Let's talk about Straight 8s

[MAG58]

I see all these engine threads talking about I6, V6, VR6, I4, V8, V12, and all other sorts of fun engines, so let's talk about my favorite impractical engine configuration from days gone by: the straight 8.

Duesenberg:


Pontiac:


Buick Straight 8 in a 240SX:


Coolest: Turbo Buick in a Jaguar:



Discuss

[WD-40]

[personman]

That's actually one of the easier tightening sequences I've seen.

[Shomegrown]

That Lawwill rearend was really ahead of its time - solid choice.

[GTE77]

This will be one LOOOOOOOOng conversation.

[Chileno]

This will be one LOOOOOOOOng conversation.

I read this and thought, "lol, what if there were 8 O's, like a straight 8..."

Well played.

[kowabonga]

Might as well bring Harry Miller into this conversation:



1923

[WD-40]

That's actually one of the easier tightening sequences I've seen.

How about this one then?

[Rukh]

That one looks like tons of fun.

Chrysler Atlantic had a "Straight Eight" - essentially two Neon I4s end to end, IIRC.

[kasbah]

miller?

you bet!



Packard is nicely done as well '29

[derekjl]

"It's a 1949 Buick Roadmaster. Straight-Eight. Fireball Eight. Dad lets me drive on the driveway, but not on Monday."

[personman]

How about this one then?

That's more like it!

[mx5er]

Who remembers the Ford T Drive???

[AuForm]

I had the naughty thought recently of making a Type43 or 44 Bugatti replica hotrod style with a custom VR8 for packaging practicality and the VAG connection. And to make it totally blasphemous I'd have it done by an American hotrod builder. I have no money - however.
Also - it would be interesting to build a VR engine for maximum revs (Honda Vtec style) since these hotrods don't weight much anyways.

[MCTB]

Who remembers the Ford T Drive???

What is this?

[Wanganrunner]

How about a 12.5 liter Straight 8?

Bugatti Royale Engine:

[Geechie_Suede]

What is this?

It's a prototype Tempo with a Straight-8 sideways. IIRC, it was some project Ford was doing developing transverse Inline engines for FWD applications.

EDIT:
http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec...ve/default.htm

In the last 30 years, Ford has produced several experimental engine developments which were ultimately abandoned. Most have never been seen, much less detailed technically. T-Drive is one of them; another was the stratified charge V-8 engine of the 70s. We've finally found some information on T-Drive, a truly unique and innovative system. We'm still looking for information on the stratified-charge V-8, and while some information was published 30 years ago about it I haven't yet been able to find any information about it in my personal library. I remember seeing a picture of a room full of them, after being broken up with sledge hammers when the program was abruptly terminated.

T-drive is a system consisting of a transversally located inline engine, a transmission, and associated packaging. It was designed by Ford in approximately the 1990 timeframe and shown in several auto shows and to magazines. Ultimately, it was abandoned due to several reasons. Ford went ahead with the "modular" V-6, V-8, VB-10, and V-12 engine families instead.

The T-Drive engine was literally t-shaped - the transmission was located in the middle of the engine instead of the end. This allows easy and compact placement in small spaces. Due to the tight spacing of the cylinder bores, engines were possible from 4 to 8 cylinders. And T-Drive was designed from the start as a DOHC engine, state-of-the-art at that time. Because the technology was entirely consistent across the board, any new technology could be applied to the entire range of engines quickly.

Engine output was never discussed. However, there are no reasons why it wouldn't be exactly the same as a conventional engine. Displacement was apparently 2, 3.2, and 4 liters (4, 6, and 8 cylinders).

Ford Engineers:

-Don Carriere, Principal Research Engineer
-Ansel Flanery, Senior Research Engineer.

Advantages:
Family approach to a range of engines
-Because of the size of the engine, and placement ahead of the axle centerline, front-, all-, or rear-wheel drive configurations could be engineered
-Rear-wheel drive could have used variations of existing off-the-shelf transmissions (saving money).
-Packaging advantages for "cab-forward" design.
-The transmission is located in-line with the midpoint of the crankshaft. This allows for a very low engine placement, and correspondingly low hoodline
-Marketing: provide Ford with centerpiece engine technology, as Subaru has with it's boxer engine family.

Problems:
-Packaging, NVH, durability.
-Harmonics, torque pulse and gear rattle.
-Limited bore size (torque, breathing, valve area) and displacement.
-Engine weight over front axle-line, creating weigh-balance issues as in a front-wheel drive car
-Front- or all-wheel drive would have required engineering variations on existing transmissions.
-Bulky transmission placement behind the engine - requiring specific design changes on existing front-wheel drive-based platforms.

This is the most outrageous example of T-Drive: a V-8 Tempo.
Yes, a 4 liter V-8 Tempo.


Note the DOHC inline-8.
The test car didn't have room for a conventional braking assist system - note the two reservoirs hung off the strut brace.

Judging from the patent text, this was at a minimum a front wheel drive car. It's not known if there was a take-off for a driveshaft to the rear, making it an AWD car. The patent does allow for that.

You'll note that on both of these engines, there is a gap in the middle of the engine where the drivetrain take-off was engineered.


This is a FOX-chassis T-Bird, with a 6-cylinder T-drive engine.
The engine is transverse, possibly leading to an unfavorable weight balance.



The rest of the driveline is conventional rear wheel drive. This car was probably built to demonstrate use of the near-off-the-shelf driveline.
Note that the engine takes up the full engine bay - not the radiator placement (normally very far-forward in a FOX T-Bird).

[JCT]

What is this?

http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec...ve/default.htm

[RacingManiac]

Mercedes 300 SLR

[nismo4life]

Mercedes 300 SLR

Yo lo apruebo.

[vwlarry]

I was too little to remember it, but my grandma and grandpa had a '52 Pontiac Catalina with straight-8 power when I was born. I have some pictures of the car. Pontiac, in fact was the last carmaker to offer inline-8 engines, up until 1954. The carmaker was late into the V8 revolution among the American makers, but they massaged their old straight-8 with postwar tech, and offered the highest compression-ratios ever seen on such engines, which raised their output to competitive levels. The engines were just too long, heavy, and inefficient though to keep up with the ultra-modern new OHV V8s coming from all the makers, even the independents like Packard, Nash and Studebaker.



Grandma and Grandpa traded the Catalina for a new '56 Pontiac Star Chief, with the all-new 287 cubic-inch OHV Pontiac V8 engine and Hydramatic. I remember that car v. well, since Grandma had it into the sixties, and we used it to drive from our home in NW Indiana to Arizona for our summer vacation several summers running, since it was faster and roomier than my dad's Ford.

[TopDown_]

The carmaker was late into the V8 revolution among the American makers, but they massaged their old straight-8 with postwar tech, and offered the highest compression-ratios ever seen on such engines, which raised their output to competitive levels.

Thanks, Larry:

Compression on the "eight" started at 5.7 - 1 initially, and was increased to 6.2 - 1 ratio in 1934. In 1940 it was increased again to 6.5 - 1. From 1952 to 1954 two compression ratios were specified, 6.8-1 with syncromesh (manual) transmission, and 7.7-1 ratio with Hydra-Matic (automatic) transmission. The engine had a remarkably low idle speed of a 450 rpm with standard transmission and 375 rpm (while in drive) for the automatic;

[Chris_V]

One of my favorite inline 8s, the Stutz DV32 DOHC, 4 valve per cyl aluminum unit:

The starting point for the Stutz's DOHC entry was the Vertical Eight, a design credited to a veteran automotive engineer named Charles O. Greuter. The eight, designed while "Pop" Greuter was working at the Excelsior Motor Company in Chicago, featured a single overhead camshaft, nine main bearings, a crossflow cylinder head with two valves per cylinder and dual ignition, making it powerful and smooth.

Greuter's eight came to the attention of Frederick E. Moskovics, who had been brought in to rescue a stumbling Stutz in 1925. Moskovics took Greuter aboard, and set him to work adapting the engine for a racy new model, to be called the Series AA. The major change in the engine's design was the use of a "silent" chain to power the camshaft, rather than a vertical shaft and noisy bevel gears. The original Vertical Eight wrung 92 horsepower from its 287 cubic inches, excellent by the standards of the day.

The ultimate development of the Vertical Eight arrived in the spring of 1931. The new engine's name, DV-32, was a reference to its dual overhead camshafts and total of 32 valves, four per cylinder. The dual valves increased the engine's breathing capacity by 60 percent, while allowing each spark plug to be centrally located, for better flame propagation. With a displacement of 322 cubic inches, the DV-32 produced a heady 156 horsepower at 3,900 RPM, just 5 horsepower less than the heavier and more complex L-head V-12s from Lincoln and Packard, and 20 less than Cadillac's overhead-valve V-16. The single-cam version of the eight, now called the SV-16, was still available, and was conservatively rated at 113hp at 3,300 RPM.

[Hurt]

Straight 8 TT in a miata plz

[C4 A6]

I8? Pfft, didn't you hear? The next Porsche is gunna have a VR8.

[GrayMarauder]

I'm not well versed enough to know anything about these.. But I am curious, what are the pros and cons of having an 8 in a inline verses a V?

Does it constitute why we don't see them at all anymore?

[WRXGuy]

I'm not well versed enough to know anything about these.. But I am curious, what are the pros and cons of having an 8 in a inline verses a V?

Does it constitute why we don't see them at all anymore?

Easy -- major reason is packaging -- an I8 is *HUGE*-- length and height. They're monsters. A V8 is lighter (in general), more compact, and is easier to cram in most anything.

[-DWM-]

I'm not well versed enough to know anything about these.. But I am curious, what are the pros and cons of having an 8 in a inline verses a V?

Does it constitute why we don't see them at all anymore?

Pros:
-Awesome
-Torque
Cons:
-very, very long.

[SciroccoOhio]

The 240sx in the 3rd video belongs to one of my neighbors. Its the McMeekin brothers racing car. Its no longer a straight 8 but still bad ass!

[AuForm]

The straight-eight engine or inline-eight engine is an eight-cylinder internal combustion engine with all eight cylinders mounted in a straight line along the crankcase. The type has been produced in side-valve, overhead-valve, sleeve-valve and overhead-cam configurations.

A straight-8 can be timed for inherent primary and secondary balance, with no unbalanced primary or secondary forces or moments. However, crankshaft torsional vibration, present to some degree in all engines, is sufficient to require the use of a harmonic damper at the accessory end of the crankshaft. Without such damping, fatigue cracking near the rear main bearing journal may occur, leading to engine failure.

Although an inline six cylinder engine can also be timed for inherent primary and secondary balance, a straight-8 develops more power strokes per revolution and, as a result, will run more smoothly under load than an inline six. Also, due to the even number of power strokes per revolution, the straight-8 does not produce unpleasant odd-order harmonic vibration in the vehicle's driveline at low engine speeds.

The smooth running characteristics of the straight-8 made it popular in luxury and racing cars of the past. However, the engine's length demanded the use of a long engine compartment, making the basic design unacceptable in modern vehicles. Also, due to the length of the engine, torsional vibration in both crankshaft and camshaft can adversely affect reliability and performance at high speeds. In particular, a phenomenon referred to as "crankshaft whip," caused by the effects of centrifugal force on the crank throws at high engine rpm, could cause physical contact between the connecting rods and crankcase walls, leading to the engine's destruction. As a result, the design has been displaced almost completely by the shorter and sturdier V8 engine configuration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-eight_engine

VR stands for Vee and Reihe - or a Vee-shaped Inline engine. It's an Inline engine in operational terms (it works mechanically like a straight engine) with a slight offset of the cylinders in an alternating fashion - mirrored by a slight offset of the cranks. Similar to the Ferrari 65° V12 (which is two L6 sharing a crankshaft) which has a 5° offset between the L6es from a regular 60° V12 to make it flatter. This is purely a packaging solution (in the case of the VR6 and derivatives).

The VR engine is shorter than a regular L6 because the offset allows the cylinders to be moved closer together. It's also narrower than a V6.

And no - there will be no VR8 - which would in fact be a straight 8. And yes the W16 can be seen as two VR8s and is in fact a V16 with a slight offset of the crankshaft handles - as I call them.

The cool bit about the VR engines is the way a single camshaft operates the valves of two offset rows of cylinders.

The lesser bit is heat exchange because one row of intakes is flanked by the cylinders of the other row.

Though a neat mechanical solution to look at - I think all VR engines will be fazed out eventually because there no real efficiency benefit while it must be a giant hassle for VAG to make all the newest developments fit this pretty complicated hybrid configuration.

Just have to get people to think V8Turbos are as fancy as W12s - or just put the gearbox in front of the engine so you don't have to make your V12s so short.

4cyl Turbos already replaced the VR6 mostly - if I'm not mistaken - mostly.

-me

[Iroczgirl]

I love straight 8's. Combined with a really heavy flywheel they run almost without any vibration. I've always felt the Packard straight 8's to be the smoothest.

[BattleRabbit]

Any person who can honestly say "I've always felt the Packard was the smoothest" from experience, starts off with an "ok" in my book.

Right on, IrocZGirl.

I have a bit of a bias towards the nine main-bearing eights from the pre-war Studebaker President, but then I come from a Studebaker household.

[dodger21]

One of the cons I remember reading about is crankshaft deflection was an issue due to a large flywheel and just the huge long cranks shaft itself.

[JJS119]

If you want to talk Straight-8's, lets talk about the best Straight-8 built. The Buick Straight-8 aka the Fireball 8 built from 1931 to 1953. My father had a Fireball 8 in his black 1949 Buick Dynaflow. He had it when I was 5 years old and to this day I still remember the power and smoothness of that car/motor. My father sold that car when I was 5, and it is still driving around today. 60+ years without any a motor rebuild. I just was on the phone with him and he says he needs to buy that car back from the guy he sold it to. And my father only says that when he means it. I see some Straight-8ness in my future.

Some Buick Straight-8 information for those who do not know about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Straight-8_engine

And a picture of my a Dynaflow similar to my fathers because this post brought back good memories.

[Snake Hips]

With the size of that MF-er, if you put this in black and white you'd make a convincing photo of a dude building a WWII aircraft engine!