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    Thread: MT: 2012-2013 Family sedan showdown

    1. Member curvedinfinity's Avatar
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      10-01-2012 10:15 PM #71
      FWIW, the inside of the Malibu didn't do it for me like a lot of the newer GM cars too. Too bad GM. The Cruze was a great recipe, but it sounds like the Malibu did not follow in the same footsteps.
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    2. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-01-2012 10:17 PM #72
      I really liked the Malibu interior. Tons of storage...something like 7 compartments w/in reach of the driver.

    3. Member sforsancho's Avatar
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      10-01-2012 10:51 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
      The 1.6 Ecotoy looks really pathetic.
      I wouldn't say that. It is maybe not as effective a fuel-saving technology as the CVT transmission, but Ford bet on Ecoboost and is sticking with it. Both technologies will be an additional expense for the manufacturer, and both increase fuel economy. No company is forced to do both to comply with current CAFE regulations.

      There are other factors at play here - Ford could have specced variables that come at the cost of fuel economy, like higher rolling resistance tires for better handling and heavier weight for more NVH reduction (or just the use of cheaper, heavier materials) - that make a direct comparison ineffective.

      PS Making up nicknames like that make you seem very, very biased.
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      10-02-2012 03:50 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
      It is the revenge of the NA engines. The 1.6 Ecotoy looks really pathetic. It does nothing that NA engines won't do better. Would be even worse if it was automatic.

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    5. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 06:06 AM #75
      In the larger picture, for anyone doing primarily a lot of city driving, one of the two larger Prii should be a prime choice. I know they are not sedans, but I don't care. Anyone not buying a practical family car just based on form factor prejudices is, at the minimum, myopic.

      The Passat and Accord seem to be reasonable choices otherwise, although I would of course pick the TDI if a lot of highway/country/suburban traffic was involved (my FIL gets pretty bad highway mileage and fills up oil he keeps in the trunk every 2nd to 3rd tank - but that's a V6).

      I don't know what the comparative industry family sedan retention rate is, but everyone I know who at one point owned a Nissan or Mazda in this category has since moved on. This is also of course true for many prior Passat owners - but at least in the latter case there is lots of evidence that the main reason for such a move (annoyingly frequent repairs) seems to become a thing of the past. We'll have to see how the 1.8T does; generally speaking, this is very mature technology for VW/Audi by now, if it were not for the exhaust cooling, mixed injection, and a few other items. Not sure I would be ready to gamble on that in the first couple of years...
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    6. Member P-Body's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 06:51 AM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      In the larger picture, for anyone doing primarily a lot of city driving, one of the two larger Prii should be a prime choice. I know they are not sedans, but I don't care. Anyone not buying a practical family car just based on form factor prejudices is, at the minimum, myopic.

      The Passat and Accord seem to be reasonable choices otherwise, although I would of course pick the TDI if a lot of highway/country/suburban traffic was involved (my FIL gets pretty bad highway mileage and fills up oil he keeps in the trunk every 2nd to 3rd tank - but that's a V6).

      I don't know what the comparative industry family sedan retention rate is, but everyone I know who at one point owned a Nissan or Mazda in this category has since moved on. This is also of course true for many prior Passat owners - but at least in the latter case there is lots of evidence that the main reason for such a move (annoyingly frequent repairs) seems to become a thing of the past.
      The Mazda has never been a big seller in this segment, but to comment that many Nissan buyers have moved on is pretty silly; if I'm not mistaken, it was the second or third highest selling midwife sedan in the US last year, despite being 5 years old.

      Basically, there's no evidence to support what you're saying, minus anecdotes.
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

    7. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:10 AM #77
      Nothing like a midsize sedan comparo to get TCL all fired up.
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    8. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:15 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by P-Body View Post
      The Mazda has never been a big seller in this segment, but to comment that many Nissan buyers have moved on is pretty silly; if I'm not mistaken, it was the second or third highest selling midwife sedan in the US last year, despite being 5 years old.

      Basically, there's no evidence to support what you're saying, minus anecdotes.
      That's a pretty small segment, indeed.

      I admitted as much, basically asking for numbers. At least here in suburban NorCal, both family sedan Nissans and Mazdas seem to have become very rare, e.g., compared to Prii and Jettas and Passats. Perhaps elsewhere with different demographics things are quite different. I mean, I have seen two Fiat 500s on a single intersection at the same time, numerous times, now! I don't claim to live in Middle America.
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    9. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:18 AM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Nothing like a midsize sedan comparo to get TCL all fired up.
      We are all getting fatter.
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    10. 10-02-2012 07:34 AM #80
      My level of care in this segment couldn't possibly be any lower... I have to agree with Sporin... getting riled up over it is silly. I'd test drive the Fusion and the 6, and wouldn't even look at the others... why, you ask? They're the two best looking of the bunch by a long-shot, and all the objective numbers are close enough that... really... who cares about the nitpicking. Sometimes it's okay to have favorites... well... unless it's the Malibu... cuz then you're just dumb.
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    11. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 07:47 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      That's a pretty small segment, indeed.

      I admitted as much, basically asking for numbers. At least here in suburban NorCal, both family sedan Nissans and Mazdas seem to have become very rare, e.g., compared to Prii and Jettas and Passats. Perhaps elsewhere with different demographics things are quite different. I mean, I have seen two Fiat 500s on a single intersection at the same time, numerous times, now! I don't claim to live in Middle America.

      Hmm. I was in NorCal pretty recently and I saw plenty of Altimas. All over San Francisco (those could of been rentals) but even all the way up in Danville. I have yet to go somewhere and notice there's a dearth of Nissans. The Murano is a pretty strong contender in the mid-size SUV market as well.
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      10-02-2012 07:47 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by cougar View Post
      My level of care in this segment couldn't possibly be any lower... I have to agree with Sporin... getting riled up over it is silly. I'd test drive the Fusion and the 6, and wouldn't even look at the others... why, you ask? They're the two best looking of the bunch by a long-shot, and all the objective numbers are close enough that... really... who cares about the nitpicking. Sometimes it's okay to have favorites... well... unless it's the Malibu... cuz then you're just dumb.
      So, in order of Dumb to Righteous Choices for Mid-Sized Sedans (According to TCL):

      Dumbest:Malibu
      Galant
      Avenger
      200
      Camry
      Accord
      Altima
      Regal
      Legacy
      Optima
      Sonata
      Fusion (but preferably with Euro "Mondeo" badging)
      The upcoming Mazda6 that isn't even for sale yet anywhere in the world
      Passat
      Most Righteous: Kizashi

    13. 10-02-2012 07:52 AM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      So, in order of Dumb to Righteous Choices for Mid-Sized Sedans (According to TCL):
      So now I speak for all of TCL? Neat! So, wait... why aren't all you guys driving Mustangs?

      Anyway, I do hope my comments about the Malibu were taken as sarcasm as intended... if someone likes the Malibu the best out of this group, I wouldn't shy them away from purchasing one.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I was more annoyed with the implication of being a Browns fan.

    14. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
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      10-02-2012 08:22 AM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      So, in order of Dumb to Righteous Choices for Mid-Sized Sedans (According to TCL):

      Dumbest:Malibu
      Galant
      Avenger
      200
      Camry
      Accord
      Altima
      Regal
      Legacy
      Optima
      Sonata
      Fusion (but preferably with Euro "Mondeo" badging)
      The upcoming Mazda6 that isn't even for sale yet anywhere in the world
      Passat
      Most Righteous: Kizashi
      You know what would be awesome? If somebody wrote up a fake comparison test, with The Car Lounge as a byline. I'd totally do it if I weren't trying to move and start a new job in the next week.
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      10-02-2012 08:40 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      You know what would be awesome? If somebody wrote up a fake comparison test, with The Car Lounge as a byline. I'd totally do it if I weren't trying to move and start a new job in the next week.
      Such a road test would consist of mostly very old vehicles, because anything new is by nature too heavy, too sucky, or without soul. While we tend to hate and not buy new vehicles, cars that are going to be available in the near future are automatically better than anything new or old.

      I think a TCL Shoot Out would include:

      1998 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4.0
      Honda S2000
      1st Gen Miata
      VW Mk. 1-4 GTI
      1998 Honda Accord and Civic
      Any diesel powered manual trans wagon
      Any Ford that is only available in the UK
      The next all new sedan/wagon from Mazda or Subaru
      The often promised yet never delivered RWD flagship from Cadillac

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      10-02-2012 08:45 AM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Such a road test would consist of mostly very old vehicles, because anything new is by nature too heavy, too sucky, or without soul. While we tend to hate and not buy new vehicles, cars that are going to be available in the near future are automatically better than anything new or old.
      I'm thinking the winner would be a B4 Passat.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Man View Post
      The Terror Grill: Part restaurant, part amusement attraction, part gladiator arena, all profit.
      ARE YOU NOT SATIATED?!?!?!

    17. Member clutchrider's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 09:32 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by BostonB6 View Post
      No, That's not true. The whole Malibu size thing is way overblown IMHO. Here are the #'s for Malibu/Cruze/Accord for comparison:

      Rear Hip Room 54.3/52.4/54.7
      Rear Head Room 37.5/37.9/37.5
      Rear Leg Room 36.8/35.4/38.5
      Rear Shoulder Room 57.1/53.9/56.5

      Here's a pic of Malibu's rear seat

      Holy Crap!

      Even my GLI has more room than the Malibu!



      and so you don't think I moved the seat, here is the same position it was in from that pic.


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      10-02-2012 09:46 AM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by clutchrider View Post
      Holy Crap!

      Even my GLI has more room than the Malibu!



      and so you don't think I moved the seat, here is the same position it was in from that pic.

      Making a judgement on actual space from photographs is not exactly scientific.

      Give us some dimensions or put some sort of calibrated human analogue in both cars and then retake the photos to give us some true spacial relationship information.

    19. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 09:47 AM #89
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      I know TCL'ers have nothing but time and spousal-patience on hand but if Team Sporin wanted a new midsizer right now, we'd probably go drive the new Accord (Sport/Manual) and if we both liked it, that's what we'd get. The others fall into a black hole of no local dealer/bad local dealer/never liked/ and not compelled to bother checking out.
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    20. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 09:52 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      I know TCL'ers have nothing but time and spousal-patience on hand but if Team Sporin wanted a new midsizer right now, we'd probably go drive the new Accord (Sport/Manual) and if we both liked it, that's what we'd get. The others fall into a black hole of no local dealer/bad local dealer/never liked/ and not compelled to bother checking out.
      This is why my jimmies get rustled at "Camcord"

      No one I know who drives any particular mid-sizer was looking at multiple mid-sizers. From the start, they wanted what they got.

    21. 10-02-2012 10:09 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      [/I]
      I think a lot of camry buyers are repeat buyers, a friend of mine has like 4 in his household all different generations

    22. Member clutchrider's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 10:17 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Making a judgement on actual space from photographs is not exactly scientific.

      Give us some dimensions or put some sort of calibrated human analogue in both cars and then retake the photos to give us some true spacial relationship information.
      Malibu vs. Jetta
      Rear Leg Room 36.8/38.2

      And even the Cruze as shown before has more rear leg room. I'm actually a little shocked since you would think a more sizable family sedan would have more room throughout. Seems that is not the case though.

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      10-02-2012 10:37 AM #93
      All this bitching about rear leg room is a bit overblown. I'm 6'1" and fit in the back of my Sonata. Sure, there isn't ample space, but I fit without any real issues and it only has 34.6" of rear leg room.
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      10-02-2012 10:42 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by clutchrider View Post
      Malibu vs. Jetta
      Rear Leg Room 36.8/38.2

      And even the Cruze as shown before has more rear leg room.
      MT says 35.4 for the Cruze rear leg room

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      10-02-2012 11:03 AM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I wonder what the brand-jumping rate is on midsize sedans? I bet most folks buy within 1 or maybe 2 brands that they are comfortable with and have owned before and don't even consider the rest (I'm talking about real, new car buyers, not TCL'ers looking for used cars "someday")

      I know TCL'ers have nothing but time and spousal-patience on hand but if Team Sporin wanted a new midsizer right now, we'd probably go drive the new Accord (Sport/Manual) and if we both liked it, that's what we'd get. The others fall into a black hole of no local dealer/bad local dealer/never liked/ and not compelled to bother checking out.
      I'd probably do exactly what my wife did when she shopped for her compact. Drive them all starting with what looks the best. We have enough local dealers (with in 30mi) to drive every brand out there so I dont mind lots of seat time. Nothing make the salesmen happier than telling them you want to test fit two child seats for the 10 minute test drive.
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      10-02-2012 11:29 AM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      This is why my jimmies get rustled at "Camcord"

      No one I know who drives any particular mid-sizer was looking at multiple mid-sizers. From the start, they wanted what they got.
      I think most people try a pretty good sampling of them, but have a general idea of what 2 or 3 they want before they start shopping.

      That's what we did at least.
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

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      10-02-2012 11:30 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      That's a pretty small segment, indeed.

      I admitted as much, basically asking for numbers. At least here in suburban NorCal, both family sedan Nissans and Mazdas seem to have become very rare, e.g., compared to Prii and Jettas and Passats. Perhaps elsewhere with different demographics things are quite different. I mean, I have seen two Fiat 500s on a single intersection at the same time, numerous times, now! I don't claim to live in Middle America.
      Damned iPad autocorrect!
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

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      10-02-2012 12:14 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0_Mazda View Post
      MT says 35.4 for the Cruze rear leg room
      Yeah I screwed that one up, was looking at a different car. It's been a crazy morning, got some random scam call from someone claiming to be from fidelity wanting me to fax them my wire information to complete a transfer.

    29. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 12:24 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by Aw614 View Post
      I think a lot of camry buyers are repeat buyers, a friend of mine has like 4 in his household all different generations
      Yeah, I've owned a number of Hondas (multiple Accords and Civics) and always was very happy with them. Add in a great local dealer and some it's unlikely I'd bother to look much further.
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      10-02-2012 12:46 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by Aw614 View Post
      I think a lot of camry buyers are repeat buyers, a friend of mine has like 4 in his household all different generations
      Sounds like my in-laws. They'ved owned nothing but Toyotas for the past two decades:

      '89 Corolla Wagon
      '96 Camry LE
      '01 Camry LE
      '05 Camry LE
      '10 Camry LE

      My MiL always gets the newest one, and my FiL takes her old one; so she's now driving the '10 and he's dring her old '05.
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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      10-02-2012 12:53 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      I find it appalling just how much GM ****ed up the Malibu and its intro. I usually defend GM and praise it when it does well, but the Malibu is a dud. Introducing the Eco early was dumb, making it this small was dumb, trying to maintain both it and the Impala was dumb...they just completely ****ed it this this time around. It doesn't even look that great - in person, the tails look big and cheap and the front end is too tall.
      Wait wut? Keeping the Impala was dumb?!?! The Malibu/Impala combo sells more than any other midsize/fullsize combo several months out of the year. Even subtracting fleet sales and the Impala sells better than most "fullsize" sedans.

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      10-02-2012 12:57 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by jwaters943 View Post
      All this bitching about rear leg room is a bit overblown. I'm 6'1" and fit in the back of my Sonata. Sure, there isn't ample space, but I fit without any real issues and it only has 34.6" of rear leg room.
      So true. Honestly, smaller kids are going to riding in the backseat most of the time, other than the occasional jaunts with coworkers out to lunch. If your kids are too big for the back of a Malibu, the extra two inches of legroom in the Passat probably won't matter much. A full sized sedan or SUV might be a better choice for hauling around 6ft+ kids.

      It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.

    33. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
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      10-02-2012 01:05 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      Wait wut? Keeping the Impala was dumb?!?! The Malibu/Impala combo sells more than any other midsize/fullsize combo several months out of the year. Even subtracting fleet sales and the Impala sells better than most "fullsize" sedans.
      One vehicle, straddling the difference between the Malibu and Impala's sizes (say, like the Passat), would do a better job of hitting the circa-2012 midsize sedan sweet spot than both of them do together. I wouldn't have killed the Impala, though. The Impala should have been a RWD halo pimpmobile, and the Malibu should have taken over the FWD basic sedan role that it currently shares.

      I think GM ****ed up by trying to differentiate the Malibu that much from the Impala sizewise, and I think they did that to try to sell it in global markets.
      IPRO Meat-Director and High Minister of Terror-Grilling

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    34. Swallow Doretti
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      10-02-2012 01:25 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.
      Well, the Malibu isn't exactly smaller than the car it replaces--it's roughly the same footprint. The bigger problem is weight--the new 'Bu is a full 200 lbs heavier than the next-heaviest Accord, and roughly 350 lbs more than some of the class featherweights like the Altima. All that extra weight hurts fuel economy and handling, and it's probably one of GM's biggest issues across model ranges right now (a fully-loaded Cruze is roughly the same weight as an Altima).

    35. Member vdub10golf's Avatar
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      '12 Beetle Turbo
      10-02-2012 01:26 PM #105
      My vote would've been for the Fusion. The Passat is not bad either but it's just too bland.

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