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    Thread: Our coming rentcropper society

    1. Senior Member
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      09-04-2012 03:59 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      This is total crap. Median household income is less than $50K. That's usually with a working couple. The 15% tax bracket is $17,400 to $70,700 for "married filing jointly". The 25% bracket extends up to $142,700. When you introduce real facts into the discussion, your rhetoric makes absolutely no sense. A couple with a couple of rug rats making close to $100K with a house on a 30 year mortgage has enough itemized deductions that they're still in the 15% bracket. Even if they rent and take the standard deduction ($11,900 + 4($3,800)), all but the last couple thousand dollars of a couple with 2 kids making $100K is in the 15% bracket. With a little bit of 401-K or IRA retirement savings, they escape the 25% bracket completely.

      The middle 50% in the US earn something like $51K to $123K (2008 data). ( Citation: http://money.usnews.com/money/busine...class-status/2 )

      If you're in the upper end of that at the 75% percentile for household income, you're still only in the 25% tax bracket. I fail to see how that is any kind of disincentive to work. Federal income tax rates in the US are very low by worldwide standards.

      That's the problem with the economy... Here in the Northeast, if your household takes in only $100k combined. Which can be a $50k / 50k dual income earner. You're going to struggle because it's gonna cost a lot of $$ to keep a family of 4 taken cared of and there won't be much left after rent/daycare/commute cost.

      While the Fed tax rate has not jumped and won't likely jump during and after an Election year. The local and state tax rates have climbed as well as cost of living.

      A family making $120k in the northeast here is just getting by paycheck to paycheck and not having any real savings.

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      09-05-2012 12:02 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      Not really, especially when you consider what you get in return. In Canada for instance, federal income taxes aren't much higher, but with that comes free health care, cheap, decent quality education, and an old age pension, for every single citizen. You pay dearly for all that in the US and are still stuck with a 25% income tax. If I have one surgery with an extended hospital stay during my lifetime in the US, that would likely cost more than all the extra income taxes I would pay living in Canada over a lifetime. Canada has a consumption tax called GST as well as federal income tax and provincial tax as well as sales tax, much like the US has state, county, city sales taxes. My guess is that the US will have to introduce a GST as well.

      Canada
      15% on the first $42,707 of taxable income, +
      22% on the next $42,707 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $42,707 up to $85,414), +
      26% on the next $46,992 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $85,414 up to $132,406), +
      29% of taxable income over $132,406.

      US
      Tax Bracket
      10% Bracket $0 – $8,700
      15% Bracket $8,700 – $35,350
      25% Bracket $35,350 – $85,650
      28% Bracket $85,650 – $178,650
      33% Bracket $178,650 – $388,350
      35% Bracket Over $388,350


      The numbers aren't all that different. In fact the US has a larger maximum rate than Canada.
      This. In planning for a move to Australia I checked my tax bracket there, and I end up paying an additional 3%... but I also get healthcare and other benefits in that tax. The U.S. is a bit high for what we get.

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      09-05-2012 07:54 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
      A family making $120k in the northeast here is just getting by paycheck to paycheck and not having any real savings.
      I know a lot of people that suffered from this problem but don't anymore. They moved.

    4. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      09-05-2012 09:18 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
      A family making $120k in the northeast here is just getting by paycheck to paycheck and not having any real savings.
      It depends on their spending habits. It also depends on which state in the Northeast and where in the state. New Hampshire, for example, doesn't have an income tax or a sales tax. If you pick a town with low property tax rates and live in a modest house, you don't have much of a tax burden at $120K. Massachusetts has a 5.3% flat tax income tax, 6.25% sales tax, and comparatively low property taxes. $120K in Massachusetts is two public school teachers with 16 weeks of paid vacation/holiday time. Outside the 495 belt, that is a fairly comfortable life.

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      09-05-2012 02:10 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      It depends on their spending habits. It also depends on which state in the Northeast and where in the state. New Hampshire, for example, doesn't have an income tax or a sales tax. If you pick a town with low property tax rates and live in a modest house, you don't have much of a tax burden at $120K. Massachusetts has a 5.3% flat tax income tax, 6.25% sales tax, and comparatively low property taxes. $120K in Massachusetts is two public school teachers with 16 weeks of paid vacation/holiday time. Outside the 495 belt, that is a fairly comfortable life.
      MA is better managed than NY/NJ and that's why I have no problem with Romney being the president. Someone who has executive experience vs Obama who has no business nor executive experience making ineffective policies for the country.

      Obama wants to reform Healthcare but won't support union reforms. His tix depends on it. The major problem with GM, States, and any big business are the legacy union entitlement programs that can't be restructured and costing jobs and raising local and state income taxes to fund them.

    6. 09-05-2012 04:23 PM #31
      let's not forget GM makes lots of military vehicles.........

      perhaps that is the real reason they could not let it shut down.......

      one thing they all agree on......a huge military budget or as some call it 'defense budget'..
      ]until that changes demo, republic....all the same

    7. Member maskedSONY's Avatar
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      09-05-2012 05:32 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
      MA is better managed than NY/NJ and that's why I have no problem with Romney being the president. Someone who has executive experience vs Obama who has no business nor executive experience making ineffective policies for the country.

      Obama wants to reform Healthcare but won't support union reforms. His tix depends on it. The major problem with GM, States, and any big business are the legacy union entitlement programs that can't be restructured and costing jobs and raising local and state income taxes to fund them.
      Obama already passed his healthcare law, the problem is that it's been given such an industry-flavored bent that it won't go into full force until 2014. 2014 is when we will find out how effective this bill really will be, and how far Republicans will go to stop it provided Obama stays in office.

      I didn't really want to respond to my own thread because I felt the first couple of posts were really missing the point of the whole article I linked to. You may perceive that the author is writing about a large number of people who will be stuck into a rentcropper society, but that doesn't instantly mean you are going to be swept up into it. Yes you can avoid this whole crappy situation (along with the rest of the upper middle class) by effectively finding the right role within the economy and get along just fine. However, as GeoffD really effectively, explains, not everybody has such the best or brightest career potential, due to whatever myriad of obstacles or choices they make. (Cliffs notes: Not everybody is Romney, Ryan or even Obama.)

      Some people simply have jobs - teachers, firefighters, social workers, etc. Apparently both parties in this country, along with the our wealthy elite ruling class have basically decided that these folks are non-entities and simply have disregarded their plight. A majority of them will continue trucking along, and will thus start facing the economic tide that will degrade their ability to participate in the economy.

      I really don't understand why so many people what to dismantle the entitlement programs, or the social programs/protections that the government has enacted over prior decades. Seriously, what are you going to replace it with? Destitution? That's not a solution at all. Or will the private sector step in? The private sector wants noting to do with it because it's a giant black hole of spending, and they'd rather have low taxes and cut the programs than have to deal with them.

      The growing income inequality is one problem but the bigger problem is the lack of mobility and that should bother everybody. You will have a large amount of people who will require low-cost access to housing, health care, education, and other essential needs, and if they aren't earning enough or being provided with some form of support, they will be basically economically stagnant and really not contributing anything to our nation's progress.

      This sword cuts both ways, and Republicans basically deny this reality, while Democrats pretend that it doesn't exist.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbiodiesel!
      It really is the perfect, no excuses all-rounder for the rich guy who's accustomed to having it all - the Hybrid version especially. It's like an F-150 Raptor banged an M5 in the men's room of a biker bar. Nobody really wanted the results, but damn - what a set of genes.

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      09-05-2012 05:42 PM #33
      My problem is that if Obama enacts the healthcare reform, that should be the end all to other govt and union worker entitlement programs.

      The problem is that many union folks don't contribute enough to their healthcare and they should be forced to switch over to the medicare program. If they want better services they have to pay more.

      Other entitlements, if you are a govt worker and collect pensions that should automatically cancel your social security checks. SS was designed for private sector folks not govt workers getting pensions.

      The ones in govt getting the highest pensions aren't the hard working men and women building roads or providing security. It's the office workers that are doing IT, accounting, and other paper pushers getting the biggest pension checks. Many of those folks retired and are working in the private sector while collecting pension checks.

      Yet, you can't collect unemployment benefits while working a side job.

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      09-07-2012 10:16 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by a_riot View Post
      The numbers aren't all that different. In fact the US has a larger maximum rate than Canada.
      However, I would guess that our provincial rates are generally higher than your state income tax rates. In Nova Scotia, for example, the top tax bracket pays a combined 50% federally and provincially. So they are paying 1/2 of their income in income taxes, nevermind property tax and a 15% sales tax and other payroll deductions.

      Also, health care is provided provincially, not federally, so the entire cost is not covered by our federal income tax. Furthermore, the Canada Pension Plan is not funded by income tax but by a separate payroll deduction. Max pensionable earnings are just over $50k, so anyone making $50k+ pays in about $2300 annually (with a matched contribution by their employer). Then there's employment insurance; tack on another $840 a year.

      So yes, we enjoy health care and a federal pension (plus old age security) and our federal income tax rates are reasonable. But we pay far higher sales taxes and provincial income taxes, and pay a pretty good chunk towards CPP as well.

      Furthermore, we don't seem to have nearly as many deductions available to us. For example, no mortgage interest deduction (a good thing IMO).

    10. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 10:40 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
      MA is better managed than NY/NJ and that's why I have no problem with Romney being the president.
      No. The Massachusetts state constitution requires a flat state income tax. That is what has kept income taxes low. If they hike taxes, everybody feels it. The state also had a California-like property tax ballot initiative called proposition 2 1/2 many years ago that limits property tax hikes and caps them at 2 1/2% of assessed value. To hike property taxes, the town has to vote for an override in a special election and most of those get voted down. That has limited the growth of city/town local government.

      ...but Massachusetts is hardly "well managed". Local Boston Herald columnist and talk show host Howie Carr has made a 30 year career out of "outing" all the political hacks mooching off the system.

    11. Senior Member beng's Avatar
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      09-14-2012 07:23 PM #36
      Theres opportunity here ......take advantage of the low rates, low prices and rental market growth and purchase an income property
      1 3 4 5 7 8 8 9 10 15 16 23 32 37 42 44 49

      "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"

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      09-27-2012 01:02 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
      Federal income tax rates in the US are very low by worldwide standards.
      I was in the 44% bracket when i worked in Ireland making half of what I make now. F that!
      Where is Kyron ??? http://www.bringkyronhome.org/
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      Quote Originally Posted by genjy View Post
      Yes, there is a high chance that the tractor trailer was the one going 160MPH, not the Porsche GT2 RS.

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      10-05-2012 03:02 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by maskedSONY View Post
      The growing income inequality is one problem but the bigger problem is the lack of mobility and that should bother everybody. You will have a large amount of people who will require low-cost access to housing, health care, education, and other essential needs, and if they aren't earning enough or being provided with some form of support, they will be basically economically stagnant and really not contributing anything to our nation's progress.
      Yes, it is lack of economic mobility that is of greater concern. The US has already fallen behind Europe in that respect in that an American is more likely to grow up into the same socioeconomic class as his/her father than a European is -- i.e. socioeconomic success or lack thereof depends on a greater degree of inherited socioeconomic status than one's own ability and effort in the US than in Europe.

      Places with low economic mobility tend to have problems like political instability (e.g. poor otherwise-hopeless people grasping for straws offered by far-left politicians -- not exactly good for anyone, including the wealthy), crime (even if you are wealthy, do you really want to have to drive an armored car and hire bodyguards and other heavy security?), and less economic growth (if a lot of potential talent is wasted, the economy is smaller than it otherwise would be -- even the wealthy may find that their businesses and investments do less well if no one else has money to buy from them).

      Quote Originally Posted by maskedSONY View Post
      This sword cuts both ways, and Republicans basically deny this reality, while Democrats pretend that it doesn't exist.
      Or the Democrats have no clue the problem exists and are not organized enough to do anything about it if they do figure out that it exists, while the Republicans seem to want to accelerate the problem with their emphasis on eliminating taxes on inheritance and reducing taxes for the top 1%.
      Last edited by tjl; 10-05-2012 at 03:05 AM.

    14. Member GeoffD's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 09:18 AM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      Yes, it is lack of economic mobility that is of greater concern. The US has already fallen behind Europe in that respect in that an American is more likely to grow up into the same socioeconomic class as his/her father than a European is -- i.e. socioeconomic success or lack thereof depends on a greater degree of inherited socioeconomic status than one's own ability and effort in the US than in Europe.

      Places with low economic mobility tend to have problems like political instability (e.g. poor otherwise-hopeless people grasping for straws offered by far-left politicians -- not exactly good for anyone, including the wealthy), crime (even if you are wealthy, do you really want to have to drive an armored car and hire bodyguards and other heavy security?), and less economic growth (if a lot of potential talent is wasted, the economy is smaller than it otherwise would be -- even the wealthy may find that their businesses and investments do less well if no one else has money to buy from them).



      Or the Democrats have no clue the problem exists and are not organized enough to do anything about it if they do figure out that it exists, while the Republicans seem to want to accelerate the problem with their emphasis on eliminating taxes on inheritance and reducing taxes for the top 1%.
      In general, the people who need to move live in regions with an eroding middle class. Tampa. Phoenix. Las Vegas. Rust Belt. If you own a house there, you're not mobile even if you have 21st century job skills.

    15. Member HI SPEED's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 09:23 PM #40
      This is why I purchased rentals before my own home.

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      10-11-2012 11:27 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      i.e. socioeconomic success or lack thereof depends on a greater degree of inherited socioeconomic status than one's own ability and effort in the US than in Europe.
      due in no small part, i suspect, to greater access to higher education in europe.
      thats quickly becoming only a pursuit of the well to do here in the us... education budget cuts, for the win!

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      11-12-2012 04:22 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      My American dream is based on education (I still ave 50hrs of continued ed credits a year at age 47), working my a$$ off (I work 45-60 hrs a week for 25 yrs now), constantly setting realistic goals, constantly seeking greater challenges and networking (I've been in the same exact role at my employer 5.5 yrs and still interview for other opportunities 3-5x a year), not expecting any cushy entitlements and manipulating the system as best i can for my own benefit. Do all that and you'll be just fine.

      Simple rule: you get out of life what you put into it!
      no offense man but that sounds like a ****ty life

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      11-14-2012 02:39 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by shadylurker View Post
      no offense man but that sounds like a ****ty life
      There's quite a nice monetary reward on the 15th and 30th of each month. Not to mention a 30% bonus paid every 2/15 (last yr it was > 50K). Plus 6 wks paid vacation and 10 paid holidays. Sorry to disappoint...but if you saw the quality of life for me, my wife and my 4 kids, my personal travel schedule, my hobbys, the charitable efforts I support, etc... I live the complete opposite of a ***ty life...thank you very much!

      I stand by my..."you get out of life what you put into it" belief.

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