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    Thread: why don't new cars have a "panic" button?...

    1. Member VwG60Kid's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 01:43 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by Tiero View Post
      What happens to an engine if you have too much air and not enough fuel?
      if its between flying off the road at full throttle and destroyed engine... f' the engine.

    2. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 01:49 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by x_GTI_x View Post
      dont get a car with push button ignition? learn how to drive manual? acquire common sense?

      dont move the goal post here... I stated the car and what happened, a scenario that actually happened to me while driving my car.

      why am I driving some random push-button camry in your example?

      and who is to say my cabriolet is stock?
      This thread is called "why don't new cars have a panic button". It is not called "why don't you need a panic button". I'm actually quite glad it's not a big deal to you, as it shouldn't be. It wasn't to me either when it happened on my '62 Beetle with about 70 hp (this was a 1650 lb car).

      I went for the 1-2 shift and when I did, the engine screamed well past what I was happy with and my reaction was to slam it in second and dump the clutch, as my hands and feet were poised to do so. I still don't think I had enough time to reach up and shut off the ignition switch before the engine grenaded itself. After I shifted into second, I reached up, shut off the switch and coasted into a Hardee's parking lot. The throttle spring had evacuated the entire region. (It was a Baja with an open engine compartment.) I walked into the Hardee's and asked for some rubber bands to fix my Volkswagen. (The girls reaction was priceless. ) I limped home and always carried a spare in the ash tray after that, but never needed one again. (so far)

      What does that have to do with this thread, though? Absolutely nothing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    3. Member x_GTI_x's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 01:58 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      This thread is called "why don't new cars have a panic button". It is not called "why don't you need a panic button". I'm actually quite glad it's not a big deal to you, as it shouldn't be. It wasn't to me either when it happened on my '62 Beetle with about 70 hp (this was a 1650 lb car).

      I went for the 1-2 shift and when I did, the engine screamed well past what I was happy with and my reaction was to slam it in second and dump the clutch, as my hands and feet were poised to do so. I still don't think I had enough time to reach up and shut off the ignition switch before the engine grenaded itself. After I shifted into second, I reached up, shut off the switch and coasted into a Hardee's parking lot. The throttle spring had evacuated the entire region. (It was a Baja with an open engine compartment.) I walked into the Hardee's and asked for some rubber bands to fix my Volkswagen. (The girls reaction was priceless. ) I limped home and always carried a spare in the ash tray after that, but never needed one again. (so far)

      What does that have to do with this thread, though? Absolutely nothing.
      touche.

      I just think the media is too quick to jump on the cars and manufacturers - people just wont own up to really not having a clue what to do in a similar situation.

      not to say if i got stuck going 100 mph id be perfectly calm and just pull over.

      but id like to think id consider every option possible to stop the car, including a pedal stuck under my foot.

      and stop making "cars for dummies" edition vehicles, things are entirely way too automated with vehicles now.

      just think of the next generation of kids that will be learning with all these handicaps and how bad they will be at driving until your basically sitting on a gondola to work everyday.

      I had no ABS, no trac control, 1 airbag and a manual transmission when i started driving. it only takes a couple slip ups to realize the potential of a vehicle first hand.
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      No. Smell has a very strong connection in the brain with feelings... or if you're walking past A&F you might think of that chick you fingerblasted when you were 15.
      Goon Squad x Bagriders x Gengstout

    4. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 02:01 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by x_GTI_x View Post
      touche...
      We're not that far apart on our views on this particular subject, but long ago I realized that things on my list of "things I'd like to see happen" and the general list of "things that will never happen" were nearly the same list!
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    5. 08-28-2012 03:57 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      OK guys. For the umpteenth time, it's not always as simple as some of you think.

      Yes, most runaway cars are the fault of the driver. Yes most that are not are because of either floor mats or some other mechanical issue with the throttle. There are some, though, that are not either of those things. There was a video of a runaway Toyota where the guy had the throttle stick (not his first time) and previously he had simply restarted it and the trouble went away. This time he drove the car to the dealership. He'd put it in gear, the car would accelerate and he'd stick it in neutral, slow down, put it back in gear and repeat 'til he got to the dealership. The video shows the guy there with the service guy admitting he had no idea why it was running on. Once the car was shut off, the car behaved normally upon restart.

      I will always require at least one mechanical device between me and the driven wheels, be it a clutch, mechanical ignition switch or automatic shifter that isn't computer controlled (like almost all cars today).

      The cop in the Lexus that had the runaway rental was a very experienced driver, but the rental had just been picked up, it had push button start and a weird (and computer controlled) shifter. The brakes overheated, the vacuum was gone (meaning he couldn't get assist either), he couldn't shift it into neutral and there was no key to shut off. Yes, he could've pushed the button for 3 seconds to shut it down, but this was his first time driving the car.

      Gimme a mechanical switch, shifter or clutch and I'm fine, though.
      QFT. Bears repeating.

    6. Member x_GTI_x's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 04:08 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      We're not that far apart on our views on this particular subject, but long ago I realized that things on my list of "things I'd like to see happen" and the general list of "things that will never happen" were nearly the same list!
      unfortunately thats very true.

      I didnt think i was old enough to want "the old days" back already.
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      No. Smell has a very strong connection in the brain with feelings... or if you're walking past A&F you might think of that chick you fingerblasted when you were 15.
      Goon Squad x Bagriders x Gengstout

    7. Member McBanagon's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 05:30 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      This thread is called "why don't new cars have a panic button". It is not called "why don't you need a panic button". I'm actually quite glad it's not a big deal to you, as it shouldn't be. It wasn't to me either when it happened on my '62 Beetle with about 70 hp (this was a 1650 lb car).

      I went for the 1-2 shift and when I did, the engine screamed well past what I was happy with and my reaction was to slam it in second and dump the clutch, as my hands and feet were poised to do so. I still don't think I had enough time to reach up and shut off the ignition switch before the engine grenaded itself. After I shifted into second, I reached up, shut off the switch and coasted into a Hardee's parking lot. The throttle spring had evacuated the entire region. (It was a Baja with an open engine compartment.) I walked into the Hardee's and asked for some rubber bands to fix my Volkswagen. (The girls reaction was priceless. ) I limped home and always carried a spare in the ash tray after that, but never needed one again. (so far)

      What does that have to do with this thread, though? Absolutely nothing.
      I once ran into that with my first van.

      Cold, slushy winter. Coldest morning I can remember. Idling in first and second to get off my street. It wasn't until I reached a main road until I ran into trouble. As I got going, I had just shifted to second and opened the throttle more and then it stuck. Being 4am, I was still pretty sleepy. Still puzzled, I shifted to third. When it redlined before I could engage the clutch, I thought, "Oh siht."

      I tried to pull the throttle up with my toe - no luck.
      I started braking a bit - no luck
      Still accelerating, I shifted quickly to 4th - started panicking.
      Came to red light to make a left - stand on brakes and slow it up enough to make the turn.
      Finally came to my senses and realize that I can just shut off the ignition to slow the car down.

      Continued all the way to work by using the ignition key to kill the throttle to shift and control speed. The only problem was is that on older VWs, the lights go out with the ignition.

      About half way to work, things heated up enough to free the cable.


      Even thought I know how how vehicles work, it still took me some time before I realized I Was in trouble. I have now quizzed everyone in my family (again) on how to survive something like this.

    8. 08-28-2012 07:04 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by VwG60Kid View Post
      with all of these stories of unintended acceleration (mostly due to floor mats) wouldn't it make sense to have a button that cut fuel, put it neutral, put on the hazards, and gradually applied the brakes to stop the vehicle?
      i swear... generation of kids these days have no sense of responsibility.

    9. 08-28-2012 07:28 PM #79
      The button makes 100% sense to have, if it worked properly and safely, people were trained on it and it itself never failed.

      Issue is at work I have error messages that pop up when someone does something wrong.

      Pretty much "Are you sure you want to do this..."

      Due to a high level amount of people just clicking "YES" on the screen without reading the error I added an "Are you sure you are sure..." message after they clicked YES on the first message

      How many people clicked through the new error message without reading...100%.
      Goes to show you can do whatever you can to try and help...but people will always find a way to work around or not follow directions or just not have common sense.

      I used to help everyone do anything, then realized I am nothing more than a crutch for a lot of people. Remove me and they are back to their old ways.

      By adding a Panic button you are not changing driver knowledge, behavior or ability...you are just giving them a crutch and requiring them to think less. Two things I don;t want to do for already crappy drivers.

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      08-28-2012 07:51 PM #80
      I personally cannot wait for the day cars drive themselves. Why? Because it will remove the single biggest cause of accidents: the driver. That's what we're headed for, and I am grateful. I cannot wait for the day I can begin my vacation by punching in my destination, reclining my seat, and sleeping until I get there.

    11. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 08:57 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by urbanrocketeer View Post
      I personally cannot wait for the day cars drive themselves. Why? Because it will remove the single biggest cause of accidents: the driver. That's what we're headed for, and I am grateful. I cannot wait for the day I can begin my vacation by punching in my destination, reclining my seat, and sleeping until I get there.
      Why not the transporter from the Enterprise then? Why are you even on a car forum?
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    12. Member MCTB's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 09:07 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      Yeah, it's called putting the car in neutral, turning on the hazards, and easing up on the E-brake or coasting to a stop.

      Any moron with a brain should possess the necessary capabilities to this..but apparently that's asking too much these days
      Or just turn it off?


      People are crazy and people are stupid. There are reasons why cars are becoming more and more technical. Remove as much from the people as possible.

    13. Member .:FrankRizzo:.'s Avatar
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      08-28-2012 09:59 PM #83
      All these people speeding out of control claim they try turning off the car...

      Manual transmission (push the clutch in and you stop accelerating) and a real key (glad I didn't get an autobahn package) fo' life.

    14. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-28-2012 11:25 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      I once ran into that with my first van.

      Cold, slushy winter. Coldest morning I can remember. Idling in first and second to get off my street. It wasn't until I reached a main road until I ran into trouble. As I got going, I had just shifted to second and opened the throttle more and then it stuck. Being 4am, I was still pretty sleepy. Still puzzled, I shifted to third. When it redlined before I could engage the clutch, I thought, "Oh siht."

      I tried to pull the throttle up with my toe - no luck.
      I started braking a bit - no luck
      Still accelerating, I shifted quickly to 4th - started panicking.
      Came to red light to make a left - stand on brakes and slow it up enough to make the turn.
      Finally came to my senses and realize that I can just shut off the ignition to slow the car down.

      Continued all the way to work by using the ignition key to kill the throttle to shift and control speed. The only problem was is that on older VWs, the lights go out with the ignition.

      About half way to work, things heated up enough to free the cable.


      Even thought I know how how vehicles work, it still took me some time before I realized I Was in trouble. I have now quizzed everyone in my family (again) on how to survive something like this.
      No, not on older ones, they didn't start that until '71!

      Oh, I was wide awake when mine happened. Especially during and just after the event!
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      08-29-2012 02:12 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by MCTB View Post
      Or just turn it off?


      People are crazy and people are stupid. There are reasons why cars are becoming more and more technical. Remove as much from the people as possible.
      Turn it off? And lose steering control? I don't think so.
      Quote Originally Posted by DRUB View Post
      What just cause Im new.

    16. Member McBanagon's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 05:15 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      No, not on older ones, they didn't start that until '71!
      It was an '85. For a few minutes, it was flip the key, take a good look at the road ahead, and then turn it off.

      I had two choices. Fast and furious, or blind and curious.

      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      Turn it off? And lose steering control? I don't think so.
      (raises hand) I think I found the problem. People just don't know how cars work anymore.
      Last edited by McBanagon; 08-29-2012 at 05:18 AM.

    17. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 09:22 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      Turn it off? And lose steering control? I don't think so.
      You only lose the power assist which doesn't matter unless you are going parking lot speeds.

    18. Member thetwodubheads's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 10:24 AM #88
      Really. It's not a tractor with fully hydraulic steering. As long as people know there is an ACC position to the key so they don't lock the wheel

    19. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 10:48 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      It was an '85. For a few minutes, it was flip the key, take a good look at the road ahead, and then turn it off.

      I had two choices. Fast and furious, or blind and curious.


      See, that's what I'm sayin'. My car was almost 20 years old when yours was built!

      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      (raises hand) I think I found the problem. People just don't know how cars work anymore.
      Indeed.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    20. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 10:50 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by PlatinumGLS View Post
      You only lose the power assist which doesn't matter unless you are going parking lot speeds.
      I think he thinks that if you turn off the car, the wheel is locked.

      For those that might not know, the lock mechanism isn't engaged until you pull the key out.

      I assume it's solenoid operated if it's a push button start car, correct? That's not creepy at all, is it?
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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      08-29-2012 11:39 AM #91
      I think the real problem is electronic shifters that won't shift into neutral at speed. Seriously, what on Earth is the point of that? It completely eliminates the threat of a stuck pedal. That's just horrible design, and I find it borderline unbelievable.

      Every automatic I've ever driven allows you to bump the shifter up from D into N without engaging the lock. Even column shifters. It seems stupidly obvious to me. Just pop it into N, start braking/coasting, and hit the flashers. Crisis averted.

      Of course, many automatics now cut off accelerator input when the brake is depressed, so...yeah.
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    22. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 11:43 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Woo View Post
      Of course, many automatics now cut off accelerator input when the brake is depressed, so...yeah.
      Yeah, but that's computer controlled, too.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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      08-29-2012 11:47 AM #93
      When people panic, logical thinking goes right out the window

    24. Member McBanagon's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 12:05 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Woo View Post
      I think the real problem is electronic shifters that won't shift into neutral at speed. Seriously, what on Earth is the point of that? It completely eliminates the threat of a stuck pedal. That's just horrible design, and I find it borderline unbelievable.
      WTF is this witchcraft? Neutral is not available while in motion? I understand that 99% of the appliance drivers out there have no idea what "N" means, but that's no reason to make it unavailable.

      Speaking of unavailable, are gear selections even available if the battery is dead in these modern fancy vehicles?

    25. Senior Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-29-2012 12:15 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      Speaking of unavailable, are gear selections even available if the battery is dead in these modern fancy vehicles?
      That's an excellent question. Hopefully there's some lever or some such you can hit, but you'd have to know about it for each and every car. NYAAAAAAAAARRRGH!
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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      08-29-2012 01:16 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      I'm not against the idea.


      The more new methods we invent to turn cars on/off the more this makes sense. Some people are useless when panicking - the simpler the answer, the better.

      However, including all your mentioned in that switch would be further complicating things. just cut fuel, ignition, or simply have it be a main battery cut-off, and shut it all down.
      These are in all of the work vehicles that I'm ever in. It makes sense due to the nature of the vehicle but in all my time I only know of one that has ever been used. I was driving and the guy in the passenger seat thought it would be funny to hit it. I wasn't amused. It's just a switch that cuts the main power to the ECU so it didn't really hurt anything except that it prevented a proper write cycle that normally happens during an ECU power down.
      Lately I have been testing "tip-in events". Just the tip-in. Just to see how it feels. Response time is typically on the order of 2-3 seconds. Sometimes the injection timing is a little off...

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      08-29-2012 01:50 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Woo View Post
      I think the real problem is electronic shifters that won't shift into neutral at speed. Seriously, what on Earth is the point of that? It completely eliminates the threat of a stuck pedal. That's just horrible design, and I find it borderline unbelievable.

      Every automatic I've ever driven allows you to bump the shifter up from D into N without engaging the lock. Even column shifters. It seems stupidly obvious to me. Just pop it into N, start braking/coasting, and hit the flashers. Crisis averted.

      Of course, many automatics now cut off accelerator input when the brake is depressed, so...yeah.
      It sounds easy to write about it here, but a panic manuver needs to be practiced regularly before it becomes instinct in practice.

      When was the last time you dropped your automatic trans car into neutral at highway speeds? Probably never.

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      08-29-2012 02:00 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by Jason4 View Post
      These are in all of the work vehicles that I'm ever in. It makes sense due to the nature of the vehicle but in all my time I only know of one that has ever been used. I was driving and the guy in the passenger seat thought it would be funny to hit it.
      When I was a teenager, my buddies used to do this to each other as a prank. Turn the key off while driving, and start laughing as the driver figures out how to get the car started again while in traffic.*

      Later in life, some motorcycle friends would reach other and hit the kill switch on bikes as soon as the light turned green.

      A$$holes will be a$$holes no matter what kind of kill switch they have available to them.

      -edit-
      *which was great training for unexpected mishaps. Maybe driver's ed teachers should throw drivers certain scenarios during their tome together.

      What kind of situations would you throw at a learning driver to train them for their career behind the wheel?

      1. Turn car off?
      2. Throw car in neutral?
      3. Scream?
      4. ???

      What else?
      Last edited by McBanagon; 08-29-2012 at 02:39 PM.

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      08-29-2012 02:12 PM #99
      That's true and I probably deserved it. I've been known to set e-brakes and slip transmissions into neutral at stop lights before. I expected I would have grown out of it but the last time I did it I think I was 29.
      Lately I have been testing "tip-in events". Just the tip-in. Just to see how it feels. Response time is typically on the order of 2-3 seconds. Sometimes the injection timing is a little off...

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      08-30-2012 02:53 AM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by PlatinumGLS View Post
      You only lose the power assist which doesn't matter unless you are going parking lot speeds.
      In a time like that, I'd much rather have the full steering capabilities my vehicle can offer, even at low speeds steering can be vital. If I really cant shift into neutral and coast then yes obviously I'd turn it off
      Quote Originally Posted by DRUB View Post
      What just cause Im new.

    31. Member dieselraver's Avatar
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      08-30-2012 02:55 AM #101
      completely off topic but i have an E brake, can that be engaged by holding it in for more than a second or two?

    32. Member McBanagon's Avatar
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      08-30-2012 05:19 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by dieselraver View Post
      completely off topic but i have an E brake, can that be engaged by holding it in for more than a second or two?
      ***king electric parking brakes, how to they work?

      ^serious question, since I have not owned (or driven) a car with this feature. Every time I have seen an electric parking brake button, I've shaken my head and thought to myself, "Great, another overly-complicated feature, I'd sure hate to deal with that when it breaks...." How far off-base am I? Is it actually a good idea, or is this something else that would fail if there was an electrical problem?

    33. Member Dr. Woo's Avatar
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      08-30-2012 08:55 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      WTF is this witchcraft? Neutral is not available while in motion? I understand that 99% of the appliance drivers out there have no idea what "N" means, but that's no reason to make it unavailable.
      Air and water mentioned it when talking about the runaway Lexus rental. I just have a hard time believing any auto manufacturer would think it's a good idea.

      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      Speaking of unavailable, are gear selections even available if the battery is dead in these modern fancy vehicles?
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      That's an excellent question. Hopefully there's some lever or some such you can hit, but you'd have to know about it for each and every car. NYAAAAAAAAARRRGH!
      Automobile.com had a fairly eye-opening experience with a Jaguar XF back in 2009 that some here may remember.

      From Automobile.com:
      Since then, the XF has had a few more miscues, the most problematic of which was a dead battery. Now, normally a dead battery isn't that big of a deal-you hook up jumper cables and you're on your way in no time. But with the XF, things never seem to be quite that simple. First of all, virtually everything in the car is electrically--rather than mechanically--controlled, from the glove box door to the trunk release to the transmission gear selector. That means that when the battery is stone dead, there's not enough juice to open the glove box so you can retrieve the owners manual. Or to pop the trunk, which is where the battery is located. Or to put the car into neutral to roll it into position for the battery to be jumped.
      2009 Jaguar Xf Supercharged Interior View

      There are, of course, procedures to deal with such situations. Even though the XF ignition is keyless, there is a key blade that pops out of the key fob in case of an emergency. Near the door handle and rear license plate are hidden panels that can be pried open and then operated with the key so that the door and the trunk can be unlocked. And near the gear selector, about two inches below the shifter, there's a small trim piece that pops off, underneath of which is a mechanism that will cause the rotating gear knob to pop up so that the car can be put into neutral. Unfortunately, those panels are so well camouflaged that, when production editor Jennifer Misaros, who was in possession of the car when it died, looked for a hidden keyhole to open the trunk, she wasn't able to locate it. And neither could the roadside-assistance guy.

      Eventually, roadside assistance was able to work around all the obstacles. Per Misaros: "I popped the hood and the roadside-assistance guy hooked up the portable jumpers to what looked like a fuse box. After twenty minutes of this, the car finally had enough juice to pop the trunk. Then the real fun started. Because the trunk is covered in carpet, there was nothing for him to use as a ground. He finally was able to rig something up so the car was getting some power. He left the jumpers hooked up for 20-30 minutes before I was able to start the car."
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    34. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
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      08-30-2012 09:13 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      In a time like that, I'd much rather have the full steering capabilities my vehicle can offer, even at low speeds steering can be vital. If I really cant shift into neutral and coast then yes obviously I'd turn it off
      I would rather be able to slow down. It is no big deal driving without power steering, especially when you are going above 10 MPH.

    35. Member phil123's Avatar
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      08-30-2012 03:26 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by dieselraver View Post
      completely off topic but i have an E brake, can that be engaged by holding it in for more than a second or two?
      Yes. How long will it last is another question
      2014 Focus ST | 2001 Cabrio VR-T | 1995 GTI VR6
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