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    Thread: MT: 2012-2013 Family sedan showdown

    1. Member GTRaavv's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 12:53 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      I find it appalling just how much GM ****ed up the Malibu and its intro. I usually defend GM and praise it when it does well, but the Malibu is a dud. Introducing the Eco early was dumb, making it this small was dumb, trying to maintain both it and the Impala was dumb...they just completely ****ed it this this time around. It doesn't even look that great - in person, the tails look big and cheap and the front end is too tall.
      Wait wut? Keeping the Impala was dumb?!?! The Malibu/Impala combo sells more than any other midsize/fullsize combo several months out of the year. Even subtracting fleet sales and the Impala sells better than most "fullsize" sedans.

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      10-02-2012 12:57 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by jwaters943 View Post
      All this bitching about rear leg room is a bit overblown. I'm 6'1" and fit in the back of my Sonata. Sure, there isn't ample space, but I fit without any real issues and it only has 34.6" of rear leg room.
      So true. Honestly, smaller kids are going to riding in the backseat most of the time, other than the occasional jaunts with coworkers out to lunch. If your kids are too big for the back of a Malibu, the extra two inches of legroom in the Passat probably won't matter much. A full sized sedan or SUV might be a better choice for hauling around 6ft+ kids.

      It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.

    3. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
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      10-02-2012 01:05 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      Wait wut? Keeping the Impala was dumb?!?! The Malibu/Impala combo sells more than any other midsize/fullsize combo several months out of the year. Even subtracting fleet sales and the Impala sells better than most "fullsize" sedans.
      One vehicle, straddling the difference between the Malibu and Impala's sizes (say, like the Passat), would do a better job of hitting the circa-2012 midsize sedan sweet spot than both of them do together. I wouldn't have killed the Impala, though. The Impala should have been a RWD halo pimpmobile, and the Malibu should have taken over the FWD basic sedan role that it currently shares.

      I think GM ****ed up by trying to differentiate the Malibu that much from the Impala sizewise, and I think they did that to try to sell it in global markets.
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      10-02-2012 01:25 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.
      Well, the Malibu isn't exactly smaller than the car it replaces--it's roughly the same footprint. The bigger problem is weight--the new 'Bu is a full 200 lbs heavier than the next-heaviest Accord, and roughly 350 lbs more than some of the class featherweights like the Altima. All that extra weight hurts fuel economy and handling, and it's probably one of GM's biggest issues across model ranges right now (a fully-loaded Cruze is roughly the same weight as an Altima).

    5. Member vdub10golf's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 01:26 PM #105
      My vote would've been for the Fusion. The Passat is not bad either but it's just too bland.

    6. Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 01:42 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.
      Errr, the new Malibu is only a half an inch shorter than the old one, but took a 4" cut to the wheelbase impacting interior room. So it's not like the new one is somehow a much smaller vehicle on the outside.

      That being said, my supposedly has 34.6" of rear legroom, but the back seat is still cavernous (I'm 5'11):

      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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    7. 10-02-2012 01:55 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by InfinitiG View Post
      I have to agree, especially after reading the article. Despite not liking the CVT, they also praised and really liked the Altima's ride and handling. It was the quickest and got the best MPGs. They loved the interior and said it had the best mix of gadgets/technology and user-friendliness (hi Ford).t.
      CVT is great with the V6.....really very similar to a normal auto.

    8. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 02:03 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.
      That's because companies like Honda can make their cars smaller AND lighter, while simultaneously increasing interior room.

    9. Member GTRaavv's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 02:09 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      One vehicle, straddling the difference between the Malibu and Impala's sizes (say, like the Passat), would do a better job of hitting the circa-2012 midsize sedan sweet spot than both of them do together. I wouldn't have killed the Impala, though. The Impala should have been a RWD halo pimpmobile, and the Malibu should have taken over the FWD basic sedan role that it currently shares.
      But plenty of other brands have a FWD fullsize flagship sedan to sit on top of their midsize sedan. Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia - they all follow this same pattern. Only Chrysler has a RWD halo pimpmobile, which doesn't sell in nearly the same ballpark as the Impala. And Chevy is getting a RWD halo pimpmobile as well - 2014 SS.

      I think GM ****ed up by trying to differentiate the Malibu that much from the Impala sizewise, and I think they did that to try to sell it in global markets.
      I agree the Malibu should be on the LWB Epsilon platform rather than SWB without a doubt. But you say "****ed up" like they had a choice. Unfortunately GM had to make the Opel-developed Epsilon platform work for 2 sedans. It wasn't like they had a huge pile of cash on hand to develop a new platform and could do so in the time given. And unfortunately, the Epsilon 2 platform is not only heavy as hell, but the SWB version is too small for American paper comparison tests. They kinda of made the best out of a bad situation, and at least were able to add some length to the Impala to address the LaCrosse trunk size issues.

      However, GM might end up lucking out in this situation and not have to take a wash until a redesign in 2018. While straddling classes has long been a GM weakness, the midsize sedan class is starting to play second fiddle to the compact sedan class in the US and maybe a shakeup could be in store. By all accounts so far the 2014 Impala looks to be a real solid effort. Having a flashier Impala take over retail sales from higher optioned Malibus might work this time around, especially since the Impala will be equipped with a 4 cyclinder. Shift Impala fleet sales to the Malibu, where rear seat size won't be such a "deal breaker" and the 2 sedans could net a very healthy amount of sales.

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      10-02-2012 02:28 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      That's because companies like Honda can make their cars smaller AND lighter, while simultaneously increasing interior room.
      Except, in 2008, the new accord didn't get smaller on the outside to increase interior room.... the accord went huge
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    11. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 03:07 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by BsickPassat View Post
      Except, in 2008, the new accord didn't get smaller on the outside to increase interior room.... the accord went huge
      That was 2008. The 2013 car is shorter, lighter, and has more interior room than the 2008-12 car.

      What also happened was that in 2008 the Accord Coupe and sedan diverged. The 7th-gen Accord coupe has a larger trunk and more passenger volume than the 8th-gen. The coupe stood pat while the sedan grew, in order to better diversify.

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      10-02-2012 03:37 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      That was 2008. The 2013 car is shorter, lighter, and has more interior room than the 2008-12 car.

      What also happened was that in 2008 the Accord Coupe and sedan diverged. The 7th-gen Accord coupe has a larger trunk and more passenger volume than the 8th-gen. The coupe stood pat while the sedan grew, in order to better diversify.
      the 2013, compared to 2012, gets:
      more trunk space
      less front head room
      less front hip room
      more front shoulder room
      less rear head room
      more rear hip room
      more rear leg room

      Not exactly supporting the claim you made.

      The smaller exterior dimensioned Camry is a little tighter up front, but provides a little larger space in the back....

      Technically, the smaller Camry, when it was "redesigned" kept virtually the same exterior dimensions while increasing space inside, mostly to the rear passenger compartment.

      So... honda has some packaging work to do.
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    13. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 03:40 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by BsickPassat View Post
      the 2013, compared to 2012, gets:
      more trunk space
      less front head room
      less front hip room
      more front shoulder room
      less rear head room
      more rear hip room
      more rear leg room

      Not exactly supporting the claim you made.
      Not exactly refuting it either.

      The new Accord is smaller exterior-wise than the 2008-12, correct?

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      10-02-2012 04:12 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Not exactly refuting it either.

      The new Accord is smaller exterior-wise than the 2008-12, correct?
      i have an 08 and the biggest change apart from the visual (appears much smaller) and is in actuality on paper, is the trunk space, and rear leg room. I suppose it helps that the looks much better too. For the areas that it got smaller, I didn't notice those as at all compared to the console compartment which is just tiny now. Where did the hell did all the space go to?
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      Wow, it amazes me that we have children in here that can't read a couple paragraphs. No wonder America's doing so well in education! Can't take the time to read, but sure can find the time to post. Self indulgence at it's finest.

      TL;DR should be banned and changed to ID;CR or I'm dumb, can't read.

    15. Banned WhistlerYOW's Avatar
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      10-02-2012 08:32 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by eweu View Post
      And here is a pic of the Passat's rear seat



      You could drive a tank right through there. It's enormous. That's a huge selling point right there.
      They must be using a Polish supplier.

    16. 10-02-2012 09:22 PM #116
      How in the world is the Altima short on interior space? I have witnessed my 6'2" father adjust the drivers seat to his position and then sit behind it more than comfortably; there is ample space in the interior of the Altima. The only thing the Altima is short on is memory seating...

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      10-02-2012 09:23 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by sforsancho View Post

      PS Making up nicknames like that make you seem very, very biased.
      On what planet have you been living. I *AM* very, very biased.

      Fact IMO is that the Passat won many comparos with a strong non-written argument (among others), the onctuous sonority of its I5 (typically hated here) that sounds like a sweet 6 cyl.

    18. Member thunderbird1100's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 01:20 AM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by BostonB6 View Post
      No, That's not true. The whole Malibu size thing is way overblown IMHO. Here are the #'s for Malibu/Cruze/Accord for comparison:

      Rear Hip Room 54.3/52.4/54.7
      Rear Head Room 37.5/37.9/37.5
      Rear Leg Room 36.8/35.4/38.5
      Rear Shoulder Room 57.1/53.9/56.5
      Interestingly enough I recently had a 2012 Malibu LT rental up in Oregon. The backseat was uninhabitable for myself (6'2) and my father (6'4). Outside of the fact it felt like you were sitting on a school bus bench seat with comfort (like sitting on cheap leather covered plywood), it was the headroom that was the major issue. I see from 2012 to 2013 the legroom actually decreased nearly an inch from 37.6" to 36.8" (dumb move, probably a legroom issue now too for taller adults). I also noticed though the headroom increased, but only 3 tenths of an inch. Both me and especially my father had to adjust our heads to the side just to sit upright in the backseat. Not so sure a 3 tenths of an inch increase will totally remedy that. Maybe it's how/where they measure exactly but when I got in the new Accord (same headroom height as new Malibu) nor my father or I had any issue with backseat headroom (or obviously legroom with that big backseat).

    19. 10-03-2012 01:59 AM #119
      meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.

    20. 10-03-2012 02:33 AM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by NoXenons View Post
      C&D is smoking the good stuff.

      Looking at articles on their website, you can find an XTS was compared to a Bentley, a Scion vs. Porsche Cayman S, and a Rubicon with a G550.
      yah man...those xts/bentley, frs/cayman etc comparos are more legit and will def help average buyers than this stupid midsize comparos.

    21. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 04:26 AM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Hmm. I was in NorCal pretty recently and I saw plenty of Altimas. All over San Francisco (those could of been rentals) but even all the way up in Danville. I have yet to go somewhere and notice there's a dearth of Nissans. The Murano is a pretty strong contender in the mid-size SUV market as well.
      Wow - you really were right in my backyard. Still:

      September 2012:

      Maxima: 5,718 -6.8%

      Mazda 6: 1,403 ?%

      Passat: 9,500 +199.1% (I know, slightly unfair )

      Camry: 34,252 +37.8%

      Prius: 18,932 +103%

      And while everyone else has big gains, the Altima stagnated with 24,448 (+0.4%). And the Jetta outsold the Mazda 3. This is nationwide - you bet this looks yet more skewed on the West Coast. So, yes, relatively speaking, there are lot fewer new Mazda and Nissan family sedans on the road now, and this is even more the case on the West Coast.
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    22. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 06:55 AM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by above8k View Post
      meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.


      This one?

    23. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      10-03-2012 08:44 AM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by NoXenons View Post
      C&D is smoking the good stuff.

      Looking at articles on their website, you can find a ZL1 vs M6 comparo, XTS and Bentley, Scion vs. Porsche Cayman S, and a Rubicon with a G550.
      That was one series of articles for one issue with a 'does paying 3x as much get you 3x the experience?' slant.

    24. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
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      10-03-2012 09:34 AM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      But plenty of other brands have a FWD fullsize flagship sedan to sit on top of their midsize sedan. Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia - they all follow this same pattern. Only Chrysler has a RWD halo pimpmobile, which doesn't sell in nearly the same ballpark as the Impala. And Chevy is getting a RWD halo pimpmobile as well - 2014 SS.
      Sure, but most of those brands don't have a 'tweener Buick sitting above them, right where the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, and so forth are priced. If the Impala could start around $30-32k like the LaCrosse does, that'd be perfect, with lots of room for a LWB Malibu underneath it price- and equipment-wise. But Impala needs to undercut LaCrosse, while still offering something more than the 'Bu.

      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      I agree the Malibu should be on the LWB Epsilon platform rather than SWB without a doubt. But you say "****ed up" like they had a choice. Unfortunately GM had to make the Opel-developed Epsilon platform work for 2 sedans. It wasn't like they had a huge pile of cash on hand to develop a new platform and could do so in the time given. And unfortunately, the Epsilon 2 platform is not only heavy as hell, but the SWB version is too small for American paper comparison tests. They kinda of made the best out of a bad situation, and at least were able to add some length to the Impala to address the LaCrosse trunk size issues.

      However, GM might end up lucking out in this situation and not have to take a wash until a redesign in 2018. While straddling classes has long been a GM weakness, the midsize sedan class is starting to play second fiddle to the compact sedan class in the US and maybe a shakeup could be in store. By all accounts so far the 2014 Impala looks to be a real solid effort. Having a flashier Impala take over retail sales from higher optioned Malibus might work this time around, especially since the Impala will be equipped with a 4 cyclinder. Shift Impala fleet sales to the Malibu, where rear seat size won't be such a "deal breaker" and the 2 sedans could net a very healthy amount of sales.
      I don't really mean to imply they had no choice, though it's just a snowball of bad choices made through the years. I do agree that the Impala looks pretty great and gives Chevrolet a little better answer to high-spec midsizers and other fullsizers. I just think their redundancy is really hurting them, and if they're committed to Buick, they can't cripple Chevrolet models to try to jam them all together in a price/size continuum. They either need to embrace a bit of redundancy, or they need to axe some models.
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    25. Swallow Doretti
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      10-03-2012 10:08 AM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by above8k View Post
      meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.
      Link?

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