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    Thread: Lance stripped of all TDF titles/lifetime ban

    1. Member
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      08-23-2012 10:59 PM #1
      Just saw this on Twitter.

      http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ap-excl...2829--spt.html

      AP Exclusive: Armstrong won't fight USADA charges

      AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — Lance Armstrong said Thursday night he is finished fighting a barrage of drug charges from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, putting his unprecedented string of seven Tour de France titles at risk along with his legacy as one of the greatest cyclists in history.

      The decision sets up a likely lifetime ban from the sport and the possibility that Armstrong will be stripped of his signature achievement — the extraordinary run of Tour titles he won from 1999-2005.

      Armstrong, who retired last year, declined to enter arbitration — his last option — because he said he was weary of fighting accusations that have dogged him for years. He has consistently pointed to the hundreds of drug tests that he has passed as proof of his innocence.

    2. Member GA_wagoneer's Avatar
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      08-23-2012 11:05 PM #2
      It's ridiculous how much people want others to fail nowadays. He passed drug tests, and if he WAS using something at the time that wasn't illegal then, but is now, where is the argument?

      May as well strip Babe Ruth since he was drunk 99% of the time.

      The world has gone retarded.

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      08-23-2012 11:49 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by GA_wagoneer View Post
      The world has gone retarded.

      Absolutely.

      Why don't they go back to when he was 13 and was winning triathlons all over the country ? Surely, he was taking drugs back then too.

      Fvkn' idiots!

    4. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 12:42 AM #4
      Tomorrow morning Ulrich wakes up to find out he just won 3 more Tour De France titles.

      Four a grand total of 4.

      And 5 Tour de France wins remains the most ever won by a single rider.
      Last edited by Hawk; 08-24-2012 at 12:57 AM.

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      08-24-2012 12:57 AM #5
      I don't doubt that he did. My question is, does anyone think that the vast majority of his competitors weren't also doping? So what's the point in pursuing this witch hunt for years and years after his last victory. It's totally pointless.

    6. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 01:14 AM #6
      So let's see, everything Lance has ever accomplished as a pro rider is about to be erased and all his former teammates/friends have turned on him.

      Oh and he's banned from competing in triathlons which is his new thing.

      Next step, his Live Strong foundation will start to distance themselves from him.

      And then former sponsors may start suing him.

      Not a good day to be Lance.

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    7. Member RzinDubs's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 01:59 AM #7
      It doesn't sound like he wants to play along anymore. Here is his statement from Thursday.

      There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense.

      I had hoped that a federal court would stop USADA’s charade. Although the court was sympathetic to my concerns and recognized the many improprieties and deficiencies in USADA’s motives, its conduct, and its process, the court ultimately decided that it could not intervene.

      If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA’s process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and – once and for all – put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?

      From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA’s own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today.

      The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged ex-teammate can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It’s an unfair approach, applied selectively, in opposition to all the rules. It’s just not right.

      USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially not Travis Tygart.

      Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.

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      08-24-2012 06:33 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
      I don't doubt that he did. My question is, does anyone think that the vast majority of his competitors weren't also doping? So what's the point in pursuing this witch hunt for years and years after his last victory. It's totally pointless.
      It's already been proven that everyone else was doping - and yet he won clean? Sure.
      Sent from my basement using two tin cans and a string.

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      08-24-2012 07:47 AM #9
      A few things:

      -They ALL were on the AvGas in that era.
      -Lance doped...so what? If one is to follow the very letter of the Law, he shouldn't be stripped.
      -For good, and/or bad, Lance brought people into the sport.
      -Lance raised millions for cancer awareness.
      -The USADA broke it's own rules chasing this investigation.
      -Heroes and winners in EVERY sport have doped. Merckx, Pantani, Clemens, Bonds, all of the NFL...
      -Sit around and say "I told you so...", but if you were a fan when LA was winning, you went crazy when he won. If you say you didn't, you're a liar.
      -DO I care? Not a bit. Lance will always be the winner of those Tours to me...and most other fans.
      -Do I love cycling less this morning? Nope.
      -Do I think less of Lance? Nope.
      -Do I think less of the USADA and USA Cycling? Yep.
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      08-24-2012 08:13 AM #10
      Best quote I have seen on this issue:
      "I'm absolutely convinced that he did, but I'm also convinced that he is the victim of a witch hunt,"

      The guy may of cheated but no one can prove it. Let it go. Too bad for him. There goes another hero and now a huge sour note on cycling. Way to promote your sport.

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      08-24-2012 08:14 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Tomorrow morning Ulrich wakes up to find out he just won 3 more Tour De France titles.
      what annoys me is that the the "winner" seems to be the only one focused on. yeah, there is a chance that ulrich will get handed those 3 tour titles... but is HE going to get busted for doping? i DOUBT it. if you want to hand the title off to someone who wasn't doping, you better move that sucker waaaaaaaaay down the peleton.

      i know others have been busted for doping that weren't tour winners, but i can't think of a single time when a 2nd or 3rd place finisher gets caught. it's like there's a hyper-focused death ray on the winner and then everyone else gets the same "easier" treatment.

    12. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 08:57 AM #12
      Curious what category posters in this thread would put themselves in:

      1) Believe Lance never took steroids, human growth hormone or EPO

      2) Believe Lance probably took steroids, human growth hormone or EPO but is not guilty because he never got caught/failed a drug test.

      3) Believe he is guilty of taking steroids, human growth hormone or EPO but who don't care because everyone is taking that stuff.

      4) Believe he was guilty for a long time and is glad the record is finally reflecting that.

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      08-24-2012 08:58 AM #13
      Can someone please show me where it's properly stated that he has actually been stripped of the title already please?

      Some headlines are claiming this, but I see no statements confirming it or stating that will automatically happen as the clock strikes to close the window for making challenges to the USADA.
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      08-24-2012 09:00 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Curious what category posters in this thread would put themselves in:

      1) Truly believe Lance never took steroids, human growth hormone or EPO

      2) Believe Lance probably took steroids, human growth hormone or EPO but is not guilty because he never failed a drug test.

      2.5) Believe Lance probably took steroids, human growth hormone or EPO but was not found guilty because he never failed a drug test.

      3) Believe he is guilty of taking steroids, human growth hormone or EPO but who don't care because everyone is taking that stuff.
      Changed the wording to closer to what I think..
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      08-24-2012 10:19 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by the brit View Post
      Changed the wording to closer to what I think..
      My sentiments as well. Hundreds of clean tests and what, two are non-negative?

      The USADA can't get him dead to rights, so they're going on heresay in exchange for lighter sanctions. Seems perfectly legit.
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      08-24-2012 10:50 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Schmidt View Post
      The USADA can't get him dead to rights, so they're going on heresay in exchange for lighter sanctions. Seems perfectly legit.
      So what if he never tested positive. Neither did plenty of other atheletes that were later found guilty of doping.

      1) Do you honestly believe he never took steroids, human growth hormones or EPO?

      2) Do you believe all his teammates are lying?

      3) Do you believe he alone rode totally clean and beat all the dopers?

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      08-24-2012 11:01 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by the brit View Post
      Changed the wording to closer to what I think..
      +2 on this

      The UCI and the USADA don't much like one another and the former feels that the latter oversteps it's authority w/re to international competition and its mandates. It is NOT a given that Lance will be stripped of his titles. Lance will likely be banned from competing in the US or on behalf of a US sanctioned team which is a shame.

      I think he doped but I don't know if the substances he used were banned at the time or not. In any case, I don't believe that the doping gave him an unfair advantage because the sport is rife with it. Doping is almost mandatory it in order to maintain a level playing field.

      All other things being equal, Lance was still the best rider simply because he was the most dedicated trainer on the Tour. His year-round regimen raised the bar for everyone else and I gather that many hated him for it.
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      08-24-2012 11:02 AM #18
      Some things I don't understand - if USADA broke their own rules in the "witch hunt", why was this allowed to happen?

      Doesn't UCI run Le Tour and if so, why can't or does the UCI see the USADA as being wrong? Didn't the UCI say several times that it cannot/will not pursue the matter anymore, particularly if Lance is retired? If UCI thinks USADA over-stepped their bounds, can't they tell them to pound sand, we're not changing anything?

      I guess I don't understand the relationship between USADA and UCI and what rules apply to each.

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      08-24-2012 11:07 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      So what if he never tested positive. Neither did plenty of other atheletes that were later found guilty of doping.

      1) Do you honestly believe he never took steroids, human growth hormones or EPO?

      2) Do you believe all his teammates are lying?

      3) Do you believe he alone rode totally clean and beat all the dopers?

      No, I believe he's just as dirty as the rest of the field. His teammates, amongst others, are coming out of the woodwork either for financial gain, notoriety, or to receive lesser bans and sanctions from the USADA.

      My issue with the decision of the USADA is that their entire case was seemingly based on hearsay after a failed attempt by the FDA to nail Armstrong. If the USADA has hard evidence of his guilt, lay it out for all to see. Sorry, but Hammilton looking to hock his book isn't evidence in my opinion, and the UCI seems to agree.
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      08-24-2012 12:09 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by merckx56 View Post
      A few things:

      -They ALL were on the AvGas in that era.
      -Lance doped...so what? If one is to follow the very letter of the Law, he shouldn't be stripped.
      -For good, and/or bad, Lance brought people into the sport.
      -Lance raised millions for cancer awareness.
      -The USADA broke it's own rules chasing this investigation.
      -Heroes and winners in EVERY sport have doped. Merckx, Pantani, Clemens, Bonds, all of the NFL...
      -Sit around and say "I told you so...", but if you were a fan when LA was winning, you went crazy when he won. If you say you didn't, you're a liar.
      -DO I care? Not a bit. Lance will always be the winner of those Tours to me...and most other fans.
      -Do I love cycling less this morning? Nope.
      -Do I think less of Lance? Nope.
      -Do I think less of the USADA and USA Cycling? Yep.
      I find myself agreeing with more and more of your posts and this one is no different. Absolutely, 100% agree.

    21. 08-24-2012 12:17 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by merckx56 View Post
      A few things:

      -They ALL were on the AvGas in that era.
      -Lance doped...so what? If one is to follow the very letter of the Law, he shouldn't be stripped.
      -For good, and/or bad, Lance brought people into the sport.
      -Lance raised millions for cancer awareness.
      -The USADA broke it's own rules chasing this investigation.
      -Heroes and winners in EVERY sport have doped. Merckx, Pantani, Clemens, Bonds, all of the NFL...
      -Sit around and say "I told you so...", but if you were a fan when LA was winning, you went crazy when he won. If you say you didn't, you're a liar.
      -DO I care? Not a bit. Lance will always be the winner of those Tours to me...and most other fans.
      -Do I love cycling less this morning? Nope.
      -Do I think less of Lance? Nope.
      -Do I think less of the USADA and USA Cycling? Yep.
      Couldn't have written it better myself.

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      08-24-2012 12:27 PM #22
      OK I understand that the USADA has the authority to ban LA from competing in sanctioned events within the US. But does that authority extend to international events?

      What about the TdF titles? USADA doesn't award those, so do they have the authority to strip them, or does that fall to the UCI? What is the UCI position on Lance?
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    23. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 02:05 PM #23
      I think Lance honestly believes because he didn't get caught, he didn't cheat.

      I agree, he never failed a drug test. That's self evident.

      But does anyone on here honestly think he never took steroids, human growth hormones or EPO?

      Simple question. Does anyone actually believe he's clean?

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      08-24-2012 02:07 PM #24
      I just want to know, wth is "cancer awareness."

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      08-24-2012 02:12 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by GTaye View Post
      OK I understand that the USADA has the authority to ban LA from competing in sanctioned events within the US. But does that authority extend to international events?

      What about the TdF titles? USADA doesn't award those, so do they have the authority to strip them, or does that fall to the UCI? What is the UCI position on Lance?
      No, the USADA does not have the authority to strip his titles. The can (and probably will) recommend to the UCI that he should be stripped, but I as I said before, this is far from certain. The UCI said before that they were done investigating him when he retired, and they have taken umbrage with the USADA in the past for overreach.
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      08-24-2012 02:19 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Schmidt View Post
      If the USADA has hard evidence of his guilt, lay it out for all to see. Sorry, but Hammilton looking to hock his book isn't evidence in my opinion, and the UCI seems to agree.
      Will the USADA be able to present a positive doping test?

      No.

      For some, anything short of that isn't hard evidence.

      Will they be able to call forward 10 eye witnesses who said they saw Lance dope, helped Lance dope, or doped with Lance?

      Yes.

      It's not just Hamilton or Landis, it's George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer, Christian Vande Velde and David Zabriskie among others.

      Have they all just got an axe to grind? Are they all just out to get Lance?

      If I were on a cycling team and all the guys I had ridden with for years including my right hand man who had helped me win my Tour de Frances all came out and said I doped, well they're all either huge *******s or I doped.

      The entire team ain't lying.

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      08-24-2012 04:30 PM #27
      I'd go with 2.5) above as well. Really at the end of the day if you are going to pin something on someone you need to be able to prove it...thus far that has not been the case...The amount of no amount of coerced hearsy is really a concrete proof of guilt...

    28. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 04:38 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
      If you are going to pin something on someone you need to be able to prove it...thus far that has not been the case...The amount of no amount of coerced hearsy is really a concrete proof of guilt.
      So in your personal opinion do you believe Lance did or didn't dope?

      I'm not picking on you, I just find it interesting that for all the criticism of USADA and cycling in general nobody has come out so far in this thread and said:

      I Believe Lance Armstrong Never Did EPO, Steroids or Human Growth Hormone!

      Prove me wrong. Someone say it.

      Instead everyone says, aw, it's not fair, USADA is mean, his teammates are jerks, everyone's a cheat etc.... but nobody in this thread will stand up and say, I absolutely believe Lance is totally clean.

      You can't be a little dirty, you either cheated or you didn't.
      Last edited by Hawk; 08-24-2012 at 04:43 PM.

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      08-24-2012 04:52 PM #29
      2.5) Believe Lance probably took steroids, human growth hormone or EPO but was not found guilty because he never failed a drug test.
      ^

      Statistically from the past and the amount of people who were caught doping with or without winning the tour, its definitely not out of the question doping could be a factor. But as with the others who actually failed those tests, the same needs to happen before you are going out to declare your result.

    30. Member RzinDubs's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 05:53 PM #30
      Either he is the most successful athlete or the biggest fraud ever.

      I want to believe he is clean but I don't find the evidence conclusive. For example, Ussain Bolt is an amazing athlete that annihilates the competition and has not posted a positive drug test. He is leaps and bounds above the competition. I would hope that Lance is in the same category.

      For this reason, I will take the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't cheat.

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      08-24-2012 05:57 PM #31
      Bollocks!
      :gift:

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      08-24-2012 06:02 PM #32
      This is just my personal opinion and some may call me nieve......
      Lance is still an inspiration to me no matter what. Anyone that has been on their death bed with cancer and come back to just live a normal life is an isnpiration, but to come back and compete at an elite level in sports is just amazing. I find it hard to believe that Lance (or anyone) would be so ungrateful and stupid enough to be given a second chance at life only to inject poison (EPO, steroids or whatever) in his body. It's my belief that he was so determined to get healthy and return to the same level of cycling and prove wrong all the teams that would not pick him up after his illness. Many of times I have seen commentaries and articles of fellow cyclist saying Lance was the hardest training cyclist around. After team training rides he would keep going on his own. From reading his press statement I take it as him just tired and frustrated with the whole ordeal. I am sure it has taken it's toll on him and family. It is not worth fighting on when family come first and it probably has cost him a fortune in legal fees just to fight these aligations. Until I see hard facts and evidence of these aligations and am still a true believer in his hard work/training to achieve greatness again.

    33. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 06:09 PM #33
      As far as the legal fight goes, he's out of the frying pan and into the fire. The USADA's actions now leave him open to his former sponsors trying to claw back the money they spent on him.
      I am JIMP.

    34. Member merckx56's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 06:53 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      As far as the legal fight goes, he's out of the frying pan and into the fire. The USADA's actions now leave him open to his former sponsors trying to claw back the money they spent on him.
      Never happen. It would be a PR nightmare, and would cost millions of dollars. They'll all just let it go...
      ... you're not a hipster. But you definitely have hipster tendencies. Stay vigilant... like diabetes, you can manage this.
      -20DYNAMITE07

      This thread sucks -Quattro Krant

    35. Member Hawk's Avatar
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      08-24-2012 07:23 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by caragon View Post
      Many of times I have seen commentaries and articles of fellow cyclist saying Lance was the hardest training cyclist around. After team training rides he would keep going on his own.
      It's a well known fact that steroids, EPO and human growth hormones allow you to train harder then you'd normally be able to.

      Until I see hard facts and evidence of these aligations and am still a true believer in his hard work/training to achieve greatness again
      His entire team testifying against him isn't enough evidence for you? You do know other athletes have been able to beat drug testing their entire career only to later admit to doping right?

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