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    Thread: BRZ Update (3 month 3,400 miles)

    1. Member Rabbit5GTI's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 03:48 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by x1000rpms View Post
      You make it sound like it's been decades since someone made a proper sports car.

      Fact of the matter is this.. even if you continue to not acknowledge that a 5.0 mustang costs on par with this car and will SMOKE IT - EVEN IN THE TURNS - then fine - they discontinued the great (drivers cars) s2000 and rx8 2 or 3 years back. Miata is still available.

      It's not like this was ever a dead niche - and for the power that the twins come with - it's not a great sports car. In fact I believe it to be hurting this niche because now nissan and honda have both had high ranking executives give press statements saying things like "it is interesting to see how a low powered piece of **** like this can sell - we'll probably make our own versions" This car is damaging what car manufacturers judge to be a sports car.

      The chassis is great - no one will argue with you there.. low placement of lots of weight is good. suspension allows for great drive feel? CHECK CHECK CHECK.

      BUT

      The car is a collab between toyota and subaru. Subaru makes **** ENGINES that crack pistons left and right. Toyota makes crazy reliable engines and the engines that end up in cars like the elise. So which manufacturer do they choose to make the engine? FANTASTIC. Do they put a drivers engine in the car, like a straight 6 or a high revving/high specific output 4 cylinder engine? NO.

      Someone said.. may have been same poster "you live with the chassis." Well.. you also "live with the engine." Sure you can swap an engine out - but if you have the money to do that you probably have the down payment for a used caymen s as well - so if that is the case then you can switch out the chassis and engine and have an actual sports car. I have said before, and will reiterate again, that you can't call a car witht his engine a drivers car or even a sports car. It continues to be a true statement.


      I am with everyone else in this thread that does not get the hype around this car. If you want a weekend toy.. go spend half the money and get a real sports car off the used market. If you want a reliable appliance to haul the kids around on the week days - then get a twin... but don't come up in here talking about "check out my kids in the back seat - this is the greatest sports car ever." as if this car "is like.. the savior of the entire sports car niche"


      and before people start saying that no one ever said this was the greatest sports car ever - you're right. no one has ever said that and no one ever will.

      and before people say that there isn't a lot of hype around the car and people aren't getting overly excited about it - do us all a favor before you refute that and go confirm my count that there were 763 threads about this car last month. Which means that the car lounge is no longer a cool automotive forum site about cars in general - it is a site singularly devoted to the worship of a high mpg, low hp, low tq, **** interior, appliance that people use to get themselves to and from work, while feeling a bit smug about how well suspended their asses are.
      You're seriously the most ****ing retarded regular poster here. Go bitch somewhere else.

    2. Member Khyron's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 04:16 PM #72




      I had an old Supra which I loved driving every day - even with no AC.

      Now I have the same car, with more HP, safer, and gets 25mpg+ no matter how I bag on it.

      If you can't understand why someone would want an E30 M3 or a Supra or a mint MR2 over a bloated modern Mustang/Camaro - well, we can't help you. Just accept you don't understand and move on. I'm sure there's a nice Odyssey with 275 hp to drool over...

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      09-02-2012 04:51 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by Khyron View Post




      I had an old Supra which I loved driving every day - even with no AC.

      Now I have the same car, with more HP, safer, and gets 25mpg+ no matter how I bag on it.

      If you can't understand why someone would want an E30 M3 or a Supra or a mint MR2 over a bloated modern Mustang/Camaro - well, we can't help you. Just accept you don't understand and move on. I'm sure there's a nice Odyssey with 275 hp to drool over...
      Your problem is that you're equating an E30 M3 to the BRZ.

      I can fully understand why someone would want an E30 M3. It's ultra communicative, and very mechanical. It was the precursor to the latest and greatest Ms. There is the nostalgic drive to have an old Motorsport/homologation special. Not to mention that at it's time, it was a superlative car. So people live on that sentiment and still desire the car today.

      The BRZ has none of those things going for it. It just has a similar curb weight/performance; so people naturally compare. But the M3 is a special car today because it was a superlative car in it's time. The brz is a mediocre car today, and will be forgotten tomorrow.

      The BRZ is more 1990 Miata than E30 M3.

    4. Member MVJ1975's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 04:53 PM #74
      Jeez, do we seriously all have blue ones?



      I love little two-door coupes. Always have. I've never owned a car that weighed more than 3000lbs. and have no desire to.

      I like Mustangs, Camaros, etc... they're just not my kind of car.
      Last edited by MVJ1975; 09-02-2012 at 04:55 PM.

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      09-02-2012 04:58 PM #75
      Shame on you BRZ/FR-S buyers for buying the car you wanted! You disagreed with the loudest members of the hive and that's against the rules.

      I'm glad you owners are all enjoying your cars. I'm jealous.

      That said, at least one of you should have gotten a yellow one
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    6. Senior Member Son's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 05:12 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by MVJ1975 View Post
      Jeez, do we seriously all have blue ones?
      Give the public a sporty blue color and they'll buy their car in that. Like 99% of all Skoda Octavia RS's here are blue. People simply don't seem to care if their neighbor has theirs in the same color. If it were me, I'd pick mine in the least popular color.
      Previously known as Son of a B...5er!

    7. Member MVJ1975's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 05:13 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
      Give the public a sporty blue color and they'll buy their car in that. Like 99% of all Skoda Octavia RS's here are blue. People simply don't seem to care if their neighbor has theirs in the same color. If it were me, I'd pick mine in the least popular color.
      The white and black are by far the most popular colors for this car. Red, blue, and orange are at the bottom. That's partly the reason I'm surprised we all have blue.

      The dark blue (Galaxy Blue Silica) on the BRZ is so uncommon as to almost be obscure.
      Last edited by MVJ1975; 09-02-2012 at 05:16 PM.

    8. Senior Member Son's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 05:20 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by omegax18 View Post
      So yeah, me and my brother are owners of the twins . Spirited driving with both you can definitely feel the more tail happy nature of the FR-S versus the more neutral balance of the BRZ.

      I don't understand. You speak of your brother's car as a FR-S, yet it has a Toyota badge. Did your brother rebadge it as a Toyota? Do you guys live in the States? Just wondering, because I just read a Car & Driver article where this guy complains how Toyota should sell this car in the US as a Toyota and not as a Scion.

      Previously known as Son of a B...5er!

    9. Member Smigelski's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 06:44 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by guru7345 View Post
      The RX8( a car released 9 years ago) is a better car than the toyobaru in every possible way except maybe for fuel economy(something a real enthusiast doesn't really care about anyway). Shame on you, Toyota for releasing such an underpowered turd.
      Huh?

      You mean the RX-8 that is (in relation to the BRZ): slower to 60 mph (6.3 vs 6.7 seconds), slower to 100mph (16.4 vs 17.7), slower in the 1/4 mile (14.9 vs 15.1), weighed more (3060lb vs 2764), worse in fuel economy (23mpg vs 15 mpg observed), had worse skidpad results than a car with Prius tires (0.91G vs 0.87G) and a price that was $6,000 more ($26,200 vs $32,600).

      You're telling me that the BRZ is an underperforming turd compared to the RX-8? And this is coming from a guy who likes the RX-8.

      Just to show you that I'm not just talking smack, I'll back it up with sources:

      BRZ:
      http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...napoleon-1.pdf

      RX-8:
      http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

      Cheers.
      Last edited by Smigelski; 09-02-2012 at 06:52 PM.

    10. Member Smigelski's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 06:51 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by mikes96GTI View Post
      Anyone having check engine light/cam timing issues?
      Not here.

      Quote Originally Posted by Smigelski View Post

      Has the vitriol surrounding this car on TCL finally subsided?
      Guess not.

      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      What is Subaru paint?

      I realize paint quality in general has dropped in the past few years for green purposes, but BMW's could bounce off the paint on my black 2002 Outback.
      All of my experience with Subaru paint is that is of substandard quality. The only cars that I've had that seemed to be decent were my Mk5 and Mk6 Jetta Sportwagen and Golf. The rest of my bought-new-or-near-new cars have gotten rock chips pretty easily, including my 2005 Legacy GT.

      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post

      Weren't you just recommending a Miata?
      Having owned two Miatas and driven numerous others, you are bang on. There's nothing really noteworth about those engines, but the cars are fantastic anyway.

      Quote Originally Posted by MVJ1975 View Post
      The white and black are by far the most popular colors for this car. Red, blue, and orange are at the bottom. That's partly the reason I'm surprised we all have blue.
      On FT-86 Club in the pre-order thread, WR Blue was by far the most popular pre-ordered color for the BRZ (39%). The next most popular color was Satin White Pearl, and on the FR-S Argento (White) and black were the most popular colors. At least as far as the BRZ goes, Red seems to be the least popular.


      Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
      I don't understand. You speak of your brother's car as a FR-S, yet it has a Toyota badge. Did your brother rebadge it as a Toyota? Do you guys live in the States? Just wondering, because I just read a Car & Driver article where this guy complains how Toyota should sell this car in the US as a Toyota and not as a Scion.

      His brother re-badged his Scion FR-S with Toyota badges. A lot of people who buy them would rather the FR-S be a Toyota like it is in the rest of the world, and buy the Toyota badges for their own cars.

    11. 09-02-2012 06:54 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Smigelski View Post
      Huh?

      You mean the RX-8 that is (in relation to the BRZ): slower to 60 mph (6.3 vs 6.7 seconds), slower to 100mph (16.4 vs 17.7), slower in the 1/4 mile (14.9 vs 15.1), weighed more (3060lb vs 2764), worse in fuel economy (23mpg vs 15 mpg observed), had worse skidpad results than a car with Prius tires (0.91G vs 0.87G) and a price that was $6,000 more ($26,200 vs $32,600).
      Nice try taking the worst performing RX8 of any test in 9 yrs. The 2003 "Sport" C/D had 96 in the quarter, 5.9 to 60, 15.8 to 100 and .91 on the pad. And could still be bought in 2011 for 24k with no haggling.

      http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...yrevival-2.pdf
      Last edited by Waarp; 09-02-2012 at 06:57 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Aseras View Post
      I got the (RX8) engine replaced at 112K miles not because it failed but because I hit a pig on the interstate.

    12. Member dcmix5's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 06:59 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by Smigelski View Post
      Thanks There haven't been any insane comments in this thread yet. Has the vitriol surrounding this car on TCL finally subsided?
      I blame you...you HAD to say it...
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      I'm filming this thread. Just thought I'd let everyone know. I've had some bad experiences with threads in the past.
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I like when dumb people quote mechanical grip as a metric of whether or not a car is fun to drive. It's like saying McDonald's is the best restaurant because you get a lot of calories for your money.

    13. Member Smigelski's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 07:06 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by Waarp View Post
      Nice try taking the worst performing RX8 of any test in 9 yrs. The 2003 "Sport" C/D had 96 in the quarter, 5.9 to 60, 15.8 to 100 and .91 on the pad. And could still be bought in 2011 for 24k with no haggling.

      http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...yrevival-2.pdf
      I picked the newest review I could find, since we are trying to compare contemporary cars. I appreciate the fact that you included a source, however.

      Even in the 2004 long term test, the RX-8 was putting a 6.6 second 0-60 time. I'm not going to wave my hands and say that the article you cited was bogus. I'm really impressed with its 0-60 time. Also, saying that the RX-8 could be had for way under MSRP is a backhanded compliment. That means that they were overpriced to begin with.

      http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...rx-8-specs.pdf
      My point stands, however, that calling a BRZ an underperformer compared to a RX-8 is foolhardy at best. They are extremely similar cars in mission and execution.

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      09-02-2012 07:10 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      Your problem is that you're equating an E30 M3 to the BRZ.

      I can fully understand why someone would want an E30 M3. It's ultra communicative, and very mechanical. It was the precursor to the latest and greatest Ms. There is the nostalgic drive to have an old Motorsport/homologation special. Not to mention that at it's time, it was a superlative car. So people live on that sentiment and still desire the car today.

      The BRZ has none of those things going for it. It just has a similar curb weight/performance; so people naturally compare. But the M3 is a special car today because it was a superlative car in it's time. The brz is a mediocre car today, and will be forgotten tomorrow.

      The BRZ is more 1990 Miata than E30 M3.
      Bingo! You got it, I highlighted for you the reason this car is so popular. The rest of the reasons you state, buyers don't give a F.


      You need to really be a DRIVER to understand the appeal of this type of underpowered lightweight car. The car is all about feel and balance the act of controlling the car with your inputs. Unlike all the other sports car in the market right now, its NOT about posting up the biggest numbers.

      When I was a kid I used to read all the car magazines and memorize all the specs and performance stats. Being to young to drive and experience these cars for myself that was the only way I could compare cars and "rank" what was "good". As I learned how to drive and tracking seriously pushing a car to the edge of what its capable became the new metric of how to rank a car. I started ranking cars on a different scale. Its much less tangible to quantify the overall behavior and FEEL of a car.

      There is a special feel you only get with a well balanced lightweight rwd car. The Miata has it, the S2000 has it in recent years those have been the only two reasonably affordable options in that class. I can tell you don't understand this yet, or just have not gained enough experience on track or pushing different types of cars hard to have figured this out for yourself because you bring up a Mustang as an argument. On a scale of driver feel, (overall balance, chassis, steering, vehicle responses) they are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Outright speed has nothing to do with it. That's not to say the mustang is a bad car, it is just a sledgehammer and you are comparing it to a scalpel.

    15. 09-02-2012 07:42 PM #85
      If the BRZ was available 2 yrs ago when I bought my 8--assuming I could fit in it-- I woulda bought it instead. Why? 2 reasons. 200 fewer pounds and better mpg. Well 3. The world's easiest oil change.
      Quote Originally Posted by Aseras View Post
      I got the (RX8) engine replaced at 112K miles not because it failed but because I hit a pig on the interstate.

    16. 09-02-2012 07:55 PM #86
      I don't have much to contribute except that I got a short ride in an FR-S last week, and these are my thoughts.
      - It's very tiny.
      - The back seats are nearly useless, even moreso than in the Mustang.
      - The suspension is ridiculously stiff.
      - The interior is pretty basic, but nicely put together.
      - The seats are ridiculously comfy.
      - The car sounds fantastic, even with the automatic transmission.
      - The engine sits ridiculously low to the ground
      - The spark plugs look like a PITA to get to, even more than my '02 WRX's.

      Overall though, it gets a thumbs up from the passenger seat... really want to get a chance to drive one.
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mustang driver

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      I was more annoyed with the implication of being a Browns fan.

    17. Member Khyron's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 09:14 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by cougar View Post
      I don't have much to contribute except that I got a short ride in an FR-S last week, and these are my thoughts.

      - The suspension is ridiculously stiff.
      Just want to mention this - it's firm but not crashy at all. I fly over railroad tracks/manhole covers that would clatter my jaw in my 02 Jetta - or bounce me around in the Santa Fe. You definitely feel everything but it's not harsh in the slightest. My buddy found it smoother than his 09 330i. But there is virtually NO roll, which makes the offramps etc feel great.

    18. Member FlatGTI's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 09:15 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by cougar View Post
      I don't have much to contribute except that I got a short ride in an FR-S last week, and these are my thoughts.
      - It's very tiny.
      - The back seats are nearly useless, even moreso than in the Mustang.
      - The suspension is ridiculously stiff.
      - The interior is pretty basic, but nicely put together.
      - The seats are ridiculously comfy.
      - The car sounds fantastic, even with the automatic transmission.
      - The engine sits ridiculously low to the ground
      - The spark plugs look like a PITA to get to, even more than my '02 WRX's.

      Overall though, it gets a thumbs up from the passenger seat... really want to get a chance to drive one.
      I found it just right. It's about as stiff as a gen1 MS3.

    19. Member Smigelski's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 09:18 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by cougar View Post
      I don't have much to contribute except that I got a short ride in an FR-S last week, and these are my thoughts.
      - It's very tiny.
      - The back seats are nearly useless, even moreso than in the Mustang.
      - The suspension is ridiculously stiff.
      - The interior is pretty basic, but nicely put together.
      - The seats are ridiculously comfy.
      - The car sounds fantastic, even with the automatic transmission.
      - The engine sits ridiculously low to the ground
      - The spark plugs look like a PITA to get to, even more than my '02 WRX's.

      Overall though, it gets a thumbs up from the passenger seat... really want to get a chance to drive one.
      Quote Originally Posted by Khyron View Post
      Just want to mention this - it's firm but not crashy at all. ... But there is virtually NO roll, which makes the offramps etc feel great.
      Quote Originally Posted by FlatGTI View Post
      I found it just right.
      I agree with all of this. There is nearly no body roll in this car. It's awesome. Over bumps it's firm, but the suspension does it's job and it doesn't crash around.

    20. Member Khyron's Avatar
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      09-02-2012 09:22 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by Waarp View Post
      If the BRZ was available 2 yrs ago when I bought my 8--assuming I could fit in it-- I woulda bought it instead. Why? 2 reasons. 200 fewer pounds and better mpg. Well 3. The world's easiest oil change.
      I will just mention that in Canada, a new RX-8 was over 40,000 dollars - after incentives! I was quoted 46K MSRP for an R3. It has the fuel econ of a F150, weird driving requirements (no start/move it up the driveway/stop). And suicide doors are great outside but hopeless if you have a garage. And no spare tire unless you fill the trunk with it. Both RX8 and EvoX were cars I kept coming back to, but couldn't pull the trigger for practicality reasons. Compare that to 28K including all taxes for a FR-S that does everything equally or better (except haul adults in the back) it was a no brainer.

      Again, it's not the best car choice for every person - but it is for a lot of us.

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      09-02-2012 10:36 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by ktk View Post
      Bingo! You got it, I highlighted for you the reason this car is so popular. The rest of the reasons you state, buyers don't give a F.


      You need to really be a DRIVER to understand the appeal of this type of underpowered lightweight car. The car is all about feel and balance the act of controlling the car with your inputs. Unlike all the other sports car in the market right now, its NOT about posting up the biggest numbers.

      When I was a kid I used to read all the car magazines and memorize all the specs and performance stats. Being to young to drive and experience these cars for myself that was the only way I could compare cars and "rank" what was "good". As I learned how to drive and tracking seriously pushing a car to the edge of what its capable became the new metric of how to rank a car. I started ranking cars on a different scale. Its much less tangible to quantify the overall behavior and FEEL of a car.

      There is a special feel you only get with a well balanced lightweight rwd car. The Miata has it, the S2000 has it in recent years those have been the only two reasonably affordable options in that class. I can tell you don't understand this yet, or just have not gained enough experience on track or pushing different types of cars hard to have figured this out for yourself because you bring up a Mustang as an argument. On a scale of driver feel, (overall balance, chassis, steering, vehicle responses) they are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Outright speed has nothing to do with it. That's not to say the mustang is a bad car, it is just a sledgehammer and you are comparing it to a scalpel.
      Look, the Mustang V6 in the grand scheme of things is a turd. It's too big, drives like a boat, and hops all over rough roads like a horse drawn carriage.

      But it's dirt cheap, and is faster (both in a straight line and around a track).

      My primary issue with the FRS/BRZ is the lack of value (second is the lack of power). The Mustang will always be the devil's advocate because it offers both of those things in spades.

      And I drive an E36/7 M roadster. So I understand the appeal of a small, light, communicative car. But again, it's a lot of money for the performance.

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      09-02-2012 11:11 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      Look, the Mustang V6 in the grand scheme of things is a turd. It's too big, drives like a boat, and hops all over rough roads like a horse drawn carriage.


      My primary issue with the FRS/BRZ is the lack of value (second is the lack of power). The Mustang will always be the devil's advocate because it offers both of those things in spades.
      heavy? boat-like? hops over rough roads? That doesnt sound like value. A great handling car that gets excellent gas mileage while sacrificing some HP sounds like a great value to me.

      I've driven a recent V6 mustang for a couple weeks...I don't feel it was much value at all. The interior was dated and bland, so I find it a wash with the toyobaru, and it felt sluggish and fat. So its cheaper...it felt like a cheap car. If you start slapping on extras like the track pack I'm sure it'd improve greatly, but now the value over the toyobaru has serious diminished.

    23. Member Khyron's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 01:47 AM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      Your problem is that you're equating an E30 M3 to the BRZ.

      I can fully understand why someone would want an E30 M3. It's ultra communicative, and very mechanical. It was the precursor to the latest and greatest Ms. There is the nostalgic drive to have an old Motorsport/homologation special. Not to mention that at it's time, it was a superlative car. So people live on that sentiment and still desire the car today.

      The BRZ has none of those things going for it. It just has a similar curb weight/performance; so people naturally compare. But the M3 is a special car today because it was a superlative car in it's time. The brz is a mediocre car today, and will be forgotten tomorrow.

      The BRZ is more 1990 Miata than E30 M3.
      O rly?

      BMW E30 M3
      wheelbase 101.1 in
      2 door coupe
      195 hp (6750 rpm)
      170 ft lbs (4600 rpm)
      4cyl 2,302 cc displacement
      6.9 seconds 0-62 mph (0-100kmh)
      143 mph top speed
      2,724 lbs weight lbs

      BRZ/FRS
      wheelbase 101 in
      2 door coupe
      200 hp (7000 rpm)
      150 ft lbs (6300 rpm)
      4cyl 1,998 cc displacement
      6.3 0-60 mph
      143 mph top speed
      2,750 lbs weight lbs

      More than just a passing coincidence. I'd love an old M3/944/Supra - problem is I don't want a 20 year old car with 20 year old living. THAT is the formula that will make the car a reasonable niche success.

      One other bit of trivia found in my spreadsheets - the 150 hp mk2 supra above has a total wheel diameter of 24.63 inches - the FR-S (on 17s) is 24.62.

    24. Banned 20aeman's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 02:54 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Khyron View Post
      O rly?

      BMW E30 M3
      wheelbase 101.1 in
      2 door coupe
      195 hp (6750 rpm)
      170 ft lbs (4600 rpm)
      4cyl 2,302 cc displacement
      6.9 seconds 0-62 mph (0-100kmh)
      143 mph top speed
      2,724 lbs weight lbs

      BRZ/FRS
      wheelbase 101 in
      2 door coupe
      200 hp (7000 rpm)
      150 ft lbs (6300 rpm)
      4cyl 1,998 cc displacement
      6.3 0-60 mph
      143 mph top speed
      2,750 lbs weight lbs

      More than just a passing coincidence. I'd love an old M3/944/Supra - problem is I don't want a 20 year old car with 20 year old living. THAT is the formula that will make the car a reasonable niche success.

      One other bit of trivia found in my spreadsheets - the 150 hp mk2 supra above has a total wheel diameter of 24.63 inches - the FR-S (on 17s) is 24.62.
      A new E30 M3 in today's money would cost around 60k. That's because for it's time, it performed like a 60k car. But technology has progressed, and the world has moved on. The reason why people want that car is because when it was released, it was the best at what it did.

      Again, the specs/performance are similar...but the history/provenance aren't. Will simply reproducing the spec sheet with none of the character/charisma/flair ensure Toyota success? I dunno....but I wouldn't think so.

    25. Member QWKDTSN's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 04:42 AM #95
      Relevant.


    26. Member 10minutes's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 08:32 AM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      A new E30 M3 in today's money would cost around 60k. That's because for it's time, it performed like a 60k car. But technology has progressed, and the world has moved on. The reason why people want that car is because when it was released, it was the best at what it did.

      Again, the specs/performance are similar...but the history/provenance aren't. Will simply reproducing the spec sheet with none of the character/charisma/flair ensure Toyota success? I dunno....but I wouldn't think so.
      You are missing the whole point. FRS/BRZ buyers are interested in afforable small light weight superb handling car (like Miata but in coupe form). It costs 25K in today's money, which is not much considering how much average car costs these days. It has a great value in that you cannot get any other light weight RWD coupe for 25k in today's market. Developing a car with light weight and great chassis doesn't come free - it's probably more difficult than putting a turbo engine or v6 they have. It doesn't have a history that E30 M3 has. Why? Because it's a brand new car! But if, only if, they continue to develop these light weight RWD coupes, these cars can become just like Miata. Miata didn't earn its reputation overnight.

    27. 09-03-2012 09:53 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by Khyron View Post
      Just want to mention this - it's firm but not crashy at all. I fly over railroad tracks/manhole covers that would clatter my jaw in my 02 Jetta - or bounce me around in the Santa Fe. You definitely feel everything but it's not harsh in the slightest. My buddy found it smoother than his 09 330i. But there is virtually NO roll, which makes the offramps etc feel great.
      Quote Originally Posted by FlatGTI View Post
      I found it just right. It's about as stiff as a gen1 MS3.
      Just to be clear, I didn't mean that the suspension was stiff in a bad way... and my ride in it was in downtown Houston, not exactly the smoothest of roads. I'm also most used to driving an '06 Mustang and a 2010 CX-9, neither of which have suspensions nearly that stiff .
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mustang driver

      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I was more annoyed with the implication of being a Browns fan.

    28. Member Khyron's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 12:20 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      A new E30 M3 in today's money would cost around 60k. That's because for it's time, it performed like a 60k car. But technology has progressed, and the world has moved on. The reason why people want that car is because when it was released, it was the best at what it did.

      Again, the specs/performance are similar...but the history/provenance aren't. Will simply reproducing the spec sheet with none of the character/charisma/flair ensure Toyota success? I dunno....but I wouldn't think so.
      Lots of people (like me) want(ed) the passive safety and the modern convenience of a new car, but all the obtrusive/excess stuff gone - and I include excessive grip/hp in that as well.

      Judging by most of the car reviewers wetting their panties over the twins, I'd say it certainly has some character/charisma/flair, no? You can't watch Chris Harris driving the thing and not catch some of his enthusiasm...

    29. Banned Fritz27's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 12:21 PM #99
      On TCL soul means that it's a German car. Bonus points if it's unreliable.

    30. Geriatric Member SSLByron's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 12:26 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      Look, the Mustang V6 in the grand scheme of things is a turd. It's too big, drives like a boat, and hops all over rough roads like a horse drawn carriage.

      But it's dirt cheap, and is faster (both in a straight line and around a track).
      Until your brakes overheat.

      The Mustang is a better track car after a couple grand in aftermarket upgrades.
      Looking for a ratty Miata? My '90 is for sale.
      http://www.speedsportlife.com
      Quote Originally Posted by mhjett View Post
      4+ pages and at least 1 death threat in a compact-car comparison test thread - oh wait, this is TCL.

    31. Banned 20aeman's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 06:29 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by SSLByron View Post
      Until your brakes overheat.

      The Mustang is a better track car after a couple grand in aftermarket upgrades.
      When motortrend did their best driver's car competition; the BRZ brakes melted down in a couple of laps. Not only that, but they also managed to warp the rotors in a single session.

    32. Member Smigelski's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 08:45 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by guru7345 View Post
      I have to call BS on this one. The car sounds like a defective blender.
      I may not be an expert on car sounds, but it does sound way better than my NC Miata when it was stock.

    33. Geriatric Member SSLByron's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 08:58 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      When motortrend did their best driver's car competition; the BRZ brakes melted down in a couple of laps. Not only that, but they also managed to warp the rotors in a single session.
      So unless you're arguing that the Mustang is better because it does two pre-fade laps faster than the Toyobaru, it sounds like you're agreeing with me.

      Wonder which one will cost less to replace/upgrade pads on...
      Looking for a ratty Miata? My '90 is for sale.
      http://www.speedsportlife.com
      Quote Originally Posted by mhjett View Post
      4+ pages and at least 1 death threat in a compact-car comparison test thread - oh wait, this is TCL.

    34. 09-04-2012 08:49 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
      I don't understand. You speak of your brother's car as a FR-S, yet it has a Toyota badge. Did your brother rebadge it as a Toyota? Do you guys live in the States? Just wondering, because I just read a Car & Driver article where this guy complains how Toyota should sell this car in the US as a Toyota and not as a Scion.

      I am in the states. Yeah, it is rebadged with Toyota emblems. I've actually been switching back and forth between calling it an FR-S or 86. The local toyota dealer is the only one in my area that actually sells the toyota badges for the car (its specially made for the car, so you can't just pick up a camry set and throw em on...I swear they did it on purpose) and they are making a killing right now.

    35. 09-04-2012 08:53 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by guru7345 View Post
      I have to call BS on this one. The car sounds like a defective blender.
      Agree to disagree? I love the sound of a flat-4. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound as good as my Mustang, but...
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mustang driver

      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I was more annoyed with the implication of being a Browns fan.

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