentioning interest rates and financing, does not apply here, since we did not consider down payment and my credit score and what interest I would have. I went to the dealer, where for the past six months, since I bought by base turbo, I was assured they would work with me on making a deal for my ordered beetle. So on Thursday, I took base beetle to the dealer to be evaluated, waited for 30 minutes, when the sales manager comes back and tells me the best they can do is a total cost of $36,000. I need to pay that to trade in base beetle and get the 2013. Again, no discussion about how that will be paid or financing or anything.
I was not expecting to get MSRP for my trade in, but expected around $20,000, which yes is few hundred above the average depreciation on the first year, which is 20%. I expected to get similar to an employee discount for my 2013, which I have gotten before from a dealer I did not even have any previous business with. So, no I think for a dealer who gets my service business and loyalty and patience, I was not being unrealistic. I know about depreciation and I know about trade-in, but asking for about $20,000 for my trade in and discount on the 2013, is not unreasonable for a total cost of of $32,000 for a loyal customer.
Yes, I do think that me being a female, emotional about car, and love for the car, where I have waited a year and kept my order in, did affect the deal.

And you made that counter-offer to the dealer or just walked away mad, post trash on the internet and assumed gender bias? All dealers offer deals advantagous to their business. If you are a roll-over, you'll take the deal or walk away mad. If you know how to negotiate, you'll make a counter-offer based what is possible.

The interest rate paid on the first car along with the down payment are important in determining the amount of negative equity you have. Having negative equity can affect your financing on the second car. The dealer may have to use a bank that is willing to take on the additional risk of negative equity since the car is not worth the loan. You will pay more for the risk level. You're naive if you don't understand that.

You and the dealer are $4,000 apart from a deal and thats more than can be bridged in this deal. Walk away and go to another dealer. I think you'll find that the 4k you're looking for isn't going to happen particularly if you intend to bad mouth them instead of negotiating. I don't think you'll get everything you asked for. If I were the dealer, I'd cut my losses and accept your business as lost.

[gwernerjr]

And you made that counter-offer to the dealer or just walked away mad, post trash on the internet and assumed gender bias? All dealers offer deals advantagous to their business. If you are a roll-over, you'll take the deal or walk away mad. If you know how to negotiate, you'll make a counter-offer based what is possible.

The interest rate paid on the first car along with the down payment are important in determining the amount of negative equity you have. Having negative equity can affect your financing on the second car. The dealer may have to use a bank that is willing to take on the additional risk of negative equity since the car is not worth the loan. You will pay more for the risk level. You're naive if you don't understand that.

You and the dealer are $4,000 apart from a deal and thats more than can be bridged in this deal. Walk away and go to another dealer. I think you'll find that the 4k you're looking for isn't going to happen particularly if you intend to bad mouth them instead of negotiating. I don't think you'll get everything you asked for. If I were the dealer, I'd cut my losses and accept your business as lost.

I totally agree with this! Well said. Eventually a dealer should not have to take the deal. People say you need to keep customers coming back, meanwhile so many times customers rape the dealers over and over and its not even worth it. What are they going to pass along one friend's sale who rapes the dealer too. I know its a rough economy and the customer's always right, but for once see it from the dealer network aspect. They need to make money somewhere or else why even sell us the cars.

[puma1552]

I still fail to understand why the hell the OP thought buying a brand new Beetle in the interim until the other virtually exact same ordered one came in was a good idea, and why the OP didn't agree on a price and terms and sign papers BEFORE ordering the car?

Sorry OP, but this is plenty your fault. You've made numerous poor decisions and mistakes in this process. The dealer isn't much better, trying to play to heart strings banking on you taking it on their terms the day it comes in, as IMO the dealer too should've made sure that terms were agreed on prior to ordering the car (and given at least a rough ballpark projected trade-in for when the new car came in).

In my opinion, both the OP and the dealer did poor business and are both at fault, but most of it lies on the OP's side.

[VR6Now]

In defense of the dealer (never thought I'd say that), they probably knew at the time that they could sell that combo so there's no/low risk in the order. Secondly, the trade may or may not have existed way back when the order was placed. Who would've thought that the OP would present then an upside down trade.

The dealer will be fine. They've lost nothing. The OP will be fine once they check out what they are asking for and realize that its not practical.

[sethdude]

OP, you are being extremely unreasonable here. I am an ex-VW salesman, and help everyone I know buy cars. I know how a deal works, and what the numbers mean:

1. You have been extremely fiscally irresponsible in your past deals, leading to an egregious amount of negative equity which you will still have to pay your financiers. You did that, not the dealership.

2. Expecting far more for your trade than it's worth is a show of poor judgement. I have seen many used B12 Turbos on the market for around $20k, many of which are certified and have fewer miles than yours. Certification costs the dealership money, so you have to take that into account to what they're asking for it when they sell it on. You are not entitled to their profit. See link for example of lower mileage Certified B12 Turbo retail value: http://tinyurl.com/c429c5t

3. The dealer has been absolutely transparent with you, and you are accusing them of being shady. There's a fair number of people (OP included) who think the dealership is sitting on $10k profit in every $30k car. Guess what? They're not. Most new cars have about $2,500 max profit margin between invoice and MSRP. That's your money to play with. Just because the dealership has "holdback" (money from the manufacturer, essentially to inspire the dealership to sell more of a particular model) doesn't mean you're entitled to it. It's their incentive. They give you a separate incentive.

The deal they are offering you is pretty good. The numbers are terrible because of your actions, not the dealerships. Honestly, you should save some face, apologize to Tim (who has my respect for addressing your issues professionally, despite you acting like a brat about it and trying to mar his reputation), and just admit that you can't afford the car at this time due to your poor choices.

Ultimately, any dollar amount under MSRP is a fair deal, and you definitely got a good one. I'm not sure why you expected to get so much more for your base Turbo, because the $4k difference you specify would require your trade-in with 10k miles to be worth approximately what is was new. Which makes little sense. Always figure average depreciation to be $2k for the car being used, and an additional $0.75 per mile for the first year. It starts slowing down past that.

Sorry you have made poor choices with your past car purchases that are affecting your current dreams. It is unfortunate, but hopefully you'll learn from it and only trade-up when you have equity in the future.

[ltlebug]

Hilarious how VR6Now and Puma1552 and sethlude are proving my point how because I am a woman I must have made a bad deal and acted like a child as VR6Now puts it "walked away mad, post trash". Ofcourse when the sales manager gave me the number and told me "I feel rotten about this" I told him what I am asking for and asked if that was unreasonable, he was quite. Whether you like it or not, this was not a "great deal."

For futher clarification, I ordered the 2013 in September 2011, and because of production issues, there was no date as to when it will come in. Bought 2012 in March 2012...yes, i knew I would carry over some of that debt. And dealer definitely played with my emotion, because two weeks before my 2013 was scheduled to come, in early August I took my 2012 to them to get a price from them. However, they refused to tell me saying we cannot give you a quote now on oyour trade in until the other car comes in because two weeks makes a difference. So no, could not strike a deal before the car even came in, and they definitely wanted to make sure I saw my car and get all attached before striking a deal.

Another clarification that VR6Now is not getting, there was no discussion of finance or down payment...for all you know, I could pay it all in cash...I am a lawyer after all.

For those of you who cannot do math, here is the math of the dealer's offer of $36,600 based on the numbers he just posted to you all as being fair, his nickname here is "Cincyvwdealer".
Owner is selling 2013 for $27,900
Offered me $18,400 for my 2012 (I still owe $24571, so will be carrying $6,171)
So total cost right now is $34,071.
Sales tax for me is 6.25% So sales tax of $27,900 is $1,743.75
So total so far is $27,900 + $6,171 + 1743.75 = $35,814.75

Dealer's Offer was $36,600 and change. The dealer did not show me the invoice and I did not take the paperwork of his offer with me. My disappointment and shock is the claim "this is a great deal" and their insistence we are working with you. Sorry but that is not a "great deal".

Just for you VR6Now, yes, I will be going to other dealers in a couple of months when the configuration I want will be at several dealers. I will be sending you a private message of how deals are struck in a few months

[sethdude]

Hilarious how VR6Now and Puma1552 and sethlude are proving my point how because I am a woman I must have made a bad deal and acted like a child as VR6Now puts it "walked away mad, post trash". Ofcourse when the sales manager gave me the number and told me "I feel rotten about this" I told him what I am asking for and asked if that was unreasonable, he was quite. Whether you like it or not, this was not a "great deal."

For futher clarification, I ordered the 2013 in September 2011, and because of production issues, there was no date as to when it will come in. Bought 2012 in March 2012...yes, i knew I would carry over some of that debt. And dealer definitely played with my emotion, because two weeks before my 2013 was scheduled to come, in early August I took my 2012 to them to get a price from them. However, they refused to tell me saying we cannot give you a quote now on oyour trade in until the other car comes in because two weeks makes a difference. So no, could not strike a deal before the car even came in, and they definitely wanted to make sure I saw my car and get all attached before striking a deal.

Another clarification that VR6Now is not getting, there was no discussion of finance or down payment...for all you know, I could pay it all in cash...I am a lawyer after all.

For those of you who cannot do math, here is the math of the dealer's offer of $36,600 based on the numbers he just posted to you all as being fair, his nickname here is "Cincyvwdealer".
Owner is selling 2013 for $27,900
Offered me $18,400 for my 2012 (I still owe $24571, so will be carrying $6,171)
So total cost right now is $34,071.
Sales tax for me is 6.25% So sales tax of $27,900 is $1,743.75
So total so far is $27,900 + $6,171 + 1743.75 = $35,814.75

Dealer's Offer was $36,600 and change. The dealer did not show me the invoice and I did not take the paperwork of his offer with me. My disappointment and shock is the claim "this is a great deal" and their insistence we are working with you. Sorry but that is not a "great deal".

Just for you VR6Now, yes, I will be going to other dealers in a couple of months when the configuration I want will be at several dealers. I will be sending you a private message of how deals are struck in a few months

You are not including destination fee and documentation fee, which varies from state to state. And it has nothing to do with you being a woman. It has everything to do with poor decision making skills. My wife is a woman, and would have never, ever gotten into your situation, because she knows how car financing works.

[sethdude]

Documentation fee in Ohio is $250. Add that to $750 destination charge, and you have $1000.

$35,814 + $1000 = $36,814.

$36,600 and change < $36,814.

So you are still getting a good deal.

You need to realize, when you defame a reputable business on the internet, you imperil the livelihood of every employee of that dealership. Before you cry foul and hurt honest Americans trying to eke out a living in a difficult economy, why don't you try to know what you are talking about? Your accusation that people try to take advantage of you because you are a woman is off base. People try to take advantage of you because you are easily misled and like to play the victim. And in this case, nobody is taking advantage of you. You are being very unrealistic with your expectations, and reality hurts.

I just realized, for purposes of getting you financed (because few banks will finance a deal this far upside-down, they're probably having to write the deal at MSRP, and showing more for your trade on the financial paperwork. You may be paying taxes on $29,615 as a result.

Did you even bother asking why the discrepancy?

[ltlebug]

Documentation fee in Ohio is $250. Add that to $750 destination charge, and you have $1000.

$35,814 + $1000 = $36,814.

$36,600 and change < $36,814.

So you are still getting a good deal.

You need to realize, when you defame a reputable business on the internet, you imperil the livelihood of every employee of that dealership. Before you cry foul and hurt honest Americans trying to eke out a living in a difficult economy, why don't you try to know what you are talking about? Your accusation that people try to take advantage of you because you are a woman is off base. People try to take advantage of you because you are easily misled and like to play the victim. And in this case, nobody is taking advantage of you. You are being very unrealistic with your expectations, and reality hurts.

The MSRP price of $29,615 included the destination fee of $770. The dealer is selling it to me according to him below invoice at $27,900. So, please you should check the information before claiming I do not know what I am talking about, becasue the destination cost is included in the cost. Its hilarious, you do not even know me, yet you judge and say I am playing victim. This is not about playing victim, this is about me feeling played like a fool, where the prices were not negotiated until I saw the car and for months was told they will work with me knowing I have a 2012 to trade, knowing the miles on it since they service it, and knowing what i owe since I have been telling the sales manager.
Also, you may want to check the definition of "defame" before you claim that is what I am doing. It is defined as "To damage the reputation, character, or good name of by slander or libel" Me telling my disappointment of not getting the "great deal" the dealer is giving me and giving the accurate numbers he provided me is definitely not slander or libel. The turth is a defense to everything. Again, as repetition seems to be required here, the dealer's deal is a joke in my opinion.

[VR6Now]

Hilarious how VR6Now and Puma1552 and sethlude are proving my point how because I am a woman I must have made a bad deal and acted like a child as VR6Now puts it "walked away mad, post trash". Ofcourse when the sales manager gave me the number and told me "I feel rotten about this" I told him what I am asking for and asked if that was unreasonable, he was quite. Whether you like it or not, this was not a "great deal."

For futher clarification, I ordered the 2013 in September 2011, and because of production issues, there was no date as to when it will come in. Bought 2012 in March 2012...yes, i knew I would carry over some of that debt. And dealer definitely played with my emotion, because two weeks before my 2013 was scheduled to come, in early August I took my 2012 to them to get a price from them. However, they refused to tell me saying we cannot give you a quote now on oyour trade in until the other car comes in because two weeks makes a difference. So no, could not strike a deal before the car even came in, and they definitely wanted to make sure I saw my car and get all attached before striking a deal.

Another clarification that VR6Now is not getting, there was no discussion of finance or down payment...for all you know, I could pay it all in cash...I am a lawyer after all.

For those of you who cannot do math, here is the math of the dealer's offer of $36,600 based on the numbers he just posted to you all as being fair, his nickname here is "Cincyvwdealer".
Owner is selling 2013 for $27,900
Offered me $18,400 for my 2012 (I still owe $24571, so will be carrying $6,171)
So total cost right now is $34,071.
Sales tax for me is 6.25% So sales tax of $27,900 is $1,743.75
So total so far is $27,900 + $6,171 + 1743.75 = $35,814.75

Dealer's Offer was $36,600 and change. The dealer did not show me the invoice and I did not take the paperwork of his offer with me. My disappointment and shock is the claim "this is a great deal" and their insistence we are working with you. Sorry but that is not a "great deal".

Just for you VR6Now, yes, I will be going to other dealers in a couple of months when the configuration I want will be at several dealers. I will be sending you a private message of how deals are struck in a few months

You're actually proving my point. Your gender isn't you problem, you are. Being a lawyer doesn't give you special license to know all things autumotive nor does it mean you have rational expectations. Being a woman doesn't mean you can't cut a mean deal. I don't really see what your profession or gender has to do with it. They are issues because you make them so. Every dealer I've dealt with has offered me something less than I wanted. I negotiated and if I didn't get what I wanted and it was fair, I walked. No need to blame it on my race and post it on the internet. If I knew I had a workable deal, the original dealer I spoke with would take it eventually. Generally, I don't have to walk because a few back and forths to the sales office and its done.

You're a lawyer. Ask yourself a question. Could you assert gender bias with the evidence you brought forth in this forum. If you are any good as a lawyer, you know the answer is no.

[sethdude]

Again, you accused them, publishing said accusation online, of treating you poorly because you are a woman.

libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation.

You really should stop while you are ahead.

Again, did you ask Tim why the discrepancy in math? Or are you too proud to figure it out and you'd rather be huffy and ridiculous about it.

[puma1552]

Yeah, OP, you're the victim.

Only an idiot would buy a brand new car FIVE MONTHS after ordering one of the exact same thing.

You may be a windbag lawyer (of which the world is saturated), but you absolutely suck at math and common sense.

Fiscal idiocy, plain and simple.

But you're a woman, so boo ****ing hoo. No surprise you can't explain why you would make such a stupid decision to buy a new car after you ordered it, and a whole five months into the order which makes you look even more unintelligent. It would look better if you had ordered and bought the two cars on the same day, but waiting five months into it and then going "Gee, hurrr, I should buy a brand new, nearly identical car and then try to trade it in 2-3 months when the '13s are out and dealers can't unload their new '12s as it is!"

How dense are you? I mean really, just goes to show that education /= common sense or intelligence. More money than brains, I guess, and now you are crying foul about the $40k Beetle situation you put yourself into.

Zero pity from me, the more you post, the worse you look.

[ltlebug]

Again, did you ask Tim why the discrepancy in math? Or are you too proud to figure it out and you'd rather be huffy and ridiculous about it.

No, because Tim never came out. I went to the dealer, and one salesperson took the key to my 2012 got numbers from it, then the used car manager went and looked at it. Then he went inside a no window conference/office area, came out. A few minutes later, the sales manager came out and told me we are working on the deal right now. Twenty minutes later came back telling me are still working on the deal. Then ten minutes later, came out and showed me numbers. Told him not acceptable, told me he feels rotten about it, and told him my counter and asked doesnt that sound reasonable, he was quite. He told me he tried but that this is the best they will offer. They gave me my $500 I had deposited back in September 2011 for this order and that was that. So, no Tim never came out.

[ltlebug]

Yeah, OP, you're the victim.

Only an idiot would buy a brand new car FIVE MONTHS after ordering one of the exact same thing.

You may be a windbag lawyer (of which the world is saturated), but you absolutely suck at math and common sense.

Fiscal idiocy, plain and simple.

But you're a woman, so boo ****ing hoo. No surprise you can't explain why you would make such a stupid decision to buy a new car after you ordered it, and a whole five months into the order which makes you look even more unintelligent. It would look better if you had ordered and bought the two cars on the same day, but waiting five months into it and then going "Gee, hurrr, I should buy a brand new, nearly identical car and then try to trade it in 2-3 months when the '13s are out and dealers can't unload their new '12s as it is!"

How dense are you? I mean really, just goes to show that education /= common sense or intelligence. More money than brains, I guess, and now you are crying foul about the $40k Beetle situation you put yourself into.

Zero pity from me, the more you post, the worse you look.

The more you post, the more entertaining this is. It is nice to have laughter result from this experience. Thank you FYI, my 2012 is a base turbo, the 2013, which was originally supposed to be a 2012, is a fully loaded beetle.

[puma1552]

Yeah, you still can't provide answers to the first two questions many posts ago:

1) Why did you buy a brand new identical (turbo Beetle is turbo Beetle) car when you had one on order already, especially when you were planning on trading it in after a mere month or two and take a colossal bath on it?

2) Why didn't you agree on a price for the new car before you ordered it?

The answer to both is fiscal stupidity, which is why you won't answer either.

lol.

Honestly this thread should just be locked, the OP has shown us that she has no business buying new cars and no semblance of financial responsibility, and she's trying to make the dealer look bad for it. Dealers are sleazy, but having to deal with stupidity like this day in day out from 4/5 customers kind of makes me see why. If people are that dense, may as well take 'em for a ride.

[Aonarch]

Lol OP what do you practice? You sound like a wanker.

[ltlebug]

Yeah, you still can't provide answers to the first two questions many posts ago:

1) Why did you buy a brand new identical (turbo Beetle is turbo Beetle) car when you had one on order already, especially when you were planning on trading it in after a mere month or two and take a colossal bath on it?

2) Why didn't you agree on a price for the new car before you ordered it?

The answer to both is fiscal stupidity, which is why you won't answer either.

lol.

Honestly this thread should just be locked, the OP has shown us that she has no business buying new cars and no semblance of financial responsibility, and she's trying to make the dealer look bad for it. Dealers are sleazy, but having to deal with stupidity like this day in day out from 4/5 customers kind of makes me see why. If people are that dense, may as well take 'em for a ride.

Again, thank you for the entertaintment it is stupid of me to ask for higher value for my trade, yet that is exactly what you wanted for yours as you posted in this thread that you created:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...7#post78126977

[ltlebug]

Lol OP what do you practice? You sound like a wanker.

This is actually funny coming from you

[Cadenza_7o]

Holy Baby Jesus!!!

What happened to all the window threads???

And I think we can agree VW is a cheapskate for not putting the Independent Rear Suspension in ALL Beetles.

Herr Piech... you must pimp ALL the Beetles with IRS.

[sethdude]

Ok, so the deal didn't get done at the lowball, unrealistic price you wanted it to. It doesn't give you the right to libel the dealership the way you did. Especially when they refunded your deposit.

You need to accept ownership for your poor decision making, apologize to Tim, retract you libelous statement, and move on. Hopefully, you've learned something through all of this, though by your series of replies to others, I doubt you have.

I'm sure Tim will have no trouble at all finding a buyer for that car at a realistic price.

[silverspeedbuggy]

Locking this up. Let me remind everyone here that name calling can get you banned. From the forum rules:

No flaming of other members to incite or perpetuate a conflict or argument. ANY personal attacks or name calling will get you banned