A3/S3 Production Dates - Europe

[Travis Grundke]

Interesting chart I found tonight that appears to list the European on-sale dates for various A3 models.

Of particular interest is the bottom of the list: several S3 models are listed, two in 280hp spec and two in 300hp spec.

http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktio...hmentId=711465

[LWNY]

interesting..no info whether the S3 has the FSI or TFSI engine. And why is there 2 versions of the S3.

[Travis Grundke]

interesting..no info whether the S3 has the FSI or TFSI engine. And why is there 2 versions of the S3.

I'll say with 95% certainty that it will get the 3rd generation 2.0 TFSI. All of the motors in the new A3 are designs specific to fit the MQB mounting block position so the existing 2.0T won't work. My guess is that it will be the new integrated 2.0T like the one that just debuted in the new Q5. I think we'll find out more in a few weeks when VW starts talking about the MQB GTI which will no doubt get the new MQB 2.0T.

I read an interview in a German auto forum a few weeks back with someone at Audi AG who stated that the 2.0T in a non-S car would begin sales in 2013.

As for the two power ratings - that's a big mystery.

[kevlartoronto]

is the audi "qu" the sedan? i noticed there is going to be a 150hp and a 184hp version of the 2l tdi. hummmm

[GTI2Slow]

quattro?

[Rudy_H]

Nice find!

Unfortunately of course it is German work orders. At first I though the 280hp orders were for the last round of 2012's. -OR- Since they are only building two, I wonder too if possibly it is for comparison reasons for around the 'Ring. One of those run it around a few times and then crush them after gathering information.

I am starting to get swayed by this one...

8VAATL |Audi A3 Sportback qu. 2,|135|184| 4|CUPA|NUU|6A |11/12-12/12

I believe this is the A3 Sportback /w Quattro 2.0 TDI = 184 hp...if APR can get the same 30 hp they did with the 8P...and 300 lbs-ft of torque, after reading about the 62mpg COMBINED for the MKVII Golf TDI...

I am 100% sure my next car is an Audi ?3...damn you Audi, damn you...

[kevlartoronto]

qu= quattro. right. but now we can see the a3 tdi will be most likely offered in both 150hp and 184hp versions. let's hoping the 184hp tdi is coming to NA in the sedan. for me the alternative would be the bmw 320d which has already been announced.

[LWNY]

I'll say with 95% certainty that it will get the 3rd generation 2.0 TFSI. All of the motors in the new A3 are designs specific to fit the MQB mounting block position so the existing 2.0T won't work. My guess is that it will be the new integrated 2.0T like the one that just debuted in the new Q5. I think we'll find out more in a few weeks when VW starts talking about the MQB GTI which will no doubt get the new MQB 2.0T.

I read an interview in a German auto forum a few weeks back with someone at Audi AG who stated that the 2.0T in a non-S car would begin sales in 2013.

As for the two power ratings - that's a big mystery.

I can't be sure about using teh Q5's 2.0T, since that seem to have valvelift, which has been around for a while but Audi has not trickled it down to the transverse layout platforms. It is probably easier just to boost the turbo a bit more....since there doesn't seem to be any 2.0T (with >200hp) anymore in its line, so redesigning the 2.0T just for the S3 seems to be moot.....although it does seem to live in the VW's line, so who knows.

[Travis Grundke]

I can't be sure about using teh Q5's 2.0T, since that seem to have valvelift, which has been around for a while but Audi has not trickled it down to the transverse layout platforms. It is probably easier just to boost the turbo a bit more....since there doesn't seem to be any 2.0T (with >200hp) anymore in its line, so redesigning the 2.0T just for the S3 seems to be moot.....although it does seem to live in the VW's line, so who knows.

I have to find the article I came across a few days ago, but in an interview with Audi AG they stated that the 2.0T will be in non-S A3s starting in 2013.

[LWNY]

looking at the TT 2.0T, they do seem to have implemented valvelift on the transverse platform. Not sure why it never moved beyond that car.

[Travis Grundke]

looking at the TT 2.0T, they do seem to have implemented valvelift on the transverse platform. Not sure why it never moved beyond that car.

My guess is that they're waiting for the new MQB platform to migrate the transverse EA888 2.0T with integrated manifolds. Once the 2.0T w/valvelift is configured for MQB it will fit the Golf, Leon, A3, next generation TT and any other MQB product in the pipeline (ie: next generation Jetta, Passat, CC).

[lupingranturismo]

Is there S3 Sportback?! I don't see it..

But there are 4 S3, two with 300hp and manual or automatic gearbox and two with 280hp and manual or automatic gearbox.. it does mean that one of the two is the sportback?!

[Travis Grundke]

Is there S3 Sportback?! I don't see it..

But there are 4 S3, two with 300hp and manual or automatic gearbox and two with 280hp and manual or automatic gearbox.. it does mean that one of the two is the sportback?!

There appears to be an updated version of the PDF, I'll have to find it again and link to it. It now only shows two S3, non-sportback models, one manual and one S-tronic. Both are at 280hp.

[Rudy_H]

There appears to be an updated version of the PDF, I'll have to find it again and link to it. It now only shows two S3, non-sportback models, one manual and one S-tronic. Both are at 280hp.

I am almost wondering if those sportbacks are being allocated for use in the upcoming Auto Shows?

I haven't followed an Audi / VW this closely before so not sure on the information leaks...usually a bit more tight lipped for other cars I have been eyeing.

[djdub]

Yeah, when the new pics of the S-Line A3 Sportback got shown here yesterday, I almost pooped. The Mk7 R will be out the window if the US gets the Sportback in a fast format. The lines of the car are so perfect. Not to mention, I bet MQB is a solid chassis handling wise with Quattro.

One question, will this be a new version of Haldex or will it be a full-on Quattro? Just curious, both are good options.

[Rudy_H]

Yeah, when the new pics of the S-Line A3 Sportback got shown here yesterday, I almost pooped. The Mk7 R will be out the window if the US gets the Sportback in a fast format. The lines of the car are so perfect. Not to mention, I bet MQB is a solid chassis handling wise with Quattro.

One question, will this be a new version of Haldex or will it be a full-on Quattro? Just curious, both are good options.

This is my guess

under the column 'MKB' is the engine to be used

under the column 'GKB' I am going to guess this is the package that is in the car...

under the column 'Art' is the power train...

6S - 6-speed manual
6A - 6-speed automatic = S-Tronic
7A - 7-speed automatic = S-Tronic
HA - Haldex = Quattro (as in Haldex not Torsen)


Soooooo

I am seeing 1.8T coming with 6-speed manual or 7-speed S-Tronic and optional Quattro,

2.0 TDI, it's hard to tell which 2.0L we will get of course (150 vs 180, leaning towards 150 hoping for 180), but they will all get either 6-speed manual or 6 speed S-Tronic and optional Quattro (to be seen on the Quattro part as it wasn't offered on past TDI models in North America). Personal, it will come down to what engine they choose, and most importantly MUST have Quattro.

S3 gets 2.0TFSI /w 6-speed manual or 6-speed S-Tronic and Quattro

[Travis Grundke]

One question, will this be a new version of Haldex or will it be a full-on Quattro? Just curious, both are good options.

Oh man, careful with that line of arguing - in some of the other Audi forums this opens up a massive can of worms. ;-)

So far as Audi-speak goes, any form of all-wheel-drive goes by the "quattro" moniker. The newest version of Haldex does drive both sets of wheels and is adjustable. The consensus is: Haldex is just as good as Torsen, they're just different applications for different drivetrain layouts.

[djdub]

So I've owned a Gen.1 TT225 and 2 R32's. Sorry to offend anyone about the Haldex vs. Quattro question. Both technologies are amazing in their own rights. I'm just curious what we are working with on this model.

This will not hinder my purchase in either way.

As long a fast SPORTBACK is available. I'll be there...

[LWNY]

torsen is old school. Now it is Crown differential, which BTW, is clutchpack based (albeit mechanical via spreading of the gears when they sense a torque pushback.

Also, nothing on whether it will implment XDS or ATD, which is torque vectoring that is already on the VW cars. Or the clutch based LSD for the front axle that was announced.

[dmorrow]

Prefer the Torsen over Haldex. As long as you are only driving the wheels you are steering (is it 95% of the time for the Haldex?) I don't see the steering ever being the same as a Torsen with it sending over half the power to the rear all the time. Of course Audi says it is the same but every review I have ever seen has the "FWD based AWD" statement and it is never positive.

[LWNY]

Prefer the Torsen over Haldex. As long as you are only driving the wheels you are steering (is it 95% of the time for the Haldex?) I don't see the steering ever being the same as a Torsen with it sending over half the power to the rear all the time. Of course Audi says it is the same but every review I have ever seen has the "FWD based AWD" statement and it is never positive.

Torsen is ancient history for Audi. Their next big thing is dual wet clutch based differential.

Its not a matter of haldex vs Torsen, since the haldex AWD system is implemented in the Veyron, Aventador and its variation first showed up in the 959 (but those are all A3's haldex in reverse), but the fact the front wheels are permanently driven and the rear are on-demand.

As for the reviews of torsen based AWD, I wouldn't say they are exactly spectacular, mainly due to the way the engine lies in the chassis. The new 'torsens' are a bit better due to chassis redesign, and so will the new A3...due to the same chassis redesign. But neither are designed with balanced chassis above all other factors, given Audi is not going to put holes in their engine for their driveshaft or lengthen its bonnet by 12 inches just so the engine could be relocated.

[Crocodile]

Torsen is ancient history for Audi. Their next big thing is dual wet clutch based differential.

Its not a matter of haldex vs Torsen, since the haldex AWD system is implemented in the Veyron, Aventador and its variation first showed up in the 959 (but those are all A3's haldex in reverse), but the fact the front wheels are permanently driven and the rear are on-demand.

As for the reviews of torsen based AWD, I wouldn't say they are exactly spectacular, mainly due to the way the engine lies in the chassis. The new 'torsens' are a bit better due to chassis redesign, and so will the new A3...due to the same chassis redesign. But neither are designed with balanced chassis above all other factors, given Audi is not going to put holes in their engine for their driveshaft or lengthen its bonnet by 12 inches just so the engine could be relocated.

With Haldex being electronic and Torsen being mechanical, Haldex can react more quickly to lost traction than Torsen, so is quicker to re-allocate power to counter slip. That being the case, Haldex has evolved into a better system than Torsen as well as being more reliable. I've seen various videos of Torsen-equipped Quattros racing and when the car was drifted, the Torsen system was fooled and over-corrected too late causing the car to spin off out of control.

BTW, the 280 bhp 2.0Ts may refer to versions of this engine bound for US S3 models (Sportback and Sedan). The US needs cars in a slightly lower state of tune because the quality of pump gasoline isn't the same as Europe. This happened with the Golf R and other Audis so may explain the difference.

That said, we should definitely expect a standard 2.0 litre inline 4 with about 220-240 bhp. This is the engine that will go into the Golf GTI. The only reason it hasn't been announced for the new A3 is because the new Golf GTI mk 7 hasn't yet been debuted. We should see a Golf GTI at the Paris show in a few days time. Hopefully, everything will be explained.

[LWNY]

With Haldex being electronic and Torsen being mechanical, Haldex can react more quickly to lost traction than Torsen, so is quicker to re-allocate power to counter slip. That being the case, Haldex has evolved into a better system than Torsen as well as being more reliable. I've seen various videos of Torsen-equipped Quattros racing and when the car was drifted, the Torsen system was fooled and over-corrected too late causing the car to spin off out of control.

BTW, the 280 bhp 2.0Ts may refer to versions of this engine bound for US S3 models (Sportback and Sedan). The US needs cars in a slightly lower state of tune because the quality of pump gasoline isn't the same as Europe. This happened with the Golf R and other Audis so may explain the difference.

That said, we should definitely expect a standard 2.0 litre inline 4 with about 220-240 bhp. This is the engine that will go into the Golf GTI. The only reason it hasn't been announced for the new A3 is because the new Golf GTI mk 7 hasn't yet been debuted. We should see a Golf GTI at the Paris show in a few days time. Hopefully, everything will be explained.

Purely mechanical limited slip does not have to react, the gears feels a twist by the axle that has less grip and locks up. There is no actual slip taking place. What the electronic units like Haldex can do is guess the kind of condition it is in and do what's required, like fully engage AWD, engage partially, etc.

A purely mechanical unit locks up and will just stay locked up until the low grip condition is over, thus when locked up, the rear will turn at the same rate as the front wheel, thus could overdrive the rear wheels in turns. If there is no ESP, the car's momentum will do what it wants to do. It then comes down to the driver to make fine tune adjustments to stay on course.

As for 280hp of the S3, I am thinking it might be on the low end. As the top end cars's hp has gone from 400hp to 500hp and now 600hp. 300hp seems to be the old 200hp.

[Crocodile]

Purely mechanical limited slip does not have to react, the gears feels a twist by the axle that has less grip and locks up..

That's exactly what I mean. With Torsen there is a gap in between the gears feeling slip and reacting, while with Haldex, the electronic system can measure minute differences in slip between the axles and react faster.

You may be right about bhp. I hope so.

[dmorrow]

That's exactly what I mean. With Torsen there is a gap in between the gears feeling slip and reacting, while with Haldex, the electronic system can measure minute differences in slip between the axles and react faster.

You may be right about bhp. I hope so.

I believe the S4 splits the torque 40 Front/60 Rear as standard so it doesn't need to react like the Haldex 100 front/0 rear system. The chances of having to redirect any torque are far less likely. Also, from a performance standpoint I don't see a reason to ever send a high percentage of the torque to the front wheels. When you start with a FWD car and add AWD to it this is what you end up with.

A system that drives the rears most of the time and sends occasional drive to the fronts like the exotics with Haldex mentioned above makes a lot more performance sense than the opposite.

https://sites.google.com/site/awdand4wd/

[LWNY]

That's exactly what I mean. With Torsen there is a gap in between the gears feeling slip and reacting, while with Haldex, the electronic system can measure minute differences in slip between the axles and react faster.

Torsen is Mechanical limited slip, thus it does not require slip. Torsen = Torque Sensing, not Slip sensing. Viscous coupling = Slip sensing.

If you catch the electronic AWD like Haldex offguard, it might need a fraction of a second to lock the differential, but in that fraction of a second, the tire could have started slipping, and once it starts slipping, it is harder for it to regain grip w/o electronic aid, this is because coefficient of drag is lower on a sliding object than one that hasn't slid yet.