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    Thread: GM's solution to slow Regal sales: Raise the price to $29,900

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      09-01-2012 01:09 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Yes, but those 2013s will mostly NOT be the eAssist model, they'll be the regular 2.5 model. The eAssist is still a flop.
      The eAssist is barely getting started -- GM has said that it will be in most of their cars in the next few years.


      Or you can buy one of the many competitors that DON'T charge you $2K extra for good mileage. If the base Malibu got 25/35 and the eAssist was at like 29/39, it would make more sense. But it isn't, and it doesn't. It's a crutch for the fact that the new 2.5 doesn't get the mileage it should.
      The 2.5 is not the most fuel-efficient engine, sure.... but they will be tacking the eAssist tech on to it soon (they've only put the eAssist on the previous 2.4L), and one of the top design goals of the 2.5 was to make it quieter. You'll see this repeated through reviews of the 2.5-equipped Malibu in recent weeks..... everyone is talking about how quiet it is.

      And you know what, this is probably going to be a great selling point to Malibu's traditional customer base. A smooth and quiet ride is of great interest to older folks who want a car to float around town in, and by all accounts they've been pretty successful in delivering that car.

      Fuel economy isn't everything, ya know.

      Yeah, it's a $30K luxury car NOW that they slapped a $30K price tag on it I mean look at the sales numbers for this thing, it's a joke. There's no way they have a business case for making a next-gen model if it's going to return these kinds of numbers.
      I'm learning that I have to tell you everything twice. Okay, that's fine up to a point -- I will repeat myself:

      Dealerships are clearing out stock of the 2012 models.

      The discounts on 2012s have been in the range of $6,000 compared to the price of the 2013! For that kind of money, it doesn't matter how much more fuel-efficient or better-looking the 2013 Malibu is .... of course people are going to snap the old model up! This is not at all a reflection on how good or bad the new model is.... people going into a Chevy dealership to buy a basic car are going to drive off with the old model.

      But this changed in August, since the 2013 Malibu is now showing up on dealer floors. It should help sales of the Eco since the two models can be compared on an equal footing.... and when the Turbo shows up in a few more months, then we'll really see what people want.

      But some people can't or won't pay for those features, regardless of how cool they are. After all, the ~$3-4K premium for a Camry Hybrid will eventually pay off too. But the Hybrid is still less than 20% of sales.
      20% sales of more expensive but more fuel-efficient variants of a car is a number you'll see in other manufacturers' sales books as well. For example, ~20% of Golfs sold are the TDI variant (and another 12-15% are the GTI and R)....

      Remember, this is the United States of America in the 21st century -- short-sightedness is the new gold standard. Most people see no problem with spending less money now, even though it will cost more later on. You know I'm right about this.

    2. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      09-01-2012 01:30 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by warren_s View Post
      20% sales of more expensive but more fuel-efficient variants of a car is a number you'll see in other manufacturers' sales books as well.
      Yes, that's true, and that's why manufacturers other than Buick are smart enough to offer the other 80% of the lineup, so they can actually sell some cars.

      Remember, this is the United States of America in the 21st century -- short-sightedness is the new gold standard. Most people see no problem with spending less money now, even though it will cost more later on. You know I'm right about this.
      Yes, you are right, and that's exactly why a $24,995 Regal with cloth and non-hybrid 4-cyl would outsell the entire rest of the Regal lineup combined. You're making my case here.

      -Andrew L
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    3. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      09-01-2012 01:41 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      We don't sell a lot of Regals compared to the rest of the lineup.
      Since it sounds like you're a Buick dealer, I'd be interested in your opinion on Buick's general direction under New GM. Have you been in the business long enough to remember the "old" Buick (Century, LeSabre, etc.)? If so, how does that compare to the current situation, as a dealer? Not talking about whether you personally like the cars, but how do they sell? What if Buick had gone in less of a sporty/Euro direction, and instead stayed more true to their previous 20 years as comfy, reliable highway cruisers? Of course the crappy interiors and frumpy styling had to go, but if they modernized the styling and equipment without shifting their whole philosophy so much, would you have been able to sell that? I'm honestly curious. Sometimes dealers have a very different take on this stuff than enthusiasts.

      Also, I find that the eAssist Lacrosse is outselling the V6 3-1 on my lot. Not a huge margin, but it does very well for a "failure" as it was stated earlier by someone.
      I can believe that the eAssist makes more sense in the LaCrosse than in the Malibu. They seem to have been fairly successful at moving the LaCrosse up into the Lexus ES, Lincoln MKZ class. At that price level, people are more willing to spring for all the bells and whistles. And the competition in that class doesn't get particularly great mileage with standard powertrains, so the eAssist is more appealing.

      -Andrew L
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      09-01-2012 03:05 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      The Verano is the best deal in the Buick line right now anyways. $190 zero down lease for 24 months.
      Where do I find details on this?

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      09-01-2012 04:26 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by personman View Post
      Where do I find details on this?
      That sounds a bit better than what I've heard, but the "experience buick" offers are around the same. They come with free maintenance, onstar, & xm too.

      http://www.buick.com/tools/currentof...rano&year=2012
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      09-01-2012 04:33 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by personman View Post
      Where do I find details on this?
      Tax credits sir. A limited amount of them, but tax credits. Our ad is alittle lower than the normal "Experience", but that is selling the car under what the current Buick ads are at.
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      09-01-2012 04:40 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Since it sounds like you're a Buick dealer, I'd be interested in your opinion on Buick's general direction under New GM. Have you been in the business long enough to remember the "old" Buick (Century, LeSabre, etc.)? If so, how does that compare to the current situation, as a dealer? Not talking about whether you personally like the cars, but how do they sell? What if Buick had gone in less of a sporty/Euro direction, and instead stayed more true to their previous 20 years as comfy, reliable highway cruisers? Of course the crappy interiors and frumpy styling had to go, but if they modernized the styling and equipment without shifting their whole philosophy so much, would you have been able to sell that? I'm honestly curious. Sometimes dealers have a very different take on this stuff than enthusiasts.


      -Andrew L
      Ok what? Name one Buick product that isn't comfortable cruising down a highway other than (and this would be grasping straws, trim level depending) the Regal. The only difference is that most of the cars in the lineup wouldn't be adverse to going around corners, and when is that a bad thing in regards to more widespread market acceptance?(Which is ironically, your point of contention) And like it or not, the rest of the world?

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      09-01-2012 04:43 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Since it sounds like you're a Buick dealer, I'd be interested in your opinion on Buick's general direction under New GM. Have you been in the business long enough to remember the "old" Buick (Century, LeSabre, etc.)? If so, how does that compare to the current situation, as a dealer? Not talking about whether you personally like the cars, but how do they sell? What if Buick had gone in less of a sporty/Euro direction, and instead stayed more true to their previous 20 years as comfy, reliable highway cruisers? Of course the crappy interiors and frumpy styling had to go, but if they modernized the styling and equipment without shifting their whole philosophy so much, would you have been able to sell that? I'm honestly curious. Sometimes dealers have a very different take on this stuff than enthusiasts.



      I can believe that the eAssist makes more sense in the LaCrosse than in the Malibu. They seem to have been fairly successful at moving the LaCrosse up into the Lexus ES, Lincoln MKZ class. At that price level, people are more willing to spring for all the bells and whistles. And the competition in that class doesn't get particularly great mileage with standard powertrains, so the eAssist is more appealing.

      -Andrew L
      I go back to 2005. So, I started selling Buick at the end of the LeSabre era, the start of the W-body LaCrosse era, the last few Century cars, the Park Ave, and the beginning of the Lucerne era.

      It was a weird time for us because we were a Pontiac dealer that got a dealer's ticket that went under. So, we went from selling VW's and Pontiacs, which were close to the same demographic, to old people. Buick was truly an old person brand, which was a shame because I liked how they drove. Land yachts anyone?

      The new crowd is younger by close to 20 years on the average if I had to eye up the ages. I personally am selling more late 20 early 30 somethings Regals and Veranos. 40-50 is the average if I had to guess.

      The stereo-typical Buick buyer is no longer so typical. They don't even come into our new car sales floor anymore. If the shifter isn't up by the steering wheel they are almost lost. The amount of techno-gizmo-doo-hickeys on the current line has the ones who do settle on a more modern car coming back almost daily for classes on how to turn a light off on the dash. (Cruise Control)

      When I call a lot of Buick shoppers that fit into the demo graphic most people would associate with Buick, they end up buying a Toyota or a Lexus because of the simplicity of them. They reminded them of their old Buick, which I find funny.

      Not too sound too harsh, but the old Buick buyer is now the new Toyota/Lexus buyer. For me that is great because they are a fading customer.


      Quick add on to what I said...

      I also have cross shoppers now between VW and Buick. That didn't happen 2 years ago.

      I have people shop the Golf R then go and drive the GS. (Then not buy either, must have been a TCL'er. )
      Last edited by ChiTownA34DR; 09-01-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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      09-01-2012 05:41 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      When I call a lot of Buick shoppers that fit into the demo graphic most people would associate with Buick, they end up buying a Toyota or a Lexus because of the simplicity of them. They reminded them of their old Buick, which I find funny.
      Thanks for this...I'm always interested to hear these kinds of "on the ground" reports after all the speculation and theorizing on TCL and other auto sites.

      The Buick/Toyota thing is funny to me because I feel the same way...except I'm 29! I've always driven old GM cars. But if I had to buy a new car right now, I hate to say it, but the first thing I would look at is a Camry LE. It seems closest to what I like: comfortable interior, simple layout, classic looks with no "fake sports car" stuff. I really like the Chrysler 200, but I don't quite trust Chrysler reliability.

      GM isn't really offering anything like this in their new lineup. The new Malibu takes its styling inspiration from muscle cars rather than luxury cars. It's like Chevy is GM's Dodge, rather than GM's Chrysler. I was hoping Buick would be GM's Chrysler, but it's too expensive and too focused on firmness and handling over comfort. The Verano might be a little bit of an exception...it's fairly affordable for what you get, and given that it's based on a Chinese model, I imagine it doesn't have the Euro-firm ride (though I doubt anything with standard 18" wheels can really have the traditional Buick ride.)

      Do you think anybody's going to buy the new Encore? I don't know what to think about that one...it's like a tiny RX350, presumably for a lot less money. I'm not sure if that's genius or stupidity.

      -Andrew L
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      09-01-2012 05:47 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Thanks for this...I'm always interested to hear these kinds of "on the ground" reports after all the speculation and theorizing on TCL and other auto sites.

      The Buick/Toyota thing is funny to me because I feel the same way...except I'm 29! I've always driven old GM cars. But if I had to buy a new car right now, I hate to say it, but the first thing I would look at is a Camry LE. It seems closest to what I like: comfortable interior, simple layout, classic looks with no "fake sports car" stuff. I really like the Chrysler 200, but I don't quite trust Chrysler reliability.

      GM isn't really offering anything like this in their new lineup. The new Malibu takes its styling inspiration from muscle cars rather than luxury cars. It's like Chevy is GM's Dodge, rather than GM's Chrysler. I was hoping Buick would be GM's Chrysler, but it's too expensive and too focused on firmness and handling over comfort. The Verano might be a little bit of an exception...it's fairly affordable for what you get, and given that it's based on a Chinese model, I imagine it doesn't have the Euro-firm ride (though I doubt anything with standard 18" wheels can really have the traditional Buick ride.)

      Do you think anybody's going to buy the new Encore? I don't know what to think about that one...it's like a tiny RX300, presumably for a lot less money. I'm not sure if that's genius or stupidity.

      -Andrew L
      I'll be 30 this year. I also favor big sedans. I have owned two B-bodies; 96' Impala SS and a 96' Roadmaster Sedan.

      Verano is more traditional Buick ride, but for a younger generation. Rides well, it is quiet, but doesn't have a lost type of feel that older Buicks had turning and moving around town. (Buick float aka Dynaride ) I have had two as demos and they are great cars for the dollar amount.

      I think the Encore will do well as long as it is priced correctly. That is all I can say about it for now until I get some seat time.
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      09-01-2012 06:27 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      The Verano might be a little bit of an exception...it's fairly affordable for what you get, and given that it's based on a Chinese model, I imagine it doesn't have the Euro-firm ride (though I doubt anything with standard 18" wheels can really have the traditional Buick ride.)
      "Based on a Chinese model"? You either really are an idiot here, or you're being a troll.

      Let's get you set straight for the third damned time in this thread.

      The Verano is one of the many models that's come out of the Astra J line of cars, which is built on the Delta II platform, which was designed by Opel, in Germany. GM's divisions around the world have gone on to build locally-relevant cars based on the Opel Astra for their regions, with GM in China coming up with the Excelle GT, Vauxhall with the Astra Limousine, Daewoo with the Lacetti for the South Korea market (where the Daewoo name still has strong presence), and GM in America turning out the Buick Verano and Chevy Cruze.

      Nowadays it's very common for different divisions across GM to work together on a global scale. That certainly has happened with the Verano, but it doesn't mean that Opel or Shanghai GM got the final say for what the ride settings or design details will be like.

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      09-01-2012 08:08 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by warren_s View Post
      "Based on a Chinese model"? You either really are an idiot here, or you're being a troll.

      Let's get you set straight for the third damned time in this thread...
      Oh, come on. Everybody knows the Verano was primarily designed for the Chinese market. I believe GM has said so itself, on the record.

      Every time you've tried to "set me straight", I pointed out that you were in fact wrong, so then you moved on to some other nitpicking point. Get a life.

      -Andrew L
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      09-01-2012 09:04 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Oh, come on. Everybody knows the Verano was primarily designed for the Chinese market. I believe GM has said so itself, on the record.


      They... aren't.... selling.... the.... Verano.... in..... China.

      How can you not understand this? The platform is global, and they're building a bunch of different cars tuned for each m..... ahhhhhh f-ck it, how about instead of me doing the talking and you doing all the disbelieving, I'll get the media to do it for me:

      USA Today: "It's a glimpse of GM's plan for two key brands on three continents. In assembly plants from metro Detroit to China and Europe, thousands of jobs hinge on the car's success. With substantial tweaks for each region, the car is the Buick Verano in North America, Buick Excelle in China and Opel Astra in Europe."

      Insideline: "The 2012 Verano, an upscale companion to the Chevrolet Cruze, will go into production late next year at GM's Orion Township plant north of Detroit. A version of the Verano went into production earlier this year in China, where it is sold as the Buick Excelle GT. Both the Verano and the Excelle GT are based on the GM Delta II global compact platform that underpins the Cruze and the Opel Astra."


      Or how about a GM press release from 2010: Shanghai GM Announces Pricing for All-New Buick Excelle GT: "The Excelle GT is built on GM’s newest global architecture. Its specially tuned, high-performance European chassis provides premium comfort."


      Ayup, right there in the press release, they describe the Excelle GT as "European". Not Chinese, not American, not Australian. European.

      How does this mesh with your belief that the Verano is "based on a Chinese model", exactly?

    14. 09-01-2012 09:17 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Oh, come on. Everybody knows the Verano was primarily designed for the Chinese market. I believe GM has said so itself, on the record.

      Every time you've tried to "set me straight", I pointed out that you were in fact wrong, so then you moved on to some other nitpicking point. Get a life.

      -Andrew L
      every time you have 'pointed out the fact that someone was in fact wrong' you did NOTHING but throw out your opinion.

      you have provided just about ZERO 'facts' in this thread.

      your blind hatred towards them after the bailout has yet to be called out by anyone here.

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      09-01-2012 09:48 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by warren_s View Post

      They... aren't.... selling.... the.... Verano.... in..... China.

      How does this mesh with your belief that the Verano is "based on a Chinese model", exactly?
      The Excelle GT IS the Verano by another name. Again, you're grasping at straws here. Regardless, the reason I mentioned the fact that the Verano was aimed primarily at China was to praise it, not to criticize it. I said that being based on a Chinese model meant it was more likely to have traditional Buick characteristics, since that actually seems to sell in China.

      Look, I don't mind disagreement, but stop picking up on irrelevant points taken completely out of the context of my arguments. For those reading this who think I'm being harsh on this guy, he pulled the same schtick in another thread I started the other day. If you want to disagree with my argument, then lay out your case relative to my central points, don't nibble around the edges with inane diversions and act like you're winning.

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    16. 09-01-2012 09:52 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      The Excelle GT IS the Verano by another name. Again, you're grasping at straws here. Regardless, the reason I mentioned the fact that the Verano was aimed primarily at China was to praise it, not to criticize it. I said that being based on a Chinese model meant it was more likely to have traditional Buick characteristics, since that actually seems to sell in China.

      Look, I don't mind disagreement, but stop picking up on irrelevant points taken completely out of the context of my arguments. For those reading this who think I'm being harsh on this guy, he pulled the same schtick in another thread I started the other day. If you want to disagree with my argument, then lay out your case relative to my central points, don't nibble around the edges with inane diversions and act like you're winning.

      -Andrew L
      I've stopped arguing with you because you don't prove ANYTHING

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      09-01-2012 09:57 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      you have provided just about ZERO 'facts' in this thread.
      My entire argument is based on the Regal's sales figures, days-to-turn figures, pricing, and those same numbers for other midsize sedans, and for previous Buick sedans. That's nothing BUT facts.

      As near as I can tell, the opposing argument is, "The Regal is cool and Euro, the GS gets good reviews, and sales figures don't matter." I don't see a lot of irrefutable facts there.

      your blind hatred towards them after the bailout has yet to be called out by anyone here.
      Listen, I love GM cars. They're all I've ever owned. And if you're trying to paint me as a crazy Republican freaking out about the bailout, you're wrong. I'm a registered Democrat, I voted for Obama and I think the bailout was the right thing to do. But as much as I like GM cars, I've always found the company's decisions, and its tendency to careen from one half-baked plan to another, to be hard to understand. I felt that way before the bailout, I hoped the bailout would change things, and it hasn't. Are the products better? Yes. But I'm not saying the Regal is a bad vehicle. I'm saying that the product strategy makes no sense. As much as I've also criticized Ford's strategy, at least they have one, and it's very clear what it is. "He who has a plan, wins." I don't see a plan for Buick's long-term success in America that makes sense to me.

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      09-01-2012 10:01 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      I've stopped arguing with you because you don't prove ANYTHING
      What facts have you presented? All I see is a post that boils down to, "Trust GM, they know what they're doing." Given the history there, no, I don't trust that they know what they're doing. And besides, this is a discussion site. Are we now supposed to just post verbatim press releases from the automakers and assume that everything they contain is true?

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    19. 09-01-2012 10:01 PM #54
      Pretty common. The 928 never sold and they more than tripled the price over its run. Ditto the NSX, which went up 50%. Both cars were basically the same over their 15-18 yrs.

      Contrast the RX8, where sales went into the toilet after the first few years yet the price never went up.
      Quote Originally Posted by Aseras View Post
      I got the (RX8) engine replaced at 112K miles not because it failed but because I hit a pig on the interstate.

    20. 09-03-2012 12:41 AM #55
      This.

      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      A $2K price hike? What's the big deal? The LaCrosse uses the eAssist package as it's base engine and it's sales have been unaffected. The Regal will be moving up in price to allow room for the Verano, which is a good idea, IMO. The Regal is no longer Buick's entry level sedan.

      In the next go around, Buick needs to find a better spread between its 3 sedans or eliminate the Regal in the middle. This will clear up some of the price point clutter. It would probably help if the LaCrosse became slightly more expensive, bigger and RWD, or if the Regal became a sport-oriented RWD sedan.
      And this.

      Quote Originally Posted by rynodyno312 View Post
      That's a pretty misleading thread title. They didn't just raise the price, they also added the $2000 e-assist option as standard equipment. So yes, the price did go up, but so did the feature content and mpg.
      And this.

      Quote Originally Posted by Señor Peligro View Post
      I just want to make sure I've got this straight....it's still essentially in the TSX price class, right?
      The next gen LaCrosse is going upmarket (think closer to the XTS), but the current Buick sedan lineup does have the same overlap problem that Acura has (which isn't surprising since the Regal is basically the equivalent to the Euro Accord/TSX in size and the Verano with the ILX).

      I agree that GM should really try to differentiate the Regal by really trying to make it the sporty sedan in the Buick lineup, but likely won't ever be a huge seller.
      Last edited by CP1; 09-03-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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      09-03-2012 02:48 AM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      The Excelle GT IS the Verano by another name. Again, you're grasping at straws here. Regardless, the reason I mentioned the fact that the Verano was aimed primarily at China was to praise it, not to criticize it. I said that being based on a Chinese model meant it was more likely to have traditional Buick characteristics, since that actually seems to sell in China.
      The VERANO is NOT aimed at China. It is NOT SOLD THERE. The EXCELLE is. They are DIFFERENT CARS on the SAME PLATFORM.

      How can you not understand this?

      The Verano and Excelle are similar, but they aren't just badge jobs. They have different parts underneath, different engines, different center console stack designs, different suspension tunings, and are built in different factories on different continents.

      Also, these cars were designed at the same time, but the Excelle was ready first, so it went on sale first. That doesn't mean the American-targeted Verano is "based on a Chinese model". Getting production of a new car online is a ridiculously complex process involving a ton of different suppliers, and TBH it wouldn't surprise me if this was just easier to do in China due to their manufacturing quickness compared to America.

    22. Member MK5golf's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 08:47 AM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by Señor Peligro View Post
      I just want to make sure I've got this straight....it's still essentially in the TSX price class, right?
      yes... when I think Regal I instinctively ask myself ... "would i rather a TSX?" Personally I think so because...
      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      ...They need to offer the Regal in a lower trim level with cloth interior for the sales to go up. I have customers who love the car but will not buy leather...

      .
      I most defenitely agree with you here! Regal needs to kinda be more of a passat/tsx competitor. Be able to hit that "sweet spot" if you know what I mean. If it came with a base model (which is not to say cheap, but no leather and stick, etc.) sales, imo, would defenitely go up. This should be the "european" car people want...could the badge be the problem? Buick salesman is claiming otherwise. All I can say is, subjectively, there seem to be less Buick's around now than before. For some weird reason, I like both the grandma buicks and the new euro ones.
      Z is pronounced ZED

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      09-03-2012 09:46 AM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by MK5golf View Post
      yes... when I think Regal I instinctively ask myself ... "would i rather a TSX?" Personally I think so because...


      I most defenitely agree with you here! Regal needs to kinda be more of a passat/tsx competitor. Be able to hit that "sweet spot" if you know what I mean. If it came with a base model (which is not to say cheap, but no leather and stick, etc.) sales, imo, would defenitely go up. This should be the "european" car people want...could the badge be the problem? Buick salesman is claiming otherwise. All I can say is, subjectively, there seem to be less Buick's around now than before. For some weird reason, I like both the grandma buicks and the new euro ones.
      IMO the regal is a tsx competitor. i certainly cross-shopped the two - but ultimately since acura decided not to offer the best engine (V6) in the "enthuisast" model - i.e. with a 6MT - i decided to go elsewhere. that, plus the lack of manual 4-cyl tsx's anywhere (my local dealer did a 4 state search with zero hits) turned me off. and then of course there is the polarizing styling...

      i also really doubt that manual buicks with a cloth interior are going to fly off the lot!
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      09-03-2012 10:37 AM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by warren_s View Post
      The VERANO is NOT aimed at China. It is NOT SOLD THERE. The EXCELLE is. They are DIFFERENT CARS on the SAME PLATFORM.
      Chinese market:



      USDM:



      Let's see. One has a marker light in the fender, and the wheels are different. Are you seriously suggesting that these two cars were engineered independently for two different markets?

      Luxury compact sedans are a popular market in China (as opposed to hatchbacks, which are popular in Europe). The Excelle has potential to sell a lot more units in China than it probably will in the US, just because it's in a popular segment there. Common sense dictates that the car was primarily designed for China, and was tweaked for the USDM, where volumes will likely be lower.

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      09-03-2012 10:55 AM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by warren_s View Post
      The VERANO is NOT aimed at China. It is NOT SOLD THERE. The EXCELLE is. They are DIFFERENT CARS on the SAME PLATFORM.

      How can you not understand this?

      The Verano and Excelle are similar, but they aren't just badge jobs. They have different parts underneath, different engines, different center console stack designs, different suspension tunings, and are built in different factories on different continents.

      Also, these cars were designed at the same time, but the Excelle was ready first, so it went on sale first. That doesn't mean the American-targeted Verano is "based on a Chinese model". Getting production of a new car online is a ridiculously complex process involving a ton of different suppliers, and TBH it wouldn't surprise me if this was just easier to do in China due to their manufacturing quickness compared to America.
      Sat with an engineer at the Verano launch. There was a massive list of differences between the two cars. The suspension was a majority of the differences.

      I will go as far to say the interior was the same, except the sound deadening materials used in the U.S. version, the body panels for the most part are the same, and that is it.
      Last edited by ChiTownA34DR; 09-03-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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    26. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 11:48 AM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      The suspension was a majority of the differences.
      See, warren_s, here's an example of how to intelligently and respectfully correct someone. I speculated that the Verano might have a softer ride because it's based on a Chinese model. ChiTownA34DR points out that he's talked to someone from GM who said the suspension was substantially retuned for the USDM. To which I say, that's interesting, thanks for the information.

      You'll note that ChiTownA34DR didn't use this minor point to imply that everything I've ever said is wrong and I know nothing about the auto industry. I don't get the impression that you're a dumb person, warren_s, but I don't know what I did to warrant such a confrontational attitude. Maybe if you could calm down a little, we could have some interesting discussions.

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    27. 09-03-2012 12:12 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      See, warren_s, here's an example of how to intelligently and respectfully correct someone. I speculated that the Verano might have a softer ride because it's based on a Chinese model. ChiTownA34DR points out that he's talked to someone from GM who said the suspension was substantially retuned for the USDM. To which I say, that's interesting, thanks for the information.

      You'll note that ChiTownA34DR didn't use this minor point to imply that everything I've ever said is wrong and I know nothing about the auto industry. I don't get the impression that you're a dumb person, warren_s, but I don't know what I did to warrant such a confrontational attitude. Maybe if you could calm down a little, we could have some interesting discussions.

      -Andrew L
      You keep posting it like the Verano was the one adjusted to the US and came from the Chinese model.

      It didnt.

      The Verano was adjusted from the Cruze. The Chinese version was then modified from the US version.

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      09-03-2012 12:18 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      You keep posting it like the Verano was the one adjusted to the US and came from the Chinese model.

      It didnt.

      The Verano was adjusted from the Cruze. The Chinese version was then modified from the US version.
      I understand what you are saying, but...

      Not really. The Cruze shares even less with the Verano than the Chinese market Excelle. No body panels. No interior pieces. None of the suspension. Engines. It is like 10% or something super low.


      Best and simplest explanation for it goes like this...


      The chasis was developed. Buick splits from other makes. The interior was developed. The body panels were made. After that, every market was able to make it their own.
      Last edited by ChiTownA34DR; 09-03-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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    29. 09-03-2012 12:22 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      I understand what you are saying, but...

      Not really. The Cruze shares even less with the Verano than the Chinese market Excelle. No body panels. No interior pieces. None of the suspension. Engines. It is like 10% or something super low.


      Best and simplest explanation for it goes like this...


      The chasis was developed. Buick splits from other makes. The interior was developed. The body panels were made. After that, every market was able to make it their own.
      Yea, I should have stated it differently.

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      09-03-2012 03:19 PM #65
      At this point I think we're splitting hairs here. I had said what I said because I was under the impression that Buick product development has adopted a "China First" policy in the last few years. Which would make sense, since they're a major volume brand in China. If anybody has a source saying that the Verano/Excelle was developed primarily for the US market, I'd be interested to see it, mostly because that would change my interpretation of what's going on at Buick.

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      09-03-2012 06:51 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by Minority5 View Post
      Ok what? Name one Buick product that isn't comfortable cruising down a highway other than (and this would be grasping straws, trim level depending) the Regal. The only difference is that most of the cars in the lineup wouldn't be adverse to going around corners, and when is that a bad thing in regards to more widespread market acceptance?(Which is ironically, your point of contention) And like it or not, the rest of the world?
      ^^rimtrim, would you care to respond to this?

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      09-03-2012 07:08 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      At this point I think we're splitting hairs here. I had said what I said because I was under the impression that Buick product development has adopted a "China First" policy in the last few years. Which would make sense, since they're a major volume brand in China. If anybody has a source saying that the Verano/Excelle was developed primarily for the US market, I'd be interested to see it, mostly because that would change my interpretation of what's going on at Buick.

      -Andrew L
      I'd agree you're splitting hairs, particularly with regards to which market a vehicle was primarily developed for. GM is a global company, and economies of scale lead to one basic architecture such as Delta II being developed for all markets to then tailor to necessary local modification. It doesn't matter if the Excelle launched before the Verano or Astra, as it was designed to be all those cars eventually from the beginning.

      The way you describe it, you make it sound like, a la GTO and G8, that the car was engineered for one market and then modified to be able to be sold here. That's not the case. This is more like the Mazda3, Focus, and Volvo S40/V50 being co-engineered and then launched in varying markets on varying timeframes. In this case, economies of scale and market needs have simply coincided in that there didn't need to be body panel differentiation.

    33. Member GTRaavv's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 08:15 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      At this point I think we're splitting hairs here. I had said what I said because I was under the impression that Buick product development has adopted a "China First" policy in the last few years. Which would make sense, since they're a major volume brand in China. If anybody has a source saying that the Verano/Excelle was developed primarily for the US market, I'd be interested to see it, mostly because that would change my interpretation of what's going on at Buick.

      -Andrew L
      I don't know what market it was designed for, but it has certainly appealed to Americans so far, unlike the Regal, which was designed for the Chinese market and never originally intended for the US as a Buick. The Regal really is the odd man out over here.

    34. 09-03-2012 09:22 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      The suspension was a majority of the differences.

      I will go as far to say the interior was the same, except the sound deadening materials used in the U.S. version, the body panels for the most part are the same, and that is it.
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      See, warren_s, here's an example of how to intelligently and respectfully correct someone. I speculated that the Verano might have a softer ride because it's based on a Chinese model. ChiTownA34DR points out that he's talked to someone from GM who said the suspension was substantially retuned for the USDM. To which I say, that's interesting, thanks for the information.
      Pretty much every automaker has separate tuning and other changes for the various auto markets, doesn't make them different models.
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    35. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      09-03-2012 09:46 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by Minority5 View Post
      ^^rimtrim, would you care to respond to this?
      I imagine the LaCrosse is a nice highway cruiser (I haven't driven it), it's just gotten into a pretty high price bracket. And it seems to be doing OK there, but I'd like to see more affordable Buicks that also have more traditional Buick-ness.

      Just to do a reality check here, when the '05 LaCrosse came out, it started around $23K! The new one is nearly $10K more than that. I know car prices have gone up in recent years, but not that much. Of course, the new one has a lot more features, more modern engineering, etc., but the bottom line is, there are a lot of people who can pay $23K for a car and can't pay $33K. Buick's offering in the mid-20s is now the Verano, which seems to be a nice little car, but it's no LaCrosse.

      I guess my main thesis here is, I believe there's a sizeable market for an affordable midsize/family sedan in "fake luxury car" rather than "fake muscle car" guise. Buick would seem to be the natural place for that, since Chevy has been emphasizing Camaro-type styling lately.

      -Andrew L
      Last edited by rimtrim; 09-03-2012 at 11:09 PM.
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