Effect of Higher Ethanol in Fuel (No politics, food, etc. please).

[urbanrocketeer]

Long time (since ca. 2001) lurker, first time poster.

Yahoo! had the following article http://finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-de...151803168.html that makes it sound like an increase in ethanol is fait accompli. As I am about to purchase a new car, is there anything about this that should inform my choices?

[mattdesmond]

Yeah, buy a diesel.

[ATL_Av8r]

unless you drive a car from the 70s or earlier, you'll be fine.

your lawn mower and weed eater will probably get gummed up though.

[Rav_VW]

The problem isn't ethanol, it's corn-based ethanol.

If you are buying a new car, it should be fine running with pretty much any ethanol mix, if that's your concern. You'd only have to worry with an older car.

[urbanrocketeer]

Yeah, buy a diesel.

I guess I had that coming . . .

I've already ruled out the diesel option due to costs. What I'm curious about is if there is any need to concern myself with the additional 5% of ethanol decreasing the longevity of modern engines including DI, turbo, Flex Fuel, etc.

Or to put it another way, which engine(s) would be the least affected (other than diesel )?

[Obin Robinson]

Long time (since ca. 2001) lurker, first time poster.

Yahoo! had the following article http://finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-de...151803168.html that makes it sound like an increase in ethanol is fait accompli. As I am about to purchase a new car, is there anything about this that should inform my choices?

Let's put it this way... many years from now there will be many class action suits because of this. The best you can do as a consumer is to avoid ethanol if at all possible or buy a vehicle that runs on it. There really isn't a good inbetween unless you want to risk damaging your vehicle or wasting your money.

obin

[urbanrocketeer]

Let's put it this way... many years from now there will be many class action suits because of this. The best you can do as a consumer is to avoid ethanol if at all possible or buy a vehicle that runs on it. There really isn't a good inbetween unless you want to risk damaging your vehicle or wasting your money.

obin

Ah, I was afraid of that.

If you personally had to buy a vehicle/engine type for this (again, other than diesel), what would be your choice?

[urbanrocketeer]

unless you drive a car from the 70s or earlier, you'll be fine.

your lawn mower and weed eater will probably get gummed up though.

Fortunately, I use all electric yard tools at this moment. And the vehicle would be a 2011 or newer model.

[Obin Robinson]

Ah, I was afraid of that.

If you personally had to buy a vehicle/engine type for this (again, other than diesel), what would be your choice?

They're going to force this ethanol trash down out throats until it kills our cars. The corn lobbyists are not car enthusiasts: they just want to force corn into our soft drinks, household goods, and gas tanks.
http://e85vehicles.com/

Out of all of those I'd pick the Buick Regal Turbo with a 6 speed manual transmission.

obin

[urbanrocketeer]

They're going to force this ethanol trash down out throats until it kills our cars. The corn lobbyists are not car enthusiasts: they just want to force corn into our soft drinks, household goods, and gas tanks.
http://e85vehicles.com/

Out of all of those I'd pick the Buick Regal Turbo with a 6 speed manual transmission.

obin

Hey, I was just looking at that website

I do like a turbo with a manual . . . That being said, I've been a non-domestic owner all my life (with the exception of a Pontiac Sunfire back in the day . . . ) and it appears that German/Japanese/Korean cars don't offer much in the way of Flex Fuel. Wonder if that will change with the increased use of ethanol.

[Obin Robinson]

Hey, I was just looking at that website

I do like a turbo with a manual . . . That being said, I've been a non-domestic owner all my life (with the exception of a Pontiac Sunfire back in the day . . . ) and it appears that German/Japanese/Korean cars don't offer much in the way of Flex Fuel. Wonder if that will change with the increased use of ethanol.

Not sure. I know that many foreign vehicle manufacturers have warned against the use of higher ehtanol concentration in their vehicles. even the big three have warned about 15% ethanol voiding warranties. Porsche advises against 15% ethanol in their vehicles as well. This whole ethanol mess is a bad nightmare that I wish would end.

obin

[Oval Baja]

Ah, I was afraid of that.

If you personally had to buy a vehicle/engine type for this (again, other than diesel), what would be your choice?

Propane.

[urbanrocketeer]

Not sure. I know that many foreign vehicle manufacturers have warned against the use of higher ehtanol concentration in their vehicles. even the big three have warned about 15% ethanol voiding warranties. Porsche advises against 15% ethanol in their vehicles as well. This whole ethanol mess is a bad nightmare that I wish would end.

obin

This just gets better and better . . .

I guess since I end up keeping cars about three to four years it really won't make a difference, but do we really need another thing to worry about?

In any case, thanks for the info, Obin.

[ABATurbo]

E85 gets along very well with turbocharged engines.

[adrew]

The gas cap on my 2012 Toyota says not to use anything higher than 10%.

[SVTDanny]

E85 gets along very well with turbocharged engines.

This... if you have E85 readily available, turn up the boost.

When used for any other purpose aside from making tons of power, ethanol sucks.

[I_like_waffles]

If E15 ever completely replaces E10, I'll just fill-up at Marinas, they have non-ethanol fuel... Nice perk of being on the Florida coast.

[surefooted]

This... if you have E85 readily available, turn up the boost.

When used for any other purpose aside from making tons of power, ethanol sucks.

Umm no. Just running E85 out the box won't allow you to run more boost.

If you have E85 available and have taken the measures to run it, E85 safe pump, lines, etc. and are tuned for it, then yes, have fun with increased boost.

[SVTDanny]

Umm no. Just running E85 out the box won't allow you to run more boost.

If you have E85 available and have taken the measures to run it, E85 safe pump, lines, etc. and are tuned for it, then yes, have fun with increased boost.

Obviously you can't just pump a different fuel into a car and expect it to work, aside from Flex Fuel vehicles.

You don't need a "safe pump" or "safe lines" unless your car is ancient, you just need to be able to supply enough fuel to make up for the ~30% lower energy content and lower stoichiometry, as well as have a tune that accounts for it.

[surefooted]

Obviously you can't just pump a different fuel into a car and expect it to work, aside from Flex Fue; vehicles.

You don't need a "safe pump" or "safe lines" unless your car is ancient, you just need to be able to supply enough fuel to make up for the ~30% lower energy content and lower stoichiometry, as well as have a tune that accounts for it.

And how many cars can flow 30% more fuel without at least a new pump and not running 90+% IDC?

in addition, how many cars that aren't flexfuel have E85 safe lines and connecters? Hmmm?? Go ahead and search.

[ABATurbo]

And how many cars can flow 30% more fuel without at least a new pump and not running 90+% IDC?

in addition, how many cars that aren't flexfuel have E85 safe lines and connecters? Hmmm?? Go ahead and search.

This is why we use E85 mixes. 20% E85 mixed with 80% 91 (E10) = 93ish Octane. We can't get anything higher than 91 here, so this is my way of getting 93. The injectors/fuel pump can easily flow the extra fuel needed to keep up with a 20% mix. Most cars made in the 2000s can handle the ethanol. Although, to run 100% E85, some may need new lines/seals/injectors.

[surefooted]

This is why we use E85 mixes. 20% E85 mixed with 80% 91 (E10) = 93ish Octane. We can't get anything higher than 91 here, so this is my way of getting 93. The injectors/fuel pump can easily flow the extra fuel needed to keep up with a 20% mix. Most cars made in the 2000s can handle the ethanol. Although, to run 100% E85, some may need new lines/seals/injectors.

Wasn't talking about running mixes. Talking 100% straight E85.

[BRealistic]

There are gas stations that sell 100% gasoline.

[urbanrocketeer]

There are gas stations that sell 100% gasoline.

Is there a handy website where these gas stations are listed? I checked http://pure-gas.org/ but didn't see any in the DFW area off-hand.

[adrew]

Is there a handy website where these gas stations are listed? I checked http://pure-gas.org/ but didn't see any in the DFW area off-hand.

The only one near DFW is by the Texas Motorsport Ranch down in Cresson.

The ethanol requirement is based on population/air pollution which is why there are no stations in populated areas.

[urbanrocketeer]

The only one near DFW is by the Texas Motorsport Ranch down in Cresson.

The ethanol requirement is based on population/air pollution which is why there are no stations in populated areas.

Thank you very much for that information and insight, adrew . That explains a lot. Alas, Cresson is way out there beyond where I tend to roam.

So that seals the deal then - if it indeed goes to 15% ethanol I'll just have to put it in the ol' tank and hope for the best.

Thank you everyone for your responses.

[PlatinumGLS]

They're going to force this ethanol trash down out throats until it kills our cars. The corn lobbyists are not car enthusiasts: they just want to force corn into our soft drinks, household goods, and gas tanks.
http://e85vehicles.com/

Out of all of those I'd pick the Buick Regal Turbo with a 6 speed manual transmission.

obin

We our Regal Turbo and with our Trifecta tune, actually gets about 10 more HP with E85. Haven't tried E85 in our Silverado yet but that is supposed to get a bump in HP when running E85 as well...

[turbinepowered]

Or to put it another way, which engine(s) would be the least affected (other than diesel )?

Anything built after 1990. The newer the better, because it hasn't had a lifetime of low-grade fuel run through it.

/thread

[turbinepowered]

in addition, how many cars that aren't flexfuel have E85 safe lines and connecters? Hmmm?? Go ahead and search.

Any modern car with reasonably fresh fuel lines (not decades old heat-degraded stock lines) can handle the occasional tank of straight up E85. Buna-N (nitrile) rubber gets a "FAIR" rating for ethanol compatibility. EPDM, a sealing material, has an "Excellent" rating. PTFE, Nylon and Viton also get "Excellent" ratings. Heck, even "natural rubber" has an "excellent" rating for ethanol.

For comparison, Buna-N has an "excellent" rating for unleaded gasoline (with the footnote that it's for temperatures up to 72F), EPDM has a "poor" rating for gasoline. Viton, Nylon and PTFE all have "excellent" ratings for gasoline as well.

[Pool Runner]

I've run E85 in my '11 5.0L Flex Fuel F-150. It goes through the stuff like a 2 liter bottle with a 2" hole in the bottom, but the added power is very noticible via the butt dyno. The added pull doesn't feel like a turbo, supercharged or nitrous but more like the motor is .3-.5 liters larger during that tank. It's the slight but noticible difference you feel when you turn on/ off the Air Conditioning.