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    Thread: MT: 2012-2013 Family sedan showdown

    1. Member P-Body's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 06:51 AM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      In the larger picture, for anyone doing primarily a lot of city driving, one of the two larger Prii should be a prime choice. I know they are not sedans, but I don't care. Anyone not buying a practical family car just based on form factor prejudices is, at the minimum, myopic.

      The Passat and Accord seem to be reasonable choices otherwise, although I would of course pick the TDI if a lot of highway/country/suburban traffic was involved (my FIL gets pretty bad highway mileage and fills up oil he keeps in the trunk every 2nd to 3rd tank - but that's a V6).

      I don't know what the comparative industry family sedan retention rate is, but everyone I know who at one point owned a Nissan or Mazda in this category has since moved on. This is also of course true for many prior Passat owners - but at least in the latter case there is lots of evidence that the main reason for such a move (annoyingly frequent repairs) seems to become a thing of the past.
      The Mazda has never been a big seller in this segment, but to comment that many Nissan buyers have moved on is pretty silly; if I'm not mistaken, it was the second or third highest selling midwife sedan in the US last year, despite being 5 years old.

      Basically, there's no evidence to support what you're saying, minus anecdotes.
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

    2. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:10 AM #77
      Nothing like a midsize sedan comparo to get TCL all fired up.

    3. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:15 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by P-Body View Post
      The Mazda has never been a big seller in this segment, but to comment that many Nissan buyers have moved on is pretty silly; if I'm not mistaken, it was the second or third highest selling midwife sedan in the US last year, despite being 5 years old.

      Basically, there's no evidence to support what you're saying, minus anecdotes.
      That's a pretty small segment, indeed.

      I admitted as much, basically asking for numbers. At least here in suburban NorCal, both family sedan Nissans and Mazdas seem to have become very rare, e.g., compared to Prii and Jettas and Passats. Perhaps elsewhere with different demographics things are quite different. I mean, I have seen two Fiat 500s on a single intersection at the same time, numerous times, now! I don't claim to live in Middle America.
      Aung San Suu Kyi

    4. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:18 AM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Nothing like a midsize sedan comparo to get TCL all fired up.
      We are all getting fatter.
      Aung San Suu Kyi

    5. 10-02-2012 07:34 AM #80
      My level of care in this segment couldn't possibly be any lower... I have to agree with Sporin... getting riled up over it is silly. I'd test drive the Fusion and the 6, and wouldn't even look at the others... why, you ask? They're the two best looking of the bunch by a long-shot, and all the objective numbers are close enough that... really... who cares about the nitpicking. Sometimes it's okay to have favorites... well... unless it's the Malibu... cuz then you're just dumb.
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mini driver

      Quote Originally Posted by JalopnikMatt View Post
      Yeah, I've bypassed y'all and go straight to r/cars.

    6. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:47 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      That's a pretty small segment, indeed.

      I admitted as much, basically asking for numbers. At least here in suburban NorCal, both family sedan Nissans and Mazdas seem to have become very rare, e.g., compared to Prii and Jettas and Passats. Perhaps elsewhere with different demographics things are quite different. I mean, I have seen two Fiat 500s on a single intersection at the same time, numerous times, now! I don't claim to live in Middle America.

      Hmm. I was in NorCal pretty recently and I saw plenty of Altimas. All over San Francisco (those could of been rentals) but even all the way up in Danville. I have yet to go somewhere and notice there's a dearth of Nissans. The Murano is a pretty strong contender in the mid-size SUV market as well.
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

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      10-02-2012 07:47 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by cougar View Post
      My level of care in this segment couldn't possibly be any lower... I have to agree with Sporin... getting riled up over it is silly. I'd test drive the Fusion and the 6, and wouldn't even look at the others... why, you ask? They're the two best looking of the bunch by a long-shot, and all the objective numbers are close enough that... really... who cares about the nitpicking. Sometimes it's okay to have favorites... well... unless it's the Malibu... cuz then you're just dumb.
      So, in order of Dumb to Righteous Choices for Mid-Sized Sedans (According to TCL):

      Dumbest:Malibu
      Galant
      Avenger
      200
      Camry
      Accord
      Altima
      Regal
      Legacy
      Optima
      Sonata
      Fusion (but preferably with Euro "Mondeo" badging)
      The upcoming Mazda6 that isn't even for sale yet anywhere in the world
      Passat
      Most Righteous: Kizashi

    8. 10-02-2012 07:52 AM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      So, in order of Dumb to Righteous Choices for Mid-Sized Sedans (According to TCL):
      So now I speak for all of TCL? Neat! So, wait... why aren't all you guys driving Mustangs?

      Anyway, I do hope my comments about the Malibu were taken as sarcasm as intended... if someone likes the Malibu the best out of this group, I wouldn't shy them away from purchasing one.
      Bowtie wearing, tattooed, Mini driver

      Quote Originally Posted by JalopnikMatt View Post
      Yeah, I've bypassed y'all and go straight to r/cars.

    9. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
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      10-02-2012 08:22 AM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      So, in order of Dumb to Righteous Choices for Mid-Sized Sedans (According to TCL):

      Dumbest:Malibu
      Galant
      Avenger
      200
      Camry
      Accord
      Altima
      Regal
      Legacy
      Optima
      Sonata
      Fusion (but preferably with Euro "Mondeo" badging)
      The upcoming Mazda6 that isn't even for sale yet anywhere in the world
      Passat
      Most Righteous: Kizashi
      You know what would be awesome? If somebody wrote up a fake comparison test, with The Car Lounge as a byline. I'd totally do it if I weren't trying to move and start a new job in the next week.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
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      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

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      10-02-2012 08:40 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      You know what would be awesome? If somebody wrote up a fake comparison test, with The Car Lounge as a byline. I'd totally do it if I weren't trying to move and start a new job in the next week.
      Such a road test would consist of mostly very old vehicles, because anything new is by nature too heavy, too sucky, or without soul. While we tend to hate and not buy new vehicles, cars that are going to be available in the near future are automatically better than anything new or old.

      I think a TCL Shoot Out would include:

      1998 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0
      Honda S2000
      1st Gen Miata
      VW Mk. 1-4 GTI
      1998 Honda Accord and Civic
      Any diesel powered manual trans wagon
      Any Ford that is only available in the UK
      The next all new sedan/wagon from Mazda or Subaru
      The often promised yet never delivered RWD flagship from Cadillac

    11. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
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      10-02-2012 08:45 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Such a road test would consist of mostly very old vehicles, because anything new is by nature too heavy, too sucky, or without soul. While we tend to hate and not buy new vehicles, cars that are going to be available in the near future are automatically better than anything new or old.
      I'm thinking the winner would be a B4 Passat.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

    12. Member clutchrider's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 09:32 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by BostonB6 View Post
      No, That's not true. The whole Malibu size thing is way overblown IMHO. Here are the #'s for Malibu/Cruze/Accord for comparison:

      Rear Hip Room 54.3/52.4/54.7
      Rear Head Room 37.5/37.9/37.5
      Rear Leg Room 36.8/35.4/38.5
      Rear Shoulder Room 57.1/53.9/56.5

      Here's a pic of Malibu's rear seat

      Holy Crap!

      Even my GLI has more room than the Malibu!



      and so you don't think I moved the seat, here is the same position it was in from that pic.


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      10-02-2012 09:46 AM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by clutchrider View Post
      Holy Crap!

      Even my GLI has more room than the Malibu!



      and so you don't think I moved the seat, here is the same position it was in from that pic.

      Making a judgement on actual space from photographs is not exactly scientific.

      Give us some dimensions or put some sort of calibrated human analogue in both cars and then retake the photos to give us some true spacial relationship information.

    14. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 09:47 AM #89
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      I know TCL'ers have nothing but time and spousal-patience on hand but if Team Sporin wanted a new midsizer right now, we'd probably go drive the new Accord (Sport/Manual) and if we both liked it, that's what we'd get. The others fall into a black hole of no local dealer/bad local dealer/never liked/ and not compelled to bother checking out.

    15. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 09:52 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      I know TCL'ers have nothing but time and spousal-patience on hand but if Team Sporin wanted a new midsizer right now, we'd probably go drive the new Accord (Sport/Manual) and if we both liked it, that's what we'd get. The others fall into a black hole of no local dealer/bad local dealer/never liked/ and not compelled to bother checking out.
      This is why my jimmies get rustled at "Camcord"

      No one I know who drives any particular mid-sizer was looking at multiple mid-sizers. From the start, they wanted what they got.

    16. 10-02-2012 10:09 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      [/I]
      I think a lot of camry buyers are repeat buyers, a friend of mine has like 4 in his household all different generations

    17. Member clutchrider's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 10:17 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Making a judgement on actual space from photographs is not exactly scientific.

      Give us some dimensions or put some sort of calibrated human analogue in both cars and then retake the photos to give us some true spacial relationship information.
      Malibu vs. Jetta
      Rear Leg Room 36.8/38.2

      And even the Cruze as shown before has more rear leg room. I'm actually a little shocked since you would think a more sizable family sedan would have more room throughout. Seems that is not the case though.

    18. Member BLK9GEN's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 10:37 AM #93
      All this bitching about rear leg room is a bit overblown. I'm 6'1" and fit in the back of my Sonata. Sure, there isn't ample space, but I fit without any real issues and it only has 34.6" of rear leg room.
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      As for the rest of the VW line up we all know they are sports cars dressed up as commuter cars. A fact that explains the enormous worldwide success of their fine automobiles.

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      10-02-2012 10:42 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by clutchrider View Post
      Malibu vs. Jetta
      Rear Leg Room 36.8/38.2

      And even the Cruze as shown before has more rear leg room.
      MT says 35.4 for the Cruze rear leg room

    20. Member sortadelux's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 11:03 AM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      I know TCL'ers have nothing but time and spousal-patience on hand but if Team Sporin wanted a new midsizer right now, we'd probably go drive the new Accord (Sport/Manual) and if we both liked it, that's what we'd get. The others fall into a black hole of no local dealer/bad local dealer/never liked/ and not compelled to bother checking out.
      I'd probably do exactly what my wife did when she shopped for her compact. Drive them all starting with what looks the best. We have enough local dealers (with in 30mi) to drive every brand out there so I dont mind lots of seat time. Nothing make the salesmen happier than telling them you want to test fit two child seats for the 10 minute test drive.
      "Never attribute to maliciousness that which can be attributed to stupidity."

    21. Member P-Body's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 11:29 AM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      This is why my jimmies get rustled at "Camcord"

      No one I know who drives any particular mid-sizer was looking at multiple mid-sizers. From the start, they wanted what they got.
      I think most people try a pretty good sampling of them, but have a general idea of what 2 or 3 they want before they start shopping.

      That's what we did at least.
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

    22. Member P-Body's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 11:30 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      That's a pretty small segment, indeed.

      I admitted as much, basically asking for numbers. At least here in suburban NorCal, both family sedan Nissans and Mazdas seem to have become very rare, e.g., compared to Prii and Jettas and Passats. Perhaps elsewhere with different demographics things are quite different. I mean, I have seen two Fiat 500s on a single intersection at the same time, numerous times, now! I don't claim to live in Middle America.
      Damned iPad autocorrect!
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

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      10-02-2012 12:14 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0_Mazda View Post
      MT says 35.4 for the Cruze rear leg room
      Yeah I screwed that one up, was looking at a different car. It's been a crazy morning, got some random scam call from someone claiming to be from fidelity wanting me to fax them my wire information to complete a transfer.

    24. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 12:24 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by Aw614 View Post
      I think a lot of camry buyers are repeat buyers, a friend of mine has like 4 in his household all different generations
      Yeah, I've owned a number of Hondas (multiple Accords and Civics) and always was very happy with them. Add in a great local dealer and some it's unlikely I'd bother to look much further.

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      10-02-2012 12:46 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by Aw614 View Post
      I think a lot of camry buyers are repeat buyers, a friend of mine has like 4 in his household all different generations
      Sounds like my in-laws. They'ved owned nothing but Toyotas for the past two decades:

      '89 Corolla Wagon
      '96 Camry LE
      '01 Camry LE
      '05 Camry LE
      '10 Camry LE

      My MiL always gets the newest one, and my FiL takes her old one; so she's now driving the '10 and he's dring her old '05.
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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