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    Thread: Things were going fine until....control arm bolt snapped.

    1. 09-02-2012 04:48 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by germancarnut51 View Post
      You just don't get it.

      Since you don't work on your own car, don't own a Bentley, and you don't understand how the parts of your car work, you probably don't understand how a drill works, or how to use a broken bolt extractor. You certainly don't understand how bolts break.

      The broken off bolt is recessed close to an inch inside a small diameter hole. The PO says the the broken off piece might be an inch long. Just how do you suggest that the PO, with his limits skills and limited tool selection precision drill a hole for a distance of a minimum of two inches from the nose of the drill, through a harden bolt, when he can't see the broken bolt?

      Remove the subframe and the lower control arm, improve visual access, and decrease the distance from the drill bit to the target surface by 1/2 the distance. Improve the chance of sucess with a minimum of collateral damage. And then, replace the rusty subframe (and the control arms if they are as rusty) because they're already off the car, and there's no reason to reinstall junk parts.
      He'll go out and buy some long bits, and a long extractor. Or, he'll get it back to the shop. You do have a problem with critical thinking if you feel that having this guy remove the sub-frame in a parking lot with no safe means of doing so is going to make his day any easier. It would not surprise me if your "helpful suggestion" was followed up with a hasty PM to the O.P., offering to sell him a "fresh" sub-frame that he "needs" so badly. Stick to hustling parts on the vortex so you can continue to help yourself and be able to stuff food down your gullet. Hopefully you will choke on some of it and relieve us all of your future nonsense.
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      09-02-2012 07:57 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      He'll go out and buy some long bits, and a long extractor. Or, he'll get it back to the shop. You do have a problem with critical thinking if you feel that having this guy remove the sub-frame in a parking lot with no safe means of doing so is going to make his day any easier. It would not surprise me if your "helpful suggestion" was followed up with a hasty PM to the O.P., offering to sell him a "fresh" sub-frame that he "needs" so badly. Stick to hustling parts on the vortex so you can continue to help yourself and be able to stuff food down your gullet. Hopefully you will choke on some of it and relieve us all of your future nonsense.
      You're a Troll, or an Idiot or both. Do you have any idea of what it would cost to ship a subframe from here to there? Of course not, you're a talking head.

      If the OP has no safe way to lift the car up to work on it, and he doesn't have any intention of buying or borrow the right tools to do the job, he should take/tow the car to a shop where a competent and safe repair can be done.

      I don't hustle parts for a living on Vortex. Is that what you do, sell rusty parts? Obviously you don't have any mechanical experience or knowledge. I don't have a subframe for sale (I sold the ones from the cars I parted out years ago for $50 each, including the lower control arms, and the swaybar, because I had no use for them), and even if I did have a spare, I'd still tell the OP to find a local replacement he can go over to, and inspect before he buys.

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      09-02-2012 07:17 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by germancarnut51 View Post
      You're a Troll, or an Idiot or both. Do you have any idea of what it would cost to ship a subframe from here to there? Of course not, you're a talking head.

      If the OP has no safe way to lift the car up to work on it, and he doesn't have any intention of buying or borrow the right tools to do the job, he should take/tow the car to a shop where a competent and safe repair can be done.

      I don't hustle parts for a living on Vortex. Is that what you do, sell rusty parts? Obviously you don't have any mechanical experience or knowledge. I don't have a subframe for sale (I sold the ones from the cars I parted out years ago for $50 each, including the lower control arms, and the swaybar, because I had no use for them), and even if I did have a spare, I'd still tell the OP to find a local replacement he can go over to, and inspect before he buys.
      Wow from all this banter I would say people must think I am totally incompetent. I do own all the proper tools to do most things, except...pull an engine, drop a subframe/transmission. There are factors where I live, such as climate, shade, parking space, etc. It is a dusty dirt parking lot in VT. I could basically do anything in this lot, though most of the time I don't want to because it gets annoying. I thought I went over all this before.Yes I have a jack, jack stands and 3/8" 1/2" torque wrenches, VW special tools, sockets, allen keys, vice grips, nice power drill, proper chems, angle grinder, cut off wheels, dremel, and many other bits and pieces. This bolt breaking was unexpected and I should have prepared myself when I started taking it apart. I did not do that and I learned my lesson. I find it interesting that no one mentioned getting at the cap nut and making a small hole in it to load it with PB for a few days. There are plenty of threads on this forum where people have had this same issue, none of which that I read involved a new subframe or even having to remove it. Who knows maybe I will have to do that but I doubt it. Yes I have BN control arms with the bushings in them, and sway bar end links. I have replaced everything on my front suspension except the control arms, in a dusty lot with said improper tools . Everything torqued to spec, copper anti-seize, all proper greases, bolts, etc. After putting things together properly when I take stuff apart with hand tools it's so easy. I did my front rotors and pads the other day in like 20 mins with hand tools.

      This is how far it is to the bolt lodged in the captive nut...not even 2" in fact it is shorter than a fluted bolt extractor.


      When I drill the hole I will be stepping it from smallest to largest, so it will resemble a cone, this way the bolt extractor will have the most amount of surface to grab onto. After the PB trickles down and lubricates the entire thread surface area I doubt it will be much trouble to back it out, without the PB in there I'm sure it would not work as well. There was no rust on the bolt and I doubt it was installed correctly, or replaced the last time it was apart. You can see the corrosion clearly. This bolt does not appear to be of good quality like the ones I got from the dealer.

      This is another interesting thread with lots of arguing. You all should read it. It specifically deals with these bolts.

      I'm sure Germancarnut51 will recognize this thread when he reads it. One thing I have learned about getting feedback from others is that you take what you can apply and let the rest fly. You make your own educated decision and go from there, even if you are wrong. It's called learning from your mistakes.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ntrol+arm+bolt
      I have Thursday, Friday and Sat off this week and will fix this by Sunday come hell or high water.

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      09-02-2012 10:23 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by VT-MKJett View Post
      Wow from all this banter I would say people must think I am totally incompetent. I do own all the proper tools to do most things, except...pull an engine, drop a subframe/transmission. There are factors where I live, such as climate, shade, parking space, etc. It is a dusty dirt parking lot in VT. I could basically do anything in this lot, though most of the time I don't want to because it gets annoying. I thought I went over all this before.Yes I have a jack, jack stands and 3/8" 1/2" torque wrenches, VW special tools, sockets, allen keys, vice grips, nice power drill, proper chems, angle grinder, cut off wheels, dremel, and many other bits and pieces. This bolt breaking was unexpected and I should have prepared myself when I started taking it apart. I did not do that and I learned my lesson. I find it interesting that no one mentioned getting at the cap nut and making a small hole in it to load it with PB for a few days. There are plenty of threads on this forum where people have had this same issue, none of which that I read involved a new subframe or even having to remove it. Who knows maybe I will have to do that but I doubt it. Yes I have BN control arms with the bushings in them, and sway bar end links. I have replaced everything on my front suspension except the control arms, in a dusty lot with said improper tools . Everything torqued to spec, copper anti-seize, all proper greases, bolts, etc. After putting things together properly when I take stuff apart with hand tools it's so easy. I did my front rotors and pads the other day in like 20 mins with hand tools.

      This is how far it is to the bolt lodged in the captive nut...not even 2" in fact it is shorter than a fluted bolt extractor.


      When I drill the hole I will be stepping it from smallest to largest, so it will resemble a cone, this way the bolt extractor will have the most amount of surface to grab onto. After the PB trickles down and lubricates the entire thread surface area I doubt it will be much trouble to back it out, without the PB in there I'm sure it would not work as well. There was no rust on the bolt and I doubt it was installed correctly, or replaced the last time it was apart. You can see the corrosion clearly. This bolt does not appear to be of good quality like the ones I got from the dealer.

      This is another interesting thread with lots of arguing. You all should read it. It specifically deals with these bolts.

      I'm sure Germancarnut51 will recognize this thread when he reads it. One thing I have learned about getting feedback from others is that you take what you can apply and let the rest fly. You make your own educated decision and go from there, even if you are wrong. It's called learning from your mistakes.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ntrol+arm+bolt
      I have Thursday, Friday and Sat off this week and will fix this by Sunday come hell or high water.


      Yeah, I recognize that thread.

      The whole arguement in that Thread stems from John Stamos not knowing the difference between Torque To Yield Tightening and the bolts that are used that way, AND Torque Angle Tightening. Two similar ways to tighten bolts, one which requires the replacement of the bolts each time they are removed, and the other, a tightening method considered to be more accurate than using a torque wrench that does not require the replacement of the bolt each time it's removed.

      I provided John Stamos with the link to a magazine article that explained the difference and how people can confuse one with the other. But he still contends that only Torque To Yield exists. Then again, he never admits that he's wrong, no matter how much evidence is provided to prove him wrong. He's another inexperienced talking head that you would be better off ignoring.

      In the past he's given people advice on the oil weight to run in their engines, that contrary to what both VW and the oil manufacturers recommend, because he claims to know better. And he claims that solid brake rotors dissipate heat better and faster than vented rotors, and that "Racers" use solid brake rotors instead of vented brake rotors for that reason alone.

    5. 09-02-2012 10:59 PM #40
      Hey glad you figured that out.


    6. 09-02-2012 11:04 PM #41
      OP, that corrosion looked like anti-seize in the pics. You should take that broken fastener and compare the bolt width, and the thread thickness and pitch to the new oem one. If they are different, you might not be able to simply remove the old piece and slap in the new one, if the bolt was not the right one and the captive nut threads have been galled out or stripped due to that.

      Quote Originally Posted by germancarnut51 View Post
      You're a Troll, or an Idiot or both.
      Nah, not trolling or an idiot. All that you need to understand is that I simply don't like you! You generally come off as a holier-than-thou condescending douche- bag, who often likes to portray a situation as hopeless or insurmountable when it is not. Old men with health problems tend to get that way. Must be tough to realize that you are going through body break-down in your waning years. Ha ha ha, I laugh at your situation.

      I had already corrected your ASSumptions that I don't have knowledge or experience, or proper literature, when you were trying to convince me that I needed to buy a new door to fix a bad hinge. Thanks for clearing up the TTY fastener argument though, I'll admit that I thought those rear bolts were stretch bolts.

      Anyway, have fun sucking down alcohol and painkillers while you spend the majority of days here on vwvortex, you seem to need this place so you can post the same things over and over again, in order to keep your fragile ego intact. Maybe *you* should listen to *yourself* talk once in a while, and you'll realize what a talking head sounds like .
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      09-02-2012 11:14 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      OP, that corrosion looked like anti-seize in the pics. You should take that broken fastener and compare the bolt width, and the thread thickness and pitch to the new oem one. If they are different, you might not be able to simply remove the old piece and slap in the new one, if the bolt was not the right one and the captive nut threads have been galled out or stripped due to that.



      Nah, not trolling or an idiot. All that you need to understand is that I simply don't like you! You generally come off as a holier-than-thou condescending douche- bag, who often likes to portray a situation as hopeless or insurmountable when it is not. Old men with health problems tend to get that way. Must be tough to realize that you are going through body break-down in your waning years. Ha ha ha, I laugh at your situation.

      I had already corrected your ASSumptions that I don't have knowledge or experience, or proper literature, when you were trying to convince me that I needed to buy a new door to fix a bad hinge. Thanks for clearing up the TTY fastener argument though, I'll admit that I thought those rear bolts were stretch bolts.

      Anyway, have fun sucking down alcohol and painkillers while you spend the majority of days here on vwvortex, you seem to need this place so you can post the same things over and over again, in order to keep your fragile ego intact. Maybe *you* should listen to *yourself* talk once in a while, and you'll realize what a talking head sounds like .


      I love vortex sometimes.

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      09-02-2012 11:16 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by 'dubber View Post
      OP, that corrosion looked like anti-seize in the pics. You should take that broken fastener and compare the bolt width, and the thread thickness and pitch to the new oem one. If they are different, you might not be able to simply remove the old piece and slap in the new one, if the bolt was not the right one and the captive nut threads have been galled out or stripped due to that.
      Yes I already did that and they are correct, I was thinking the same thing and that was the first thing I checked when I got the new bolts. Does ant-seize dry to a powder like substance over time?

      So I suppose replacing these bolts is not necessary but if you live in the Northeast or areas where there is a lot of corrosion, I would replace them. The total at the dealer was $15.40 for all four not $24. First they said 24$ on the phone then I went there and they said 15$...I didn't say a word.

      So apparently all this thread is missing is Stamos's 2 cents. I'll be waiting.

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      09-03-2012 08:28 AM #44
      If its corrosion you may see evidence of pitting on those threads. If its anti seize maybe it shouldnt be on there. The bentley proccedure for installing these bolts tells you to make sure there is no waxy substance on the bolts. Maybe it would have been better to use a impact gun to remove these bolts(bangs it loose first)? regardless I think the safest way to deal with this, is too remove the entire subframe so it gives you better access for drilling and extracting. make sure you center punch bolt first before you start drilling. gl

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      09-03-2012 11:31 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by germancarnut51 View Post
      Remove the subframe and the lower control arm, improve visual access, and decrease the distance from the drill bit to the target surface by 1/2 the distance. Improve the chance of sucess with a minimum of collateral damage. And then, replace the rusty subframe (and the control arms if they are as rusty) because they're already off the car, and there's no reason to reinstall junk parts.
      You have clearly never lived in a state in the salt belt. Nobody could afford to drive a car if they replaced every part that was rusty.

      In places where they salt the roads, no car can be repaired clinically by the manual. You have to work around the rust, it's just an extra hurdle.

      Also, it takes a keyboard commando to know one. You give a lot of ****ty advice; I suggest going outside once in a while
      Quote Originally Posted by soccergk
      looks like chocolate pudding....why the hell did you paint it brown? to match the **** you have for brains

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      09-03-2012 07:25 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by heerschap View Post
      If its corrosion you may see evidence of pitting on those threads. If its anti seize maybe it shouldnt be on there. The bentley proccedure for installing these bolts tells you to make sure there is no waxy substance on the bolts. Maybe it would have been better to use a impact gun to remove these bolts(bangs it loose first)? regardless I think the safest way to deal with this, is too remove the entire subframe so it gives you better access for drilling and extracting. make sure you center punch bolt first before you start drilling. gl
      I have read your thread and I know you have some good experience with rust. However I don't own air tools. I also have read numerous times that when using an impact gun the captive nut has broken free from the body, at least that did not happen. Cannot drop the sub frame currently which was stated earlier in the thread. I'll get it out. Wed I should have some time to work on it if it does not rain. Will see what happens. Good news is over the winter I should be getting a decent shell and using the space below my parents barn to set up a shop for the next couple years. If that happens I will be getting a welder, nice compressor, air tools, sand blaster, etc. I have been looking for something decent to start with and have a few leads, nothing solid yet.

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      09-03-2012 09:25 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by tauntedmonster View Post
      You have clearly never lived in a state in the salt belt. Nobody could afford to drive a car if they replaced every part that was rusty.

      In places where they salt the roads, no car can be repaired clinically by the manual. You have to work around the rust, it's just an extra hurdle.

      Also, it takes a keyboard commando to know one. You give a lot of ****ty advice; I suggest going outside once in a while
      Werd up to this knowledge being dropped.
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      09-03-2012 10:16 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by VT-MKJett View Post
      That means a lot coming from someone in NV! I used to live in Phoenix and went to Las Vegas often, I know how clean the cars are out there. VT is rust central.
      Quote Originally Posted by tauntedmonster View Post
      You have clearly never lived in a state in the salt belt. Nobody could afford to drive a car if they replaced every part that was rusty.

      In places where they salt the roads, no car can be repaired clinically by the manual. You have to work around the rust, it's just an extra hurdle.

      Also, it takes a keyboard commando to know one. You give a lot of ****ty advice; I suggest going outside once in a while
      Buy a car from me.. 1000 dollars more on the price for shipping.. no rust.. end of story..
      autocrats...

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      09-04-2012 12:45 AM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by Pineapplegti ! View Post
      Buy a car from me.. 1000 dollars more on the price for shipping.. no rust.. end of story..
      I would love to get a car from out west. Some day when I have the means I will. I would love to find something decent out there, fly out and road trip it home. Someone in VT is supposed to call me tomorrow about a Jetta that was in CA and has only seen one winter in VT think they want 975$. Will see.

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      09-04-2012 10:47 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by Pineapplegti ! View Post
      Buy a car from me.. 1000 dollars more on the price for shipping.. no rust.. end of story..
      A little hair on my chest and a colorful vocabulary costs a lost less than $1000.
      Quote Originally Posted by soccergk
      looks like chocolate pudding....why the hell did you paint it brown? to match the **** you have for brains

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      09-05-2012 11:01 AM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by tauntedmonster View Post
      A little hair on my chest and a colorful vocabulary costs a lost less than $1000.
      You wouldn't be driving a vehicle that was returning to earth little by little.
      autocrats...

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      09-05-2012 12:28 PM #52
      man

      what school girls...lol. arguing over here..i love vortex.
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      09-09-2012 11:14 PM #53
      Is there some type of metal sleeve that is supposed to go into the control arm bushing so the bolt is nice and snug as it sits in the bushing? Like a metal collar? If so was this an OEM piece of hardware?

      Edit: Mk2 had sleeves, MK3 did not? Or some MK3's did?
      Last edited by VT-MKJett; 09-09-2012 at 11:46 PM.

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      09-10-2012 12:05 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by VT-MKJett View Post
      Is there some type of metal sleeve that is supposed to go into the control arm bushing so the bolt is nice and snug as it sits in the bushing? Like a metal collar? If so was this an OEM piece of hardware?

      Edit: Mk2 had sleeves, MK3 did not? Or some MK3's did?
      I dont think mk3's had sleeves, mine didnt.

    20. 09-10-2012 12:30 PM #55
      My 1998 GLS did. I don't know for sure which car got them and which didn't.
      Quote Originally Posted by mhjett View Post
      I'm convinced you commuted through a salt mine.
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk3_Addicted View Post
      Bariman82 is the king of rust patching...He is the guy you want to talk to.
      My take on fixing a rotten mk3.

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      09-11-2012 01:15 AM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by VT-MKJett View Post
      Is there some type of metal sleeve that is supposed to go into the control arm bushing so the bolt is nice and snug as it sits in the bushing? Like a metal collar? If so was this an OEM piece of hardware?

      Edit: Mk2 had sleeves, MK3 did not? Or some MK3's did?
      Quote Originally Posted by dacto View Post
      I dont think mk3's had sleeves, mine didnt.
      Well they were not in there when I took it apart so I guess not needed. Thanks for the input.

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      09-19-2012 07:22 PM #57
      Finally my Turd is back on the road. Drilling a small hole in the cap nut and loading it with PB Blaster must have helped. Got it up on a lift at a local shop and the owners son was able to remove the bolt end with a pair of needle nose pliers! It came right out and no drilling was necessary. Had no issues with the passenger side. It now drives so very nice. Further evidence of how good people have it who have their own garage or access to one through work or whatever.

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      09-21-2012 11:38 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by germancarnut51 View Post
      Replacing the broken bolt is not going to cure all of the OP problems. His car has extensive rust. My point is to fix the problem, he has to get rid of the rust. Why not start by replacing the rusty parts, instead of trying to replace the rusty bolts holding the rusty parts up?

      The OP is going to need to drop the subframe anyway to gain good access to the broken bolt if he's going to try to drill it out. How can you expect him to be sucessful at drilling out a hardened bolt that recessed an inch or more in a small diameter hole? He won't even be able to see the target with the drill inserted in the hole in the subframe and the lower control arm.

      Dropping the subframe to replace it is no big deal. Maybe if you worked on your car more, and spent less time as a Keyboard Cowboy you would know that. Suspend the engine and transmission with a engine support beam, and disconnect the steering. Then, remove and replace the subframe. Along the way replace the other rotten parts (the engine and transmission mounts are bound to be shot) that you see, and the car will run better than it has in a long time.

      What's so hard about that?
      Forgot to post this GCN...we got the bolt out with needle nose pliers! Glad I didn't mess with my subframe.

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      11-16-2012 01:51 PM #59
      lol this was hysterical, i do agree with OP tho i live in ny and the northeast climate is rust central, i somehow always find myself with a broken bolt

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