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    Thread: Just wanting to confirm with the gurus (car died while driving home)

    1. Member Blaines_Rocco's Avatar
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      08-27-2012 05:59 PM #1
      So as I was 3 blocks from home, my car just stopped running. I turned the key off then back on and the car "started" but was running real lumpy and I don't think even with flooring the accelerator it got over 500 rpm. So once I got the car to a safe parking lot I went down and felt the relays and one labeled "67" was rather hot. I assume this is the fuel pump relay and that I should order a new one?
      I'm a mechanical engineer, not a mechanic. I know why it works, not how.

    2. 08-27-2012 08:00 PM #2



      Here is a picture, from an earlir thread re: Mk1 Sciroccos btw.

      The two positions to jumper are larger than the other two 'trigger' positions. It's the larger of the four that carry the higer current to the Pump, it's the smaller two of four that are the Relay Trigger posts/sockets.

      It's sometimes useful to be able to jump around a suspected faulty Fuel pump Relay, but this is only a temp measure to be sure- this thing will keep the pump running disregarding the Ignitian Switch position.

      Note:In-Line Fuse, In-Line Fuse, In-Line Fuse.
      I tell you three times.

      Gas is a dangerous thing, proceed w/ caution, disclaimers apply, Bob's yer Uncle, and God didn't make Little Green Apples.

      Threadthat the above picture pertains to...
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4038830/page1

      Also, since it's a 16v, I'd think verifying your TIMING hasn't jumped a tooth, hasn't begun to shear it's Crank KEYWAY, and/or other nefarious 16v unpleasantness...

    3. Member Blaines_Rocco's Avatar
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      08-27-2012 10:25 PM #3
      I just the car back to my house. It started up with no hesitation and idled perfectly around 900 rmp. Drove it the two blocks back with no problems. I already put in a order with GAP for a new relay and see if that fixes it. If not then I guess I will move to testing the pumps.

      Since this has happened to me. It makes me wonder if my split second stall that happened about two weeks ago was because the relay was failing. I had a large open road so I floored it and the car basically shut off very quickly and then came back on. I haven't driven it much since that stall, as I thought it was an electrical thing not getting enough power to the spark plugs. In fact I have spent the past few days looking into redoing all of my major wires and grounding everything I can.
      I'm a mechanical engineer, not a mechanic. I know why it works, not how.

    4. 08-28-2012 12:49 AM #4
      One thing that mashing the pedal does is rock the motor on it's mounts. This can open up an otherwise closed air leak somewhere.

      Also, gas tanks, pumps, and pickups can be susceptible to the force, G-Force that is, w/ crap in the tank and/or swiss-cheezy pickups causing an otherwise OK pump to overwork.

      There's some testing to be done here, you're going to want to see all four spray pattern (esp when you raise the ), a multimeter to see what voltage and resistance are like, and that jumper s pictured in the pic above. Remember, In-Line Fuse.

      It's a drag but this has happened to somebody before, and they fixed it. They prob. had a Bently at hand too...

    5. 08-28-2012 12:49 AM #5
      (Hey, where are the guru's?...)

    6. Member sciroccohal's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 11:37 AM #6
      1. WHY is the relay hot?
      2. Have you checked for oil inside the distributor....ahhh! 16v's twice the cost, half the reliability.
      3 fuel filter (S)
      4. Booster pump screen clogged as well as the transfer tube....classic symptoms.
      5.Ground wiring to pump

      SOMETHING is making the relay hot. Having a spare relay is good....finding out WHY it is failing is BETTER!

      vacuum leaks generally make the engine RUN FASTER...for a while.
      The feeling of immortality extends right up until the moment of impact.
      I cannot teach you how to be a Zen mechanic, grasshopper.
      The VW Scirocco, the worlds fastest ECONOMY car.

    7. Member Blaines_Rocco's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 04:13 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by sciroccohal View Post
      1. WHY is the relay hot?
      2. Have you checked for oil inside the distributor....ahhh! 16v's twice the cost, half the reliability.
      3 fuel filter (S)
      4. Booster pump screen clogged as well as the transfer tube....classic symptoms.
      5.Ground wiring to pump

      SOMETHING is making the relay hot. Having a spare relay is good....finding out WHY it is failing is BETTER!

      vacuum leaks generally make the engine RUN FASTER...for a while.
      When I replaced the distro cap a few months ago there there was no oil in the old one. But I will keep that in mind and see, since it takes just a minute to take off and on.

      Edit*



      The distro cap as of today. Just some gunk on the edge of it nothing touching the points

      Fuel filter was also replace about 2 months ago

      Booster pump and transfer tube will be the next thing to look at if a new relay doesn't solve the problem. That really isn't what I need right now.

      Grounding the outer pump is a good idea.

      I had the car smoked at a shop about 3 months ago they they fixed the 2 tiny vacuum leaks that they could find. All of my vacuum lines are pretty new.
      Last edited by Blaines_Rocco; 08-28-2012 at 06:28 PM.
      I'm a mechanical engineer, not a mechanic. I know why it works, not how.

    8. Member sciroccohal's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 05:56 PM #8
      there are two things (at least!) that'll stop a 16 v in it's tracks;
      1. faulty dying quail ignition switch.
      2. Fault seal in the distributor.....you've eliminated this one.....see above.

      good luck.
      The feeling of immortality extends right up until the moment of impact.
      I cannot teach you how to be a Zen mechanic, grasshopper.
      The VW Scirocco, the worlds fastest ECONOMY car.

    9. Member alteschule's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 07:13 PM #9
      Each time the relay is energized...contacts inside touch each other...just like an old school set of ignition points...after hundreds,or thousands of activations,the contacts get burned,creating resistance..(heat). Try a new relay and see if it doesnt get hot...duh!

    10. Member Blaines_Rocco's Avatar
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      09-05-2012 10:02 PM #10
      Well I would post up a pic of my old relay, but photobucket is giving me hell. So anyway when I pulled the relay I found one of the terminals was really discolored and blacked. Hopefully the new relay will fix it.

      Last edited by Blaines_Rocco; 09-06-2012 at 08:49 AM.
      I'm a mechanical engineer, not a mechanic. I know why it works, not how.

    11. Member Blaines_Rocco's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 12:14 PM #11
      Well unfortunatly the relay didn't fix it. Yesterday when I was driving I hit a bump in the road and it nearly stalled me out. So I guess the next step is look at the in tank pump, because it runs fine most of the time and then at random to starves out of gas.

      And I have just under half a tank of gas, so I know I'm not out.
      I'm a mechanical engineer, not a mechanic. I know why it works, not how.

    12. Member Teighlor O''s Avatar
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      09-07-2012 01:48 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Blaines_Rocco View Post
      Well unfortunatly the relay didn't fix it. Yesterday when I was driving I hit a bump in the road and it nearly stalled me out. So I guess the next step is look at the in tank pump, because it runs fine most of the time and then at random to starves out of gas.

      And I have just under half a tank of gas, so I know I'm not out.

      Ignition switch?
      "Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people."
      -George Bernard Shaw

    13. Member scirocconaut's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 04:48 PM #13
      Have you replaced the fuel filter?

    14. Member sciroccohal's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 07:15 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by Teighlor O' View Post
      Ignition switch?

      Blaine.....disconnect battery.
      Get comfortable in the foot well
      pull relay plate...fusebox
      one by one pull the big plugs from the BACK of the box....check CAREFULLY.
      If you see a burnt pin...fortunately it has a number on it.
      The plugs are lettered A,B etc the the pin has a number on it.....So something like A13
      Look up in Bentley as to what the number goes to. It's on the wiring diagram.
      Look at all the other spade connectors.

      Check the main engine grounds...Especially the one behind and below the battery to the inner fenderwell and to the tranny..it will not run with a bad ground..

      The smoking gun here is when you hit a bump it intermittently goes OFF.
      The feeling of immortality extends right up until the moment of impact.
      I cannot teach you how to be a Zen mechanic, grasshopper.
      The VW Scirocco, the worlds fastest ECONOMY car.

    15. Member Blaines_Rocco's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 09:46 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by sciroccohal View Post
      Blaine.....disconnect battery.
      Get comfortable in the foot well
      pull relay plate...fusebox
      one by one pull the big plugs from the BACK of the box....check CAREFULLY.
      If you see a burnt pin...fortunately it has a number on it.
      The plugs are lettered A,B etc the the pin has a number on it.....So something like A13
      Look up in Bentley as to what the number goes to. It's on the wiring diagram.
      Look at all the other spade connectors.

      Check the main engine grounds...Especially the one behind and below the battery to the inner fenderwell and to the tranny..it will not run with a bad ground..

      The smoking gun here is when you hit a bump it intermittently goes OFF.

      Funny you should mention the grounds by the battery... since in one of my threads last week I mentioned I am replacing my cables
      I'm a mechanical engineer, not a mechanic. I know why it works, not how.

    16. Member Blaines_Rocco's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 09:47 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by scirocconaut View Post
      Have you replaced the fuel filter?
      Fuel filter was changed in late May
      I'm a mechanical engineer, not a mechanic. I know why it works, not how.

    17. Member 83mk2scirocco's Avatar
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      09-07-2012 10:06 PM #17
      I had a over loaded fuse block(fuel pump relay),and yes when I hit a bump it would stall(8V),.Reach down touch the relay varoom away we go.
      E Rear Wiring Harness Black
      E01 License Plate Lights, Luggage Compartment Light (Cabriolet) License Plate Lights, Fuse 20 Gray/Green
      E02 Rear Wiper Motor Rear Wiper Relay Output Green/Black
      E03 Luggage Compartment Light, Interior Light, Central Locking System, Diagnostic Connector (Cabriolet) Main Fusebox Battery Power, Fuse 3 Red
      E04 Water Separator Sender Glow Plug Light Blue/Green
      E05 Fuel Level Sender Fuel Gauge Violet/Black
      E06 Turn Signal, Left Rear Turn Signal Switch, Left Black/White
      E07 Windshield and Rear Washer Pump (only on cars with rear wiper, ground when washing front, positive when washing rear), Rear washer Pump (Scirocco) Rear Wiper Relay Green/White, Green/Red (Scirocco)
      E08 Rear Wiper Park Switch, Water Separator Sender (diesel) Main Fusebox Run Power, Fuse 12 Yellow/Black, Black/Yellow (diesel)
      E09 Parking Lights, Left Rear Parking Lights, Left, Fuse 7 Gray/Black
      E10 Rear Fog Light (Europe Only) B2 Green/White
      E11 Turn Signal, Right Rear Turn Signal Switch, Right Black/Green
      E12 Back-Up Lights Back-Up Light Switch Black
      E13 Parking Brake Switch Brake Warning Light Gray
      E14 Fuel Pumps, Aux. Air Regulator, Control Pressure Regulator Fuel Pump Relay Pin 3, Fuse 5 Red/Yellow and Red/White
      E15 Rear Window Defogger, Heated Mirrors Rear Window Defogger Switch White or White/Green
      E16 Brake Lights C1 Black/Red
      E17 - (no pin) -
      E18 Parking Lights, Right Rear
      **>The black plug,on the the back of the fuse block,<**
      Note E14 says fuel pumps there are 2 pumps running off of 1 relay,This is why I am running a a bottom feed fuel tank.

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