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    Thread: Greenbay just got robbed...

    1. Member
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      09-25-2012 09:59 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by SOAR View Post
      if Goodell doesn't give the refs whatever they want after this, we are all in for a verrrrrrrrrry loooooong season.
      Or a very short season. My NFL watching ended last night ... until the refs are back, that is.
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    2. Member TwoLitreVW's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 10:02 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      That video cuts off too soon. In fact, the last bit shows the Seahawk player going up
      at the same time as the Packer player. The Seahawk player was roughly to the side,
      but not behind, the Packer player.

      If the Seahawk player has both hands on the ball from beginning to end of the play,
      it's a tie and a TD.

      If the Seahawk player didn't have both hands at the beginning, but instead reached
      around and grabbed with both hands afterwards, then yes, I'd understand.

      Just because the Green Bay player, AFTER they went to ground, rolled away from
      the Seahawk player in an attempt to rip away the ball is no excuse.

      Or, let me put it another way: imagine if there was no Green Bay player involved.
      Did the Seahawk player go up, make the catch, and maintain possession after
      falling to the ground? YES. Regardless if some player rips the ball away after-the-fact,
      it's still a completed catch.

      I have seen the video over and over, and I can't find a replay in slow motion from
      a different angle. Anybody have a link?
      right. imagine if there was no Seahawk player involved. i can play that game, too.

      luckily, that's not how this works. and he did NOT make the catch.


      the video i posted doesn't show the other angles as they did over and over during the game replays. further, the officials even can't agree while on the field (which is why one waved it off and the other put his amrs up). even the ANNOUNCERS saw that it was an interception.


      the ball is caught by the GB player (he takes the pass in the chest), and Tate (seahawks) has a single hand on it in the air and on the way down.

      Tate never had possession of that ball. and that's why he was as stunned as the Packers were when it was declared a touchdown, and why everybody watching is screaming bloody murder.


      more angles, higher quality video, analyst discussion, and spelling out of the rule book:

      http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...headline_stack
      Last edited by TwoLitreVW; 09-25-2012 at 10:17 AM.
      shut your mouth. sh sh shut your mouth.

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      09-25-2012 10:32 AM #38
      Don't forget about the blatant shove in the back by Tate which should have negated any call regarding who caught the ball anyhow.

      I fully expect there to be all sorts of PI on a play like that, but that was so far ahead of the ball actually getting there that it was ridiculous.
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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      09-25-2012 11:05 AM #39
      http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/84...-150-250m-bets


      ESPN.com article has some interviews with Vegas sports book operators, and some estimate that, worldwide, that call shifted ~$250 Million in bets last night!


      Since about 70% of bets made were on GB, and without that touchdown call they would've won by 5, they would've covered the 3 1/2 points that most places gave them. I bet there were A LOT of angry people in the sports books last night....


      The NFL has to get in there and negotiate something with the regular refs. Public opinion should force them to do something.

    5. Senior Member SAPJetta's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 11:46 AM #40


      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

    6. Moderator SOAR's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 11:56 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by SAPJetta View Post
      Don't forget about the blatant shove in the back by Tate which should have negated any call regarding who caught the ball anyhow.
      You can argue sooo many terrible calls that would have changed that game in one direction or another, and resulted in the other team winning.

      IMO, You can't say Green Bay should have won. You can't say Seattle should have one. All you can say is that the refs absolutely destroyed that game beyond any recognition. I watched the game at a sports bar, filled with Seahawks fans. Everyone was laughing, and shrugging their shoulders by the 3rd quarter at calls both for and against the hawks. People just completely stopped taking the game seriously.

      It was a joke in every sense of the word. They made a handful of terrible calls to help GB get back into the game, then immediately followed by making a handful of terrible calls to help Seattle come back and win the game. Once all that started the game was ruined.
      Last edited by SOAR; 09-25-2012 at 12:02 PM.

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      09-25-2012 12:04 PM #42
      On back to back nights, in primetime match-ups with 2 of the league's premier teams (Pats & Packers), the game was effected/ruined/lost on terrible ref calls.

      Despicable.

      The replacement refs are just horrible at knowing, and being consistent with, holding and PI. They are just clueless. They ignore blatant stuff and call ticky-tack stuff, all at, seemingly, the worst possible times.

      They have zero control of the game and the players, coaches and now even the announcers have zero respect for them.

      After this last weekend, and the last 2 primetime games, if I'm the Refs Union I don't give a single other concession, they've already moved much more then the League has.

      Also, if the reports that are coming out that a number of these refs are Lingerie League rejects (I'm not kidding here) then Roger Goodell needs to resign. No hyperbole there, he should no longer have a job after this mess.
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      09-25-2012 12:05 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by SOAR View Post
      You can argue sooo many terrible calls that would have changed that game in one direction or another, and resulted in the other team winning.

      IMO, You can't say Green Bay should have won. You can't say Seattle should have one. All you can say is that the refs absolutely destroyed that game beyond any recognition. I watched the game at a sports bar, filled with Seahawks fans. Everyone was laughing, and shrugging their shoulders by the 3rd quarter at calls both for and against the hawks. People just completely stopped taking the game seriously.

      It was a joke in every sense of the word. They made a handful of terrible calls to help GB get back into the game, then immediately followed by making a handful of terrible calls to help Seattle come back and win the game. Once all that started the game was ruined.
      You're right, because I'm a man of logic

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      09-25-2012 12:20 PM #44
      I'm skipping NFL this weekend except maybe catch a few plays of the Giants and Jets game. I'm sick and tired of watching all the horrendous calls being dished out. Have these refs ever sit home and watch a game at all?

      A lot of these refs needs a vision and IQ test.

    10. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 12:42 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
      I'm skipping NFL this weekend except maybe catch a few plays of the Giants and Jets game. I'm sick and tired of watching all the horrendous calls being dished out. Have these refs ever sit home and watch a game at all?

      A lot of these refs needs a vision and IQ test.
      Player and coach reaction has been huge, I would expect the Players Union to be sending a serious message to Goodell this week.
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    11. 09-25-2012 12:54 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by FlashRedGLS1.8T View Post
      Defensive fan is defensive.
      Neither a hawks nor a Packers fan, but to be fair, Seattle has been very good to in three games so far. Before the season had started, I expected nothing from them, especially with a rookie QB. Three games in, Seattle has shown me they have an excellent defense team that can go up against any team in the league; and while offense understandably still needs some polishing to move to the next level, Wilson has been very poised and shows very little signs of being a rookie QB.

    12. 09-25-2012 12:57 PM #47
      Hmmm. On some of the other videos it's clearer that the defender had first total
      contact, and then the offensive player went for control. So, now I see the point.
      I guess if I were Green Bay (and I have family in Wisconsin and Wisconsin blood
      in my veins) I'd be wondering: why do we suck so much this season and why
      aren't we up over the damned Seahawks by 30 points at the end of the game????

      What I don't get is that the Refs REFUSE to bargain a key point: they're PART TIME
      employees. The NFL wants to treat them as part-time, but apparently the refs want
      to be considered full-time.

      And this then is all the fault of the NFL?

      Yeah, there's been a lot of bad calls. So, where are all the calls for the refs to
      stop being butt-heads and give up that particular bargaining point? Pressure
      should be applied to BOTH parties, not just one.

      Update: more fuel for the fire: NFL backs up decision not to overturn call....

      http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...awks-touchdown
      Last edited by adoniram7; 09-25-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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      09-25-2012 01:12 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by SOAR View Post
      You can argue sooo many terrible calls that would have changed that game in one direction or another, and resulted in the other team winning.

      IMO, You can't say Green Bay should have won. You can't say Seattle should have one. All you can say is that the refs absolutely destroyed that game beyond any recognition. I watched the game at a sports bar, filled with Seahawks fans. Everyone was laughing, and shrugging their shoulders by the 3rd quarter at calls both for and against the hawks. People just completely stopped taking the game seriously.

      It was a joke in every sense of the word. They made a handful of terrible calls to help GB get back into the game, then immediately followed by making a handful of terrible calls to help Seattle come back and win the game. Once all that started the game was ruined.
      I agree with you, but when the game comes down to a horrendous call on the very last play of the game, that is what is going to stick out to people.

      The officiating has sucked across the board for entire games without doubt. These guys are a complete joke. Totally unprepared to deal with the pace of the NFL.
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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      09-25-2012 01:13 PM #49
      http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...312_story.html

      There are two main points separating the owners and the refs. Each needs to give in on one point, and get this over with.

      Pension: NFL refs enjoy princely benefits for working just 16 game days a year. The league owners want to roll this back, shifting the current guaranteed pension plan to the same market-vulnerable 401(k) contributions that most employees have. The refs are screaming this would reduce the owners’ funding obligation by 60 percent. Well, yeah. On the other side of the argument is Andrew Brandt, a former NFL general manager and now analyst for ESPN, who questions “why anyone working a once-a-week job for less than half the year gets a pension at all.”

      Is there a compromise? Yes. Green, the head of the NFL refs association, says that veteran refs have made long-term retirement decisions based on the current plan. That’s understandable. They want their pension plan to be grandfathered for current officials. Give it to them — and let the league hire new ones under the proposed 401(k).

      Operations: The NFL says it wants to shift from a system of “entitlement” to one of “accountability” and be able to relieve an official who is performing badly with a quality replacement. It proposes hiring more refs, employing some of them full-time, and developing a “bench” so the quality of officiating improves. Incredibly, the refs are resisting this. Why? Because it’s in their best interests to remain a small organization, with the league totally reliant on each and every one of them. That way, they work more, and earn more.

      But it’s not in the best interest of the game, the players or the spectators. We’ve all seen officials who seem to blow calls repeatedly, or whose bellies grow until they labor to keep up with the play. One of the amnesiac fallacies growing out of the current hapless officiating by third-tier college replacements is that the regular NFL crews don’t screw up so badly. We’ve forgotten just how awful they can be. Their work is not great, and the league is right to try to restructure operations.

      One way the refs are digging in against this is by fighting over compensation. According to various analysts, the average official already makes $149,000, and the league claims to be offering pay increases of 5 to 11 percent. Now, that’s for moonlighting. Ninety percent of NFL officials have other full-time jobs. Let’s take an example. Say, Scott Green. He is a veteran official who started in 1991 and is regarded as a top back judge. He has appeared in three Super Bowls, also has been involved in some extremely poor and controversial calls.

      Want to know his real job? He has his own Washington D.C. lobbying firm.

      Know what he lobbies for? Safety issues.

      The refs need to give in. Take your grandfathered pension, a moderate pay raise, and accept the sensible changes in operations the league wants to make.

      The issue here is not whether the use of grossly under-qualified substitute officials makes the game slow, or unsightly, which it does, or whether there have been any competitive miscarriages, which there have.

      The main issue is the chorus from players and coaches that poor officiating has created an uncontrolled environment that’s going to get someone badly injured. The owners need to make a concession, and the refs do too. So the guys who do the real work can do it without the equivalent of falling rock and loose soil causing unnecessary harm.
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    15. 09-25-2012 02:46 PM #50
      Thanks. That helps to counterbalance the usual Peter King suck-up article, and
      similar pieces from other networks.
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    16. Moderator SOAR's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 03:10 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by SAPJetta View Post
      The officiating has sucked across the board for entire games without doubt. These guys are a complete joke. Totally unprepared to deal with the pace of the NFL.
      Word is coming out that some of the replacement officials were fired from the Lingerie Football League.

      Also, did anyone else notice that Phil Luckett is the the head of the replacement officials? Yes, the same guy who screwed up a coin toss. The same guy who knocked my Seahawks out of playoff contention in week 17 in 1998 by giving Vinny Testaverde a 4th down TD that wasn't even close.

      Is he trying to make amends?

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      09-25-2012 03:51 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by adoniram7 View Post
      Thanks. That helps to counterbalance the usual Peter King suck-up article, and
      similar pieces from other networks.
      With Labor disputes, there is always 2 sides to every story, and rarely does the public see all the gory details.

      I'm sure both sides have given and 'gotten... but the Refs Union has the upperhand now because the scabs have been dreadful and the team owners, tv dollars, fans, players... everyone... is calling for this to end.
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    18. Senior Member SAPJetta's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 04:35 PM #53
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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      09-25-2012 04:47 PM #54
      Another note: The booth review official who let the call stand, was Howard Slavin, who is not a replacement official, but a full time NFL booth review official.

      This is probably my Seahawk bias talking here... But the more I read about this, the more I think this was less of a bad call, and more of what is maybe a bogus rule. As I've seen multiple explanations that simultaneous catch is ruled when the players feet hit the ground and they both have possession. If the receiver has possession at that point, as well as the defender, then it is ruled simultaneous catch and goes to the receiver.

      Here's a gif...



      Shields certainly gets the ball at first. But as they come down, Tate gets both arms on it, and pulls it into his gut/chest. Even as he rolls back onto his butt, he still has two hands on the ball, and it's clutched to his gut/chest. After they both hit the ground. Jennings certainly gains overall control of the ball, but from what I'm hearing about the rule, it sounds like the play is over at that point.

      I'm not saying this was absolutely the correct call, but I don't think it's as obvious as I originally thought, and as the ESPN and the media make it out to be. In the end, Golden should have certainly been called for PI. But if we wanna go there... Kam Chancellor shouldn't have been called for his PI, and GB would have punted the ball instead of scoring a TD and gaining the lead.

      I stand by my first idea to just erase this game from the season and have each team play again at the end of the season.
      Last edited by SOAR; 09-25-2012 at 04:52 PM.

    20. Senior Member SAPJetta's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 04:55 PM #55
      Tate never got his right hand onto the ball until after they had touched the ground and were both falling. If they both had two hands firmly on the ball when they hit, possession should go to Tate, but he was still trying to get his right hand in there.
      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

    21. Moderator SOAR's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 05:01 PM #56
      That's exactly what happened. Watch this replay, His feet aren't down until Tate gets his right hand around the ball and has both of his feet on the ground. He maintains that until his ass hits the ground, and he rolls onto his back, at which point Jennings gets the upper hand.

      http://youtu.be/eWayQ6Y340k?t=1m4s

      Like I said, I ain't sayin it's the way it should be. But the strict interpretation of the rule makes this sound like it was arguably correct, and probably explains why the booth upheld it.
      Last edited by SOAR; 09-25-2012 at 05:23 PM.

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      09-25-2012 05:35 PM #57
      look closely at his Jennings right leg, as he is coming down Tate is rotating backwards and trying to get a hold of the ball, Jennings leg is frozen showing that it is on the ground

    23. Moderator SOAR's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 05:40 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by webbs2jzgte View Post
      look closely at his Jennings right leg, as he is coming down Tate is rotating backwards and trying to get a hold of the ball, Jennings leg is frozen showing that it is on the ground
      One leg on the ground means nothing. You cannot have possession of the ball until both feet are down. Jennings certainly gets both feet down at some point, but not until after Tate has both of his hands on the ball, and pulled in close to his chest, with his feet on the ground.

      Jennings second foot or knee don't touch the ground until Tate's feet hit the ground. Tate even falls back on his ass before Jennings is considered "down" with the ball.

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      09-25-2012 07:51 PM #59
      I just don't think anyone can reasonably argue that at the point that they hit the ground, Jennings clearly had full possession, and Tate had none.

      Whether Jennings had more or less is completely moot. There’s no such thing. It’s stupid to talk about. Either one of them did, both of them did, or neither of them did. Obviously it wasn’t “neither of them,” and “both of them” means TD. So the question is: can you tell me conclusively that Jennings had full possession of the ball at the point that he and Tate hit the ground?

    25. Senior Member SAPJetta's Avatar
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      09-25-2012 10:37 PM #60
      I preferred this one

      Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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      09-25-2012 10:53 PM #61
      Guys...it wasn't an easy call, even for the now-overrated-but-really-not-much-better regular officials. I'd say the odds were 50/50 that the regular officials would've blown the call, too.

      The replacements screwed up in how they went about it (conflicting calls by 2 refs standing right next to each other without even discussing the play). And then, how they managed the end of the game (allowing people to storm the field, letting teams leave before the PAT, not being at the play when the PAT was ready to happen, etc).

      That's what really showed inexperience. The call was just another bad call. The regular refs had PLENTY of those in their time.
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      09-26-2012 02:38 AM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Big M View Post
      Guys...it wasn't an easy call, even for the now-overrated-but-really-not-much-better regular officials. I'd say the odds were 50/50 that the regular officials would've blown the call, too.

      The replacements screwed up in how they went about it (conflicting calls by 2 refs standing right next to each other without even discussing the play). And then, how they managed the end of the game (allowing people to storm the field, letting teams leave before the PAT, not being at the play when the PAT was ready to happen, etc).

      That's what really showed inexperience. The call was just another bad call. The regular refs had PLENTY of those in their time.
      But would the regular refs have missed such a blatantly obvious offensive PI call on Tate? I mean the line judge was RIGHT THERE because he walks like four steps. The back judge has to come all the way over before he signals a touchback, indicating an interception. The line judge should've seen the shove because in the scheme of things, so much time had happened between the ball arriving and the penalty that wasn't called.

      If that call was made like it should've been, then whether or not it was a catch or interception would've been irrelevant. The pass would've been negated all together and the game would have been over. I don't think the rule of the game not ending on a penalty would've applied because Seattle was on offense and they were the ones that committed the penalty, leaving Green Bay to decline and end the game.
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      Nah. 10 mins later he was yelling in the cat's direction that he was going to call the police and have him arrested, then asking for cake.

    28. Moderator SOAR's Avatar
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      09-26-2012 03:48 AM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by SAV912 View Post
      The back judge has to come all the way over before he signals a touchback,
      Why do people keep saying this? He didn't signal touchback. Touchback signal is a one arm motion up and down. He motioned for time out. Why? Who knows. He probably didn't know what to do so he just started waving his hands in the air for help.

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      09-26-2012 04:52 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by SOAR View Post
      Why do people keep saying this? He didn't signal touchback. Touchback signal is a one arm motion up and down. He motioned for time out. Why? Who knows. He probably didn't know what to do so he just started waving his hands in the air for help.
      He didn't actually motion touchback, no. Not in the traditional sense. I guess it's just easier to say that his panicky flailing about looks enough like touchback or time out or make pancakes, but any of those would've been more appropriate for the situation than "oh..uh...touchdown?"
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      Quote Originally Posted by GolfTango
      Nah. 10 mins later he was yelling in the cat's direction that he was going to call the police and have him arrested, then asking for cake.

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      09-26-2012 05:20 AM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by SOAR View Post
      You can argue sooo many terrible calls that would have changed that game in one direction or another, and resulted in the other team winning.

      IMO, You can't say Green Bay should have won. You can't say Seattle should have one. All you can say is that the refs absolutely destroyed that game beyond any recognition. I watched the game at a sports bar, filled with Seahawks fans. Everyone was laughing, and shrugging their shoulders by the 3rd quarter at calls both for and against the hawks. People just completely stopped taking the game seriously.

      It was a joke in every sense of the word. They made a handful of terrible calls to help GB get back into the game, then immediately followed by making a handful of terrible calls to help Seattle come back and win the game. Once all that started the game was ruined.
      I think this sums it up best, the whole outcome of the game was changed so many times by the calls made or not made by the replacement refs. As a Seahawks fan I can admit my biases but this will just be another item heaped in the pile of the lack of respect this team gets, people seem to forget all those sacks and other legitimate events that happened in the game.

      Overall the NFL needs to get this resolved but as mentioned in the press with tens of thousands of tweets in minutes about stuff like this do you really think it is hurting the NFL. The owners will need to pressure the league to get this sorted and until they get very angry I cannot see anyone making a huge move, however I think the refs demands are not a massive deal and it really should have never come to this, but that is the world we live in.

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      09-26-2012 07:19 AM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by SAV912 View Post
      But would the regular refs have missed such a blatantly obvious offensive PI call on Tate?
      Probably.

      When was the last time you saw an offensive pass interference call on a hail Mary pass in the end zone to end the game? They're all over each other in those situations, but refs just let it play out. It's a hail Mary.
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    32. 09-26-2012 07:40 AM #67
      How about, "Why didn't Jennings knock the ball down?" On this play ALL defenders are taught to knock the ball down for exactly this type of reason.

      You leave the game in the hands of the Refs and you get what you deserve, in ANY sport.
      Last edited by adoniram7; 09-26-2012 at 07:56 AM.
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      09-26-2012 10:29 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by killerparties View Post
      I just don't think anyone can reasonably argue that at the point that they hit the ground, Jennings clearly had full possession, and Tate had none.

      Whether Jennings had more or less is completely moot. There’s no such thing. It’s stupid to talk about. Either one of them did, both of them did, or neither of them did. Obviously it wasn’t “neither of them,” and “both of them” means TD. So the question is: can you tell me conclusively that Jennings had full possession of the ball at the point that he and Tate hit the ground?
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    34. Moderator SOAR's Avatar
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      09-26-2012 01:25 PM #69
      Sounds like they got a deal with the refs. Could be back in stripes by the weekend.

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      09-26-2012 01:39 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by vandiesel View Post
      We see where you're from

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