What do you mean you’re “outsourcing my position”?! -or- the "Diamond Dave looks for a job" thread

[Diamond Dave]

This is so ironic it’s almost comical. My job has been outsourced. As in, the entire sales and marketing functional area. Did I mention I was the Director of Sales for a BPO (business process outsourcer)?


So, I thought I'd make a "project" thread about the process of me looking for work; since I'm never short on ideas about everyone else's job search My target is to have a job or offer by Nov 15. If I don't have something by that point, I won't expect anything until February 2013.


I've been casually looking for a few months anyway, so it's not like I'm at ground zero, but still, I'd have much rather found a job while I was employed. Oh well, the time off will be nice to spend with the kids. I love this time of year anyway.


I plan to use the hunt and steal method as opposed to applying for jobs. I'll post some screen shots of how I track the jobs I'm trying to land and the type of information I use to contact the people doing the hiring.





Hit me with any questions or comments.





[edit - Oct8]
If you haven't seen my Lessons, here they are for your convenience.

Lesson 1 - So you need a job. What are you doing?

Lesson 2 - So you need a job. You do have a resume; don't you?

Lesson 3 - So you need a job. Where are you looking?

Lesson 4 - So you need a job. Are you job hunting or snipe hunting?

Lesson 5 - So you need a job. Tips on how to *submit* your resume.

[Egilbe]

Ironic it is

Good Luck in your job search, Dave.

[MotownSVT]

Good Luck in your job search, Dave.

I'll second that. But I'm not sure there's anyone more qualified for the job search/interview process.

[Papa Dras]

I think this is a great idea for a thread and should prove to provide some valuable information.

[FISCAL]

great idea sir. Where is the like button

[scandalous_cynce]

Looking forward to following

[Diamond Dave]

Thanks for the comments guys. Honestly though, the new schedule is great and my commute is about 5 minutes by long board while my kids ride their bikes to school.


Here's how I search for a new job.


First, the patented Diamond Dave Job Hunting method: Find companies that should hire you; don't look for job postings. Why is that? If there is a job posting, there are hundreds of applicants; many probably better than you. If you network with the people that should be hiring you anyway, they start thinking of you at their company and where you'd slot in to the organization. Pretty soon, they're subconsciously writing a job description for you. Then you're only competing with yourself. Sure, apply to a ton of things along the way, but when you make your own opportunity in the world, your sense of value grows exponentially.




Sorry it's so damn small and grainy. I'm already at odds putting people's names and contact info up, but, suck it.

The key information fields are the company names and the contact names. You'll see that most companies don't have a position listed. That's because there isn't one advertised. I don't care. Those are companies that I could work for or that I want to work for, so I'll be calling the Director or VP directly to introduce myself and network. Some of these are companies I knew about, others were referred to me when I reached out to my LinkedIn group and others came from basic research for my job title in SimplyHired.com.

I use LinkedIn to find everyone. I haven't paid money to LinkedIn in years. Just use your Google membership.

- linkedin.com: company + title
This gives you a longer list of names to choose from or it gives you the last name when LI only gives you the first name.

Finding contact information:
- John Doe + Company + contact
- John Doe + Company + .xls/.pdf/.doc
- "John Doe" + title + companyemail.com



I built this Everything that looks like a hyperlink is a hyperlink. I go to the company Web site and get the link to the "job opportunities" or "careers" page and use right click + hyperlink to insert it in the cell. Then I do the same for the landing page that the job description is on under the title of the job description. And finally, I copy the full job description and paste it into a comment attached to the job description (because they'll kill the hyperlink to the job opening sometimes).


Second, Unemployment tracking is slightly different than a real job search because a real job search entails numerous functions with the same employer. The State doesn't view those as productive. They view shipping resumes off into cyberspace as being productive. So, I spend about 2hrs and grab 5-10 plausible job postings that satisfy that requirement. They're the kind of job postings you "think" are going to pan out, but since 500 people applied for them, they most likely won't.




This spreadsheet should contain all the info you'd need to make your unemployment claim quickly and effectively. Also, if audited, you'll have documentation. If, by some miracle, you actually DO get called by a recruiter, you'll be able to quickly orient yourself to the company, the position you applied for and when you applied. For reference, I started this unemployment sheet from scratch during my son's first day at Kindergarten. Took about 2hrs. Oregon only requires you make 3 attempts per week, yet I'm able to make 12 attempts in 2hrs



For each of these spreadsheets (as books within a spreadsheet), you'll want to update it each time with notes in a note field and with the exact name of the person you spoke with as well as email/phone/title. I also like to leave some indication in a note as to what the next expected step is or what I was told the next step will be.

[FISCAL]

holy ****, Dave! You are the man

[Tinker Toy]

It could be anticipated that you might use this thread as a reference in your resume or in an email application letter to show that you can organize a creative, systematic job search method and have the energy to post it here for the benefit of others. Good luck to you with your quest.

[mrothwell]

I like this thread, it seems like an innovative method for finding a job. It seems more biased towards small companies though. I've found that the large corporations love to do things more anonymously. Maybe to make it a bit more challenging, try getting a job at a huge company like GE, Boeing, or Bank of America.

[Egilbe]

I like this thread, it seems like an innovative method for finding a job. It seems more biased towards small companies though. I've found that the large corporations love to do things more anonymously. Maybe to make it a bit more challenging, try getting a job at a huge company like GE, Boeing, or Bank of America.

It works the same way. Get to know the people in the organization that make the decisions. Hiring at that level is usually a top-down request. The people at the top can tell the hiring manager who to hire.

[Diamond Dave]

I like this thread, it seems like an innovative method for finding a job. It seems more biased towards small companies though. I've found that the large corporations love to do things more anonymously. Maybe to make it a bit more challenging, try getting a job at a huge company like GE, Boeing, or Bank of America.

long answer:
Yes and no. I'm talking with one of the VP's for Siemens. It's not so much about getting a handshake job offer, it's about talking with the person at the top of the food chain.

Here's how a recruiting process at both might work.

Small company: job posting --> recruiter/hiring manager

Large company: job posting -> recruiting coordinator -> recruiter -> manager -> hiring manager -> Department manager

You can't really skip the process with a larger company, but which situation would you rather: apply with the other 500 people or would you rather the HM or DM walk over to the recruiter and tell them "bring in this candidate for an interview".


Short answer:

It works the same way. Get to know the people in the organization that make the decisions. Hiring at that level is usually a top-down request. The people at the top can suggest to the hiring manager who to hire.

slam dunk.

It could be anticipated that you might use this thread as a reference in your resume or in an email application letter to show that you can organize a creative, systematic job search method and have the energy to post it here for the benefit of others.

While I appreciate your sentiments, I can't see a plausible reason how that would add any value. No future employer really cares about how you do your job search unless a job search is related to your job function.

[mrothwell]

long answer:
Yes and no. I'm talking with one of the VP's for Siemens. It's not so much about getting a handshake job offer, it's about talking with the person at the top of the food chain.

Here's how a recruiting process at both might work.

Small company: job posting --> recruiter/hiring manager

Large company: job posting -> recruiting coordinator -> recruiter -> manager -> hiring manager -> Department manager

You can't really skip the process with a larger company, but which situation would you rather: apply with the other 500 people or would you rather the HM or DM walk over to the recruiter and tell them "bring in this candidate for an interview".

Oh I totally understand, its just that it's generally harder to get into contact and stand out from others with the VP of Seimens than the VP of "Joe's local widget company". At the last place I worked (division of United Technologies Corp), the director of engineering would get calls all the time from people wanting to apply, and he would politely give them the number for HR and not think anything else about it.

[Diamond Dave]

Quick update from last week.

Topic- Skirting the application process and going to the top of the food chain.

Had a networking conversation with a Business Development (BDM) acquaintance I’d met on several other occasions while attending conferences or trade shows. Let him know my situation and he gave me insight on how to approach his boss (Director of Sales). He said his boss would appreciate a succinct email introduction and that I should request time on his calendar to connect by phone later next week. He also gave me his boss’ email address.


Here’s the sanitized sample example of what I did and the result I have so far First email sent on Thursday the 13th.

This is a correspondence with a Director of Sales from a company that has a division of products that I could fit well with. In fairness, I have spoken several times with a BDM that works reports to this Director and this BDM told me that his boss was at one of the conferences we attended, so I’m taking some artistic license when I tell him “we spoke about opportunities”. He’s met a few hundred people in the intervening months, so he totally doesn’t remember that we haven’t met. But, I was at the conference and I know they were there, so that’s good enough for me.



Jack,
My name is Diamond Dave. We met briefly at CS Week earlier this year when John Smith introduced us. I've met John on several occasions at other trade conferences. At CS Week the three of us had a brief conversation and you mentioned some growing opportunities with ABC Company and I'd like to follow-up with you on a business development role for someone with experience selling to Gas, electric, and water utility companies.

I've been in outside sales roles for the better part of 10 years and always selling solutions through consultative or relation-ship based techniques. My recent experience was with XYZ Company as the Director of Sales & Marketing. XYZ Company supports utilities with call center and payment transaction solutions.

If you have time, I'd like to have a phone call with you next week on Wednesday the 19th at 10AM PST. I can be reached on my cell phone at (503) 555-1212 I'm sure you must travel frequently, so if there is a date or time that works better for your schedule, please don't hesitate to adjust the date.

I look forward to speaking with you.

Regards,
Diamond Dave



note: I sent my email on the 13th and his out of office email was turned on, indicating that he would be back to work on the 17th, but this reply came back to me on the 14th.

Hi Diamond Dave,
We have a new President, and he has decided to build out our medical division faster than the utility division.
I will ask him for an update on time frame as to when we are moving forward with hiring for the utility segment and get back to you.

Can you please send me your resume?
Thanks,
Jack Smith
Director of Sales

Jack, please find my resume enclosed. When you receive your update on Utility growth, please keep me posted. If you feel my background could be applied toward the medical vertical to benefit ABC Company, I'd be happy to discuss my abilities with you.

Regards,
Diamond Dave

Thanks Diamond Dave….I will put you in the queue and reach out once we move forward with our hiring in the utility vertical
Jack Smith

Director of Sales

So, what does this mean? In the span of 96hrs (Sept13 to Sept17), I have introduced myself to a hiring manager, he's let me know the company is going through change (new President) and that the Utility vertical is on hold for awhile. However, he has asked for my resume and he can track me for the moment he thinks they might do hiring. He won't need to open a req, go to HR and write the job posting, have recruiting post the job, or wait for recruiting to spend a week (or three) screening mouth breather online applicants. He'll simply open my resume or search for this email string. I also know that I don't need to spend the next 4wks on pins and needles hoping that I'll get a phone call from them and then getting disappointed when I don't hear from them.

[Diamond Dave]

In other news, if anyone is looking to buy a Recaro Trophy office chair or Recaro Office chair adapter or a pair of power Recaro trophy's, hit me up.



1) recaro trophy office chair
2) set of power Recaro trophies
3) Recaro Office chair adapter plate

[Diamond Dave]

Here's another correspondence with one of my friends that generated from my initial "Hey everyone, a funny thing happened on Thursday" email through LinkedIn.

Send me your resume...I can pass it over to the regional sales manager here at EMC if you are interested! I report dotted line to him and can make a recommendation. He has been hiring too.

Jane

Jane, I've finally finished my resume update. Please forward this to your boss. I'm not sure what needs EMC has, but I'm looking for a Regional or National business development role.

dd

Diamond Dave,
I sent your resume to Luke Skywalker (Regional Sales in PacNW) and his manager Speed Racer (National Sales). They both cover Commercial accounts, which focuses on customers with a certain number of employees / annual earnings (not sure exactly what the breaking point is between SMB, Commercial and Enterprise). SMB (Small Market Business) & Commercial tend to juggle more customer and have a tight relationship with Partners/Resellers. I support Luke’s team to drive booked deals into production. Good group of people. There are a 3-4 sales reps in Portland now. It’s a growing business.

Warm Regards,
Jane Doe

Based on their job opportunities page, I'm not sure if I'd be considered for one of their sales positions if one of their recruiters saw my resume. Also, the positions service multiple geographic areas, so they might prefer an "easy" candidate that already lives in NorCal, as opposed to onie living in Oregon and covering NorCal. However, a personal referral to the Hiring Manager is gold. THEY know what they want. And if one of their employees recommends someone, they are way more likely to reach out to that person.

[Gus Polinski]

Subscribed. I've been "looking" for over a year now. My disadvantage is that I left my job of 10+ years to move to a small town because my wife was promoted into a killer c-level position. As for the town, we're talking < 100k people, and most of them work with sheep, oil, or wear scrubs to work. So I'm at a distinct disadvantage already, coming from an IT and technical sales background . The irony is that while I'm looking for something that's a better fit, I'm working as a technical recruiter to fill positions in every part of the country except here .
Anyways, DD knows his stuff, and I'm following along here. I'm not here forever though, so hopefully when we move back to civilization I can have some ideas on how to get re-acquainted to a real job market

[bubbagti]

Following this thread

[Diamond Dave]

names and company names have been altered to enhance anonymity



Here's a reply from the first company I spoke with. They have no opportunities posted anywhere, but a business associate suggested I contact the VP and introduced myself while referencing his name since they *might* be looking in the near future.


Good afternoon David,
My name is Diamond Dave and I have National Business Development experience selling call center and consulting services to Utility companies. I've recently begun a confidential search for a Business Development role that will allow me to leverage my experience and contacts in the Utility industry and John Smith at Navex Global spoke very highly of Energy Motion Software. It's likely that you and I have met through my involvement with the National Energy Association at the Spring Conference or annual meetings.

I would enjoy having a conversation with you regarding any opportunity that Energy Motion Software may have today or in the future for someone with my background.

Regards,
Diamond Dave

Hello David,

Thanks for the note. I'll be on the road for the next couple of weeks, and Katarina (our recruiter) is on vacation, so unless there's a big rush on your side I'd like to have Katarina get back to you in tge second half of September.

Which utilities have you worked with the most? What have you sold and to which people in which departments?

All the best, and talk to you soon,

David

Thanks David,
I'd be more than happy to speak with Katarina when she's back from travel.

I've been selling services and solutions to companies for about 10 years. Typically it's the type of service that they can do internally, but they might lack the resources or the skill to do at the level they desire; so I've needed to perfect a consultative and relationship-based sales approach. I've got experience selling staffing and recruiting services and I even owned my own head hunting company for a few years (closed when the economy ground to a halt in 2010). Most recently, with Outsourcings Utility Teleservices, I've sold contact center and Payment transaction services. Interestingly, my background head hunting has given me the greatest experience with researching targets, identifying decision makers, and getting their direct contact information. I typically engage with Director level and above contacts to build business. I'm very skilled at developing relationships through becoming a Subject Matter Expert or through participating in niche organizations. This method obviously allows me to brand my company and gain access to decision makers, but most importantly, it gives me credibility because I'm participating and giving back to the collective community. Credibility makes people pick up or return phone calls and makes buying decisions easier.

Most of the Utility contacts I know are at the Director level and had oversight across several pieces of the organization. Some were Director/VP of Operations and others were Director/VP of Customer Service (Even if they aren't the direct contact that Energy Motion Software would contact, I could leverage a referral to the correct contact). The majority of my contacts had little to do with the T&D side of the house. Most of the contacts were concerned specifically about maintaining or raising customer satisfaction or they wanted to maintain an edge on competition through customer satisfaction. I have existing connections with the following Utility companies:

BC Hydro (current Pulse client)
NorthWestern Energy
NW Natural Gas
PacifiCorp
Puget Sound Energy
SouthWest Gas
Questar Gas
SMUD
Vectren Energy
PGE (Portland General Electric)
Montana-Dakota / Inter-mountain Gas
Fortis BC


Please forward my info to Katarina and she can schedule or call when she returns from vacation. I'm seeking a National or Regional Business Development role with a majority focus on landing new business. I can develop a territory or grow an existing territory. I'm open to travel and I'm interested in a remote, home-based office rather than relocating.


Regards,
Diamond Dave




Here's the response from Mlonday.

Hi David,

Thanks for reaching out. I will be happy to set up a phone call with you some time this week.
Could you please send me your resume and your availability?
Thank you!

Best Regards,
Katarina

In other news, I put fresh bearings on my daily driver.

[Diamond Dave]

As we all know, the best time to find a new job is when you have one already. Obviously, this allows you the opportunity to be as picky as possible about your next opportunity. Well, being unemployed presents several challenges that you need to cope with, mentally, in order to come out on top.


Right now, there are a lot of opportunities out there, but they're just "jobs". I liken a job search to going to a HS dance. There's a few hot chicks you want to hook up with, a lot of average ones, and then there are the "others". It all depends on how desperate you are to get back to work.

I've got a few companies that want to talk with me about local sales jobs that are exactly like what I was doing 10yrs ago. Sadly, the pay is what I was earning 10yrs ago (~$40K + commission) and the scope of the role is really further back in my skill set. This tells me that if I needed to make an immediate shift in to working, there are opportunities. However, my goal is to find something exciting AND that is in my salary range (~$85K+). To achieve that goal, I've got to get more than just one company interested at the same time so I can leverage my salary negotiations.


Also, keep in mind that in order to maintain some of your sanity and stay "fresh" you need to smell the roses. Would you like to have a job right now? Yes. Is getting a job immediately within your power? No. Come to grips with that and start balancing your like. Get on a workout program; you'll feel better about yourself. Volunteer at your kid's school and be more involved while you can. Tackle those house projects that you've ignored because you were "working hard". But don't forget about working to find that job while you diversify your activities.

Also, here's my Dear John letter from the company above that I cold called. A perfect reminder that a resume isn't going to get you anywhere. You need to be in front of the hiring manager; not just email and phone calls, but referrals from people he knows. It's got to seem to him that everyone is talking about you and that he really needs to evaluate what the buzz is about. This time, no buzz for DD Hard to be too disappointed though; easy come, easy go. Or perhaps, another "No" out of the way on the long path to a "YES".

Hi David,

Yes, I did receive your resume. Thank you.
I sent it to our VP Sales and unfortunately he can't see a match for you right now. I will keep your resume on file and as soon as something that matches your profile comes up, I'll contact you.

Best regards,
Katarina

I did get a VM from a company looking for a Regional Business Development role. It's with a company that is nicely corporate, but I'm not thrilled about working for them. The pay, however, is more in line with what I need salary wise. $2K/mo on unemployment or ~$7K a month to get a job where I could do working unemployment. Hmm, I'll have to think about this.


Also, I qualify for a program through the State for Self Employment Assistance. Basically, I submit a business plan, they approve it, and I get 52wks of unemployment payments so I can start my own business. I've got a few options with this, but honestly, I just don't see this next 2yrs as being the best time to start a successful business. We'll see.

[Diamond Dave]

Calls and more calls this week. I reached out to a VP of sales from one of the Sales partner companies I was working with earlier this year and it turns out he left that company as well. He did give me some leads of companies that are looking for people in Business Development. I also tracked down another VP from my target company list, this time they have a currently advertised opening. Again, I'd rather the guy at the top of the food chain forward my resume to the recruiter as opposed to waiting for the recruiter to get excited about looking for my resume and calling me.

Here's the laundry list of things I do to get ready for a cold call to companies (assuming I've got his name and number).

-pull up the full job description from the Web site (more on this later)
-pull up the company Web site in another window or tab and read through it briefly; news items, management team, products, etc.
-pull up the contact's LinkedIn profile and look through it one more time to review this person's history. Maybe you are familiar with someone or some company they used to work for. Maybe you went to the same school as them. Maybe their football team just had a great game last weekend, etc.
-write down your notes on your brief elevator pitch (the who are you and why are you calling pitch). This should take 10-15secs and sound very relaxed, yet professional
-make a note on your call sheet (that you use to track your productivity) about the purpose for your call or where you want the call to go.

So, I dialed the phone number, turns out it's Canadian () and it send me through the phone tree. I select the option to go through the company directory and dial by last name. It sends me to the automated system (and a nice lady pronounces his name completely differently than I was prepared to so I made a phonetic note on my notebook) and I can hear the computer ringing 3 times, then it transfers me to his cell phone. Immediately I know he's going to answer, but since this phone system was similar to mine, I know there's a 10sec delay before he can hear me. Anyway, I introduce myself and the first thing he says is "where did you see that posting; we hired for that position" Told him it was on the Web site (which I knew, since I had the Web site up) and mentioned that it said they were hiring for 3 regions. Then I asked if they hired for all 3 or if they pulled them back. This is me mildly controlling the conversational flow with my own questions, rather than getting boxed in to letting him direct the conversation. Turns out he doesn't oversee the sales organization, but told me to get in touch with a different VP. He told me her name, I verified the spelling and asked for the best way to get in touch with her (translation: please give me a direct dial phone number). So, he actually gave me her phone and email and I thanked him for his time, but also gave my full name once more "thank you for your time John, again, my name is David Barwick. I'll contact Mary." He most likely forgot my name after he told me they hired for that position, so I wanted to make sure that if for some reason this gal he referred me to happened to mention me to her, that he would have a chance at confirming our conversation. Just free marketing behind the scenes. You'd want two VP's talking about you when you're trying to get a job. "yeah, that David called me directly. he was professional on the phone and sounded like he has experience selling to our verticals"



A few tips when calling prospective employers (that aren't expecting a call from you).

1. I always leave a message. In today's technologically connected world, your number shows up or is tracked by the phone system or the phone you're calling. So, you might as well leave a brief message rather than look like the guy that called 10 times and never left one. Besides, you've already put the time into dialing the number.

2. Use this message format when possible for cold calls:
-This message is for John Smith (if Vm has no name recording)
-My name is Diamond Dave, my phone number is xxxx.
-(if there is a connection or you were referred to this person, state that now)
-I'm calling to find out about opportunities for a Regional or National Business Development position with your company.
-Restate your name and phone number.

3. Always press '#' for the best message
90% of modern VM systems have menu options available at any time during the voicemail answering service once you press '#'. Something like: Press 1 to listen to your message, press 2 to re-record, press 3 to access another mailbox. If you get in the habit of pressing '#', you can really save yourself some heartache from stumbling on the message, saying something stupid, or just plain sounding like a stalker.

4. when you get someone on the phone and find out they aren't the correct person to speak with, don't give up, build rapport with them and get them talking. You'll find out they got a new CEO and things are on hold for awhile or you'll find out they just got a huge contract and they'll need to hire soon or you'll find out that the person you really want to speak with just got back from a honeymoon. This is all information that will come in handy for your next call, so write it down.



Lastly, Fall in Oregon really is amazing. It's a great time of year to be unemployed. I need to figure out a solution for my son during the day though. Having a 3hr break from a kindergartner really forces me to stay on a tight schedule.

I've got a networking event tonight. The organizer will let me in free in exchange for me working the front door and handing out tickets.

[Thrice]

This is a great thread and as someone who probably lives 15 minutes from you I can wholeheartedly agree that this time of the year in Oregon is awesome.

[Diamond Dave]

So, it was an interesting networking event last night. It's a great example that I wanted to share with you. File it under the benefits of networking or the importance of developing a wide range of business associates across several industries. If nothing else, it's nice to be able to have something tangible to talk about when my friends ask about my job search. I've got so many people in my group of friends that are genuinely interested in how my job search is going, that it can be a little depressing to keep reporting "nope, I haven't found something yet". Even though I know it's only been a few weeks, it does leave a mark on a person's mental outlook. So, guys, if you know of someone that's out of work, take them out for a beer and DON't ask them how their job search is going

I was able to reconnect with quite a few friends; some knew I was out of work already and others heard for the first time.

I ended up running in to my old boss at this event as well. We ended up going out for a beer afterward too. It was flattering to hear him tell me how awful he feels and how confident he is in my ability and how he's sure that I'll lad something that will let me earn the money I should be making. He also told me, he's never seen someone act so professionally while getting let go and that he respects me even more. He's personally spoken with almost a dozen business associates or prospects that I interfaced with to fill them in on the situation and make sure they understood that my departure was purely a shift in business as opposed to something negative about me. He's genuinely a nice guy. It's a nice reminder of the importance of not burning bridges.


I didn't realize it until I saw one of the girls, but I had applied (online and totally cold merely to satisfy my weekly unemployment filing) with her company for a regional business development role (that I actually want) a few weeks ago, but I was playing phone tag with the recruiter and hadn't heard from her in a week. She asked for that recruiter's name and said she'd ping her to give me a quick reference. Surprisingly, I got a call this morning from the recruiter and we had a brief, but very strong conversation. Not to brag, but I'm shocked at how well I can steer these calls sometimes (* note below). I found out that this job fits me and my desires very well, the scope is something I'm able to handle easily, the salary is well within my range, and (unfortunately) it looks like they're trying to move on the position ASAP. I was kind of hoping to have a few months of down time to get some projects done.


*note
So, a large part of job hunting is demonstrating control or confidence. If you are an applicant on a phone screen or in an interview, you should have a little alarm that goes off in your head to remind you to stop passively answering their questions like a sacrificial lamb. While the goal of a recruiter is to get candidates talking and give them some flexibility to impress you or hang themselves, as an applicant, make sure you are mining everyone for information. ASK questions and get answers so you can use that information later in the call to your advantage. How long has this role been open? What are the immediate initiatives in this role? Looking at my background, what areas do you feel give me an edge on other candidates? For extra credit, you can do the same thing from a sales angle; but only in face to face meetings: So, let's assume you've just hired me, what are the key initiatives we'll work on? Once I'm hired, what does the mentoring process look like from the Executive leadership to me and then from me to the field? --> any time you can get them responding to a scenario where you're already working there is good stuff

Two more things I did on this phone call that were purely to help create my image with the recruiter. 1) she apologized profusely about not getting back to me, to which I replied that I had no problem with that, and that I just assumed that if she were hiring a capable BDM, that person should be able to demonstrate some ability to reach her through different avenues. Again, it was totally happenstance how my friend emailed her, but I subtly reorganized this information in her head to leave her with the impression that I consciously used my network to reach her. 2) at the end of the call, I made sure to recap several areas where I felt the role or the company aligned with my target job and reiterated to her my interest in moving further in their process. Lots of times, candidates are so concerned with being "professional" that they forget to restate the obvious; that they really are interested in this role. That alone carries a lot of weight.

Talking salary with recruiters
Oh, so I liked this recruiter and she was capable, but I thought I'd note a frequent topic. Her 2nd question to me was "How much do you need?" Now, I really don't mind her being forward and direct, because you have to right size candidates quickly sometimes. I don't recommend blurting out your salary until you know how much you can ask for. Also, by answering her question, I put her in control. Never give something unless you get something So I gave her my old talk off of "well, at this time, I only have a limited understanding of the full scope of the role or even the compensation structure, so I'll need more details from you before we can talk about salary." And, it worked. She told me a few details and then said "this role should pay out in six figures." So then I clarified "That's nice, but do you mean mean it's six figures as in $180-200K or is it six figures as in $105K; because there's a big difference." She laughed and then told me the base was somewhere in the $90K range and with full comp it could be in the $140+ range. Bingo! I just found out what my base should be. Nothing wrong with 8-12wks off and a 15% pay increase. I suppose I should have told her I wanted a $95 base, but realistically, it's $2/hr difference and I can easily get that back later when I ask for 5wks PTO and they balk at that.

[Numbersix]

Are you friggin' KIDDING ME, Dave?

Good lord. We should talk, dude. My network isn't huge in PDX, but I'm happy to do what I can (as always).

[Diamond Dave]

Are you friggin' KIDDING ME, Dave?

Good lord. We should talk, dude. My network isn't huge in PDX, but I'm happy to do what I can (as always).

Oops, I guess I hadn't gotten around to it yet

NOTE- a classic fail is neglecting to let your friend/fellow Vortexer/fellow recruiter know you are looking for work.

I'll call you Monday or Tuesday. As always, I appreciate anyone that can keep an eye out for me.

[Numbersix]

NOTE- a classic fail is neglecting to let your friend/fellow Vortexer/fellow recruiter know you are looking for work.

It's fine. You've been hitting it hard, and honestly your network in that space is likely far better than mine. I'm always happy to help you out, though.

[PolskiHetzen]

For the uninformed, can you explain what your position is and does? A lot of the titles and positions and terms you're using don't mean much to an accountant freshly-ish out of school.

Good thread though.

[moose82]

Dave,

This is a great thread. Thanks for the information. I am about to start looking for a new job and a lot of your tips will come in very handy.

Good luck locking down a new job!

[Diamond Dave]

For the uninformed, can you explain what your position is and does? A lot of the titles and positions and terms you're using don't mean much to an accountant freshly-ish out of school.

In this thread, I'm a former recruiter that's been preaching heavily for the last 5yrs on what to do to get a job and how simple it is to just do it my way. Now I'm walking the walk. In public.

BTW, have you read my Lessons? Lesson 1 - So you need a job. What are you doing?

My trade is sales; I sell services. Up until the first of September, I was the Director of Sales & Marketing for an outsourcing call center. I'm currently looking for Regional or National Business Development positions for BPO (business Process Outsourcing) or services.

What does a Business Development Manager do? Beyond "selling" a Business Development Manager identifies targets, markets to those targets, introduces his company/product/service to key decision makers, and builds relationships with those key decision makers. If a target already has a vendor, I spend time fostering value in those relationships until the next bid comes up. Those key contacts need to think of me whenever they might need something my firm provides. You build relationships with these contacts that transcend the product you're currently selling or the company you're currently working with. These are people that pick up the phone when I call because they want to catch up on what's been happening in my life and tell me about theirs. It's not uncommon for me to have a relationship with many of the VP's where I don't need appointments when I visit and I'll typically have their cell phone number anyway. They know my kids' names & the sports they play, and my hobbies as well. The reason I'm able to do this is that I really do build trust with my contacts by telling them when they don't need something I'm not selling or if I know a vendor that does what they need, I'll refer them and take interest that they get what they're seeking.


Not sure which terms in particular you don't understand so feel free to clarify, but aside from posting a standard org chart, here are a few:

C-Suite - Chief Executive Officer (CEO), Chief Operations Officer (COO), Chief Marketing Officer (CMO), Chief Finance Officer (CFO), Chief Customer Officer (CCO)
Vice Presidents
Directors (Director of Marketing, Director of Operations, etc.)
Managers
Assistant managers
Line level managers
Supervisors
Individual contributors

Luckily, all companies do it differently and not all titles are utilized or they're combined or they don't mean what they imply

In Accounting, you should be looking to find the Accounting Manager or Director of Finance, since those are the people that you would typically report to or they would be the ones involved in forecasting a need in their department. The Accounting Manager might know he needs to make a hire before the end of the year, but the Director of Finance would know they'll need analysts in advance of tax season, a cost accountant in Engineering, and a credit Manager. That's why I'd talk with Directors.

I am about to start looking for a new job and a lot of your tips will come in very handy.

Good luck locking down a new job!

Thanks. Just trying to spread the information you rarely see. I hope the "build thread" format is appealing.

[moose82]

Thanks. Just trying to spread the information you rarely see. I hope the "build thread" format is appealing.

Absolutely. I'm going through my network looking for my next job. It's good to have some better ideas of conversations to have with the contacts which have been provided to me through my network, but do not have a relationship with personally. My first job search after the military was quite a bit different than how I am handling it this time.

Thanks again.

[germanrox]

Dave,

Love your spreadsheet layout of how you keep track of companies. I'm going to start using that format with some slight tweaks to keep track of the people in my organization. You've got this documentation thing down very well!

Cheers,

Sean

[Diamond Dave]

Update on my strongest lead so far. It's the staffing firm mentioned above. Regional/National Business Development and it's a role that I'd be happy doing.

I took my online "personality test" yesterday; the Hogan Personality Inventory. It was ~250 T/F questions: I am in control of my success. I feel like a failure. I would enjoy a loud social event. I enjoy speaking in front of a large group of people. I've read over 14 books this year. I have frequent acid indigestion. etc. Once I finished, I sent my recruiter an email letting her know I finished (helps cut the down time, even though I know she probably got an immediate email from the online portal). NOTE I put my cell phone number on every email I send to recruiters. I don't want them to spend 15seconds searching through hundreds of resumes or dozens of file folders to find my resume so they can get my number. Make it EASY to be called!

Apparently I'm arrogant and cocky enough for this sales role because the recruiter wanted to set up a phone screen for a few hours later. Keep in mind, this is both a good thing and a dangerous situation. It's good that she wants to move me through the process, but it's dangerous that I don't know what type of content she'll want to discuss.

While I'd love to knock this out today, tomorrow works better for my schedule. Assuming you'd like to spend about 60mins on the phone, I'm best to reach from 9AM PST and then after 1PM PST. I've got a rough Kindergarten dropoff/pickup schedule...

If you could send a call agenda or overview, that would help me prepare.

David,

Let’s do tomorrow at 9 am PST. IT should be nothing more than 45 minutes and we are just going to do a typical interview. I am also going to be looking for specific sales examples of a large account you have closed as well as understanding your specific sales process. What is the best number to reach you on?

RR

This does 3 things for me.
A) It reinforces my control. Instead of agreeing and doing the interview when she requested, I've made my own time for HER to accept.
B) I got her to tell me exactly what she wants to discuss so I can prepare mentally and make sure I've got some fresh notes about my sales history.
C) It demonstrates my professionalism through handling correspondence and scheduling.


So, our call was scheduled for this morning, but she ended up bumping it from 9Am to 9:45 and ultimately, we ran into another of her scheduled calls at 10:30 so we had to cut it short. She reiterated that her goal was to qualify/disqualify me as a candidate and once qualified, help me get through the process successfully. We didn't cover as much ground as I'd anticipated, but I was able to answer questions about my past with the original staffing firm I worked for, my recruiting business, and the details surrounding why I left my recent job. It was a bit satisfying that she was confused about my recent company "why would they do that, how are they expecting to close deals; over the phone?" She also wanted to reconfirm my salary, even though she began by asking "what were you earning at your last role?" I politely told her what I was seeking and the range I wanted to be within (again, she gave me the answer to this question on Monday so I merely reaffirmed it for her).

Sadly, we ran out of time so I didn't get to ask the questions I had for her. She said email is best, so I'll send those over later today. The next step in the process is a video interview that she'd like to conduct in the next 48hrs. Now I need to test my laptop camera. My only concern right now with this opportunity is that the process is moving both quickly and smoothly. In my experience most companies aren't able to find their way out of a paper bag in under 3mos, let alone make a hiring decision AND extend the offer. Well, the other concern is that I don't have another competing offer. Time to get my head out of my ass and get something else brewing. Ideally, you'd be choosing between several offers as opposed to waiting for one company to come through.

You've got this documentation thing down very well!

Thanks! It's a painfully simple layout and I'd make it more elaborate if it weren't just so damn useful as is.

At the last place I worked (division of United Technologies Corp), the director of engineering would get calls all the time from people wanting to apply, and he would politely give them the number for HR and not think anything else about it.

I missed this, sorry. There's one of two things happening. Either the Dir. of Engineering is really closed minded or the people calling weren't very good at a sales pitch. I can't think of anyone in a Director level role that wouldn't spend a few minutes talking with even a recent college grad. If they like that person's personality, they might still send them to HR, but there would be a higher level of ownership than "oh, you should call HR."

When making that call, you really should be saying things like:

"I'm trying to network with Directors in my industry"
"On the chance that any business associates of yours reach out to you asking if you know anyone looking, can I send you my resume?"
"do you know of any companies in the XX industry that might be hiring or ready to hire for someone with my background?"

[FISCAL]

Dave, are you still willing to sell the Recaro chair?

[PolskiHetzen]

So I have a question in regards to my job hunt.

I applied online to a large financial institution.
I get a call 2 days later around 9am. I don't pick up, but the recruiter from within the company e-mails me 5 minutes later saying he'd like to talk to me and let him know when I'm free. I try to call him, but no answer so I e-mail him back just a few minutes after saying can we do 4:30. I don't get a response, but I call at 4:30 anyway and leave a message.

What's my play now? It's the next day. I really want to at least talk to these guys.

[Diamond Dave]

What's my play now? It's the next day. I really want to at least talk to these guys.

You're in the machine now and at the recruiter's mercy (time, scheduling, interest). Just wait for a call and try not to sound overly excited or desperate; aloof and confident work best. If you don't hear from the recruiter in a week, then reach out to someone in a leadership role and "network" with them from the top down.