UM Turbo Software users

[huichox4]

What I am curious about is, if with a turbo, if running a single 02 sensor works great, why the heck did VW divide the engine in half and manage the fueling like two separate motors? Is this typical in the auto industry?

Or, is there some quirk about the VR6 that made VW feel like it was necessary to run two pairs of 02 sensors, one pair for 3 cylinders and another for the other 3? If VW went out of there way to do this, why is it just peachy to run just one with a turbo? What is different that makes a single pair acceptable or better?

With my HPA FT400, my bank B1 S1 sensor is constantly going off line...... especially after a long run on the highway when things are good and hot. I've changed 02 sensors, tried three of them and still get the same results. Do I really need these two sensors or should I pull them out and plug the ports and have a bung welded in the downpipe somewhere and run just one? What would happen?

Does UM have a tune for turbo applications that use both sensors in the exhaust manifold like HPA?

the 2 banks are to keep balance between the 3 left cylinders from the right ones, one bank has 2 fwd cylinders and one rear and in the other bank you get 2 rear and 1 front which run considerably hotter due to the exhaust manifold being there etc. so that is the treason why vw splits the banks

on the turbo tune the back 3 cylinders are ran a bit richer to keep them colder compared to the front ones I read here in the forums.

[newcreation]

All my o2's are in the downpipe so no killing sensors but i am only running one pre-cat sensor as thats how the tune is and used the second bung for my wideband. Daily driven no issues or codes nothing like that

[Rmeitz167]

wondering the same thing. Ive got the C2 550 as well and am wondering what would be the advantages would be if say i did not care about launch control because its not a track car and is a driver. What other goods are there? well besides i guess more power?

i have a lean situation under startup/idle that eventually clears once lambda kicks in Hiccups and little annoyances about this tune vs on my r32t that i just crashed a month ago that had the um software. i have a video of said lean issue etc. I was in contact with jeff through texts from the minute i knew ide be buying this r32 and it had c2 software. I wanted to bring my um ecu and change it in the dudes driveway, he kinda persuaded me to drive it on the way home and report on what i found. Honestly... a few hiccups in the tune to me isnt a big deal but in the 700+ miles of highway and city it is just starting to piss me off and i cannot wait to put my united motorsport ecu in.

[Jefnes3]

Does UM have a tune for turbo applications that use both sensors in the exhaust manifold like HPA?

Sure we do.

Dual bank is native R32.

Changing software will not fix the hardware conditions that cause your o2 sensor failures.


-Jeffrey Atwood

[Rmeitz167]

^truth. Both cars ran 2 in the manifold. On a eip mani and now a pAgparts

[Arizman3]

Sure we do.

Dual bank is native R32.

Changing software will not fix the hardware conditions that cause your o2 sensor failures.


-Jeffrey Atwood

Well, I figured my B1 S1 sensor might be getting cooked because of tuning problems.

I have replaced the MAF with a new one.
Replaced the factory fuel pump.
Replaced spark plugs
Checked for charge pipe leaks, none found
Replaced both 02 sensors, replaced the B1 S1 three times
Checked the heating circuit voltage to the B1 S1 sensor and it is within spec, OHM test of sensor is withing spec.
Wanted to check the circuit from the 02 to the ECU but don't have the pin-outs for the ECU

The issue is the B1 S1 02 works sometimes and sometimes it just goes off line........ logging 001 shows lambda just goes to 0 and I get a fault code for the B1 S1 sensor.

Light throttle, engine bucks, surges and in general runs like crap when this happens. I figured it might be tune

I'm at a loss

[DarkSideGTI]

Hardware problems like having the sensor 1" after the exhaust port?

[Emmitt]

Look most turbo users are having this same problem, why isn't anyone posting the one true solution? What is supposed to be done to get this issue resolved. I am running two o2 stock pre-cat sensors in the exhaust manifold. My car is running is running like dog **** It shutters under lots of load. I used to have two open loop sensors in there and my car ran better but was dumping a **** ton of fuel. My manifold is a SPA with one open chamber where the two o2 Sensors are. I saw HPA has a dual chamber manifold for the two sensors. But If we run that then what are we supposed to do with software. Why the **** are company's selling manifolds single and dual chamber. Why are company's selling this crap if there isn't an answer everybody knows. It should not be on the market to sell if there is no answer to make this run properly. This forum should not even exist with this problem it is not up to the consumer to buy something and then be left with trial and error work to get there car running right with a product someone puts out. Am I wrong?

[Rmeitz167]

Beyond confused. I have ran 2 sensors in an eip ram horn and now a pag mani and have had 0 problems. 2 different cars.

[Arizman3]

Look most turbo users are having this same problem, why isn't anyone posting the one true solution? What is supposed to be done to get this issue resolved. I am running two o2 stock pre-cat sensors in the exhaust manifold. My car is running is running like dog **** It shutters under lots of load. I used to have two open loop sensors in there and my car ran better but was dumping a **** ton of fuel. My manifold is a SPA with one open chamber where the two o2 Sensors are. I saw HPA has a dual chamber manifold for the two sensors. But If we run that then what are we supposed to do with software. Why the **** are company's selling manifolds single and dual chamber. Why are company's selling this crap if there isn't an answer everybody knows. It should not be on the market to sell if there is no answer to make this run properly. This forum should not even exist with this problem it is not up to the consumer to buy something and then be left with trial and error work to get there car running right with a product someone puts out. Am I wrong?

Don't know the answer to this. My car is at HPA right now to find out why, after the turbo install, the B1 sensor periodically just stops working. I asked Marcel about the issue of having the two 02 sensors in the exhaust manifold and he says there is no issue, after 10 years of building kits with this configuration it's proven and is the only way to reliably monitor and regulate the fueling between the hot and cold side (I have to assume this makes sense because I have not seen folks complaining about it or heard of 02 related issues with the HGP kits in Europe that run this config). Marcel says my car is the first he's run across with the symptoms I am having. At this point I have to take his word for it as there doesn't appear to be another option other than re-engineer my FT400 kit myself using different parts and I hate to do that.

[ThatVdub]

jason from streetwerke used to poke fun of the o2 location, saying they are to close to the line
of fire on the ex mani, and i am pretty sure youre not the only one with o2 issues.

is it the tune?
is it a bad injector???
is it bad o2 sensor location? then why only one bank?
maybe something is happening in that bank that you should look deeper into.
bad wiring or contact lost? where? trace all the way to the ECM.

[Arizman3]

jason from streetwerke used to poke fun of the o2 location, saying they are to close to the line
of fire on the ex mani, and i am pretty sure youre not the only one with o2 issues.

is it the tune?
is it a bad injector???
is it bad o2 sensor location? then why only one bank?
maybe something is happening in that bank that you should look deeper into.
bad wiring or contact lost? where? trace all the way to the ECM.

Good recommendations. I'd like to trace the wiring from the 02 sensor to the ECM but I have not been able to find the pin-outs for the connectors that plug into the ECM so I could do a continuity test between the o2 plug pins and the ECM plug.

[ThatVdub]

Good recommendations. I'd like to trace the wiring from the 02 sensor to the ECM but I have not been able to find the pin-outs for the connectors that plug into the ECM so I could do a continuity test between the o2 plug pins and the ECM plug.

From my experience with VAG wiring.

Wires (metal and sheath) go bad VERY easily. Mainly why I got rid of all my MK4's recently.
Female pins tend to widen, and may need to be tightened or replaced.

Continuity is great to find the line, but when you find it, mess with it all its length (bend, tug, pull, etc), to see if there is a bad contact, break or short.

[R32EEEK]

jason from streetwerke used to poke fun of the o2 location, saying they are to close to the line
of fire on the ex mani, and i am pretty sure youre not the only one with o2 issues.

is it the tune?
is it a bad injector???
is it bad o2 sensor location? then why only one bank?
maybe something is happening in that bank that you should look deeper into.
bad wiring or contact lost? where? trace all the way to the ECM.

Jason's design is very similar to the HPA manifold. Two O2 sensors on the exhaust manifold. There were some issues with the O2's being too close to each other and 'fighting' since it's not a divided mani.

I am interested in this though, as I'm looking to move to a single-bank tune with post turbo O2's myself....

[Arizman3]

I was just reading a PDF from Bosch about their wide band 02 sensors. The article states that the operating environment, for exhaust gasses, the maximum permissible temperature is 1030C or 1886 F . I wonder what sort of exhaust gas temps at the exhaust ports are averaging in a tubo application. Anyone have any idea?

[ThatVdub]

wiring diag, let me know if this helps...

[ThatVdub]

I was just reading a PDF from Bosch about their wide band 02 sensors. The article states that the operating environment, for exhaust gasses, the maximum permissible temperature is 1030C or 1886 F . I wonder what sort of exhaust gas temps at the exhaust ports are averaging in a tubo application. Anyone have any idea?

I remember zagi tell me at idle, his FT400 would climb to 1600 and worry him as it would approach 1800 on his EGT gauge, IIRC...

[fish10782]

I know in diesel application 1,625 deg F is when **** starts melting. I know two different critters, BUT metals are the same. if your getting that hot then something needs to change.. hitting those temps momentarily is OK, but maintaining them is when siht goes south real fast. you can cryogenic freeze certain components and that helps to keep it from melting.

[ThatVdub]

I know in diesel application 1,625 deg F is when **** starts melting.

Yeah, the TDI world is a whole different ball game, much lower temps than the FI gassers.

He told me his turbo would sometimes get bright orange, so you can imagine the heat that was generated.

[zevion]

He told me his turbo would sometimes get bright orange, so you can imagine the heat that was generated.

Yeah, when I get on it for a while then pop the hood in the dark, the mani is glowing.

[TBT-Syncro]

I was just reading a PDF from Bosch about their wide band 02 sensors. The article states that the operating environment, for exhaust gasses, the maximum permissible temperature is 1030C or 1886 F . I wonder what sort of exhaust gas temps at the exhaust ports are averaging in a tubo application. Anyone have any idea?

800-1000 once warmed up. climbing to 1300-1400ish under long WOT pulls.

[Arizman3]

800-1000 once warmed up. climbing to 1300-1400ish under long WOT pulls.

Interesting, thanks for this information.

Curious as to where your temperature probe is placed. I've read that post turbo, temps typically drop approximately 200 F.

If it's in the exhaust manifold, if your temps are typical, this means that, in general, barring some issue that causes temps to increase significantly higher than what you are experiencing, our wideband o2 sensors, placed in the exhaust manifold are not subjected to temperatures that are outside the design envelope which Bosh says it a little over 1,800 F

[TBT-Syncro]

Curious as to where your temperature probe is placed. I've read that post turbo, temps typically drop approximately 200 F.

mine is at the very top of the downpipe, right after the turbo.

generally you'll only see really high EGT if the timing is way out of whack, you go for really long extended WOT pulls, or the exhaust is too restrictive.

[Slapbladder]

As I have always said the HPA and similar design manifold have the lambda's far to close to the point of ignition facing the flame front from the exhaust ports....also the tuning needs to be looked at for sure and should be a bespoke tune NOT a standard map from other cars....every VW MK4 R32 Turbo is different even if they run the same kit.

[Arizman3]

As I have always said the HPA and similar design manifold have the lambda's far to close to the point of ignition facing the flame front from the exhaust ports....also the tuning needs to be looked at for sure and should be a bespoke tune NOT a standard map from other cars....every VW MK4 R32 Turbo is different even if they run the same kit.

Well it is what it is with my kit, HPA and HGP may indeed have crafted a design placing the lambda sensors in an inconvenient place, you'd think that these two companies would have realized their mistake and rectified it by now, the design has been around a long time. So I am stuck with the design for now.

What I am wondering now is how I go about getting a bespoke tune for my car? Wouldn't a tuner, knowing that I have lambda sensors that are far too close to the flame front, just scoff at attempting to do a bespoke tune?

[Slapbladder]

Well it is what it is with my kit, HPA and HGP may indeed have crafted a design placing the lambda sensors in an inconvenient place, you'd think that these two companies would have realized their mistake and rectified it by now, the design has been around a long time. So I am stuck with the design for now.

What I am wondering now is how I go about getting a bespoke tune for my car? Wouldn't a tuner, knowing that I have lambda sensors that are far too close to the flame front, just scoff at attempting to do a bespoke tune?

Easy fix.....get bungs for your manifold....weld in a lambda port to the down pipe post turbo 4-6" away and get UM single bank lambda code.

[DarkSideGTI]

Easy fix.....get bungs for your manifold....weld in a lambda port to the down pipe post turbo 4-6" away and get UM single bank lambda code.

Exactly what I did. Well I haven't gotten the software update yet.

[ThatVdub]

Exactly what I did. Well I haven't gotten the software update yet.

Sweet! I remember your situation... Software it the critical part though.

[jmh2002]

I have been trying not to post in this thread because I know that the 'this manifold has the 02s too close to the exhaust port' theory is popular here. Im also understanding of the fact that there are other talented tuners, with different ways of doing things, and Im not trying to hate on them either.

Also, Ill probably get flamed for being biased, however, on the flip side I think some equal consideration should be given to who is actually behind the design of the HGP manifold before everyone rushes off with a definitive conclusion in their head about the 'problem/solution'.

This manifold wasnt just thrown together and thereafter 'oh, hey, lets just drill some holes somewhere/anywhere for the o2s'. Its purposely designed to be that way, by people who do have the knowledge and experience.

The owner of HGP is formerly of VW Scientific Engineering Research & Development.
He is very well respected amongst the serious german tuning industry, and continues an association with VW, as well as TechArt, MTM & others.
HGP are well known for their conservative and reliable reputation (my car is on standard 10,000 service intervals).
There are many many cars in existence after more than 20 years of operation.
HGP has, by far, way more experience turbo tuning the VR6 than anyone else in the world.


I think it would be an error of judgement to not consider these realities when looking for answers to various issues/problems.

It would be my suggestion that it is more likely for other parameters to be causing o2 problems than for the cause to be an exhaust manifold that has a proper design pedigree, and has been proven over more than a decade with hundreds and hundreds of cars...

That is just my logic. Yours may differ.

[Slapbladder]

HPA fan boy....we didnt need the history lesson.....

its a fact that the lambda's are to close and will get damaged with the heat so close to the exhaust ports....hence the VW oem manifolds/collectors do not have lambdas in they are further down the down pipes away from the initial shock and heat.

[R32.DEVIANT]

HPA fan boy....we didnt need the history lesson.....

The above statement coming direct to you from a totally unbiased highly popular UN ass licker .....

[Slapbladder]

The above statement coming direct to you from a totally unbiased highly popular UN ass licker .....

lol hilarious quote....I don't need to speak about anyone....we were discussing exhaust manifolds and lambda location....jog on fella and learn how you car works.

[R32EEEK]

Easy fix.....get bungs for your manifold....weld in a lambda port to the down pipe post turbo 4-6" away and get UM single bank lambda code.

Exactly where I'll be going next month. Gonna plug these and move the lambdas to downpipe.

[ChrisJGuzman]

Exactly where I'll be going next month. Gonna plug these and move the lambdas to downpipe.

[Arizman3]

Exactly where I'll be going next month. Gonna plug these and move the lambdas to downpipe.

Are you going to move both of them to the downpipe or just one? Are both required when you move them or does the tune you use only interrogate one of them? Is there a specified or optimum distance from the turbo or will anywhere suffice (4 to 6 inches is best)?

Also, I assume that if I do this, my HPA software will not function properly and I will have to find someone that can provide me with a "bespoke" tune and I also assume that a bespoke tune requires the tuner have the car in his/her hands to do it?