MT: 2012-2013 Family sedan showdown

[Turbio!]

Wait wut? Keeping the Impala was dumb?!?! The Malibu/Impala combo sells more than any other midsize/fullsize combo several months out of the year. Even subtracting fleet sales and the Impala sells better than most "fullsize" sedans.

One vehicle, straddling the difference between the Malibu and Impala's sizes (say, like the Passat), would do a better job of hitting the circa-2012 midsize sedan sweet spot than both of them do together. I wouldn't have killed the Impala, though. The Impala should have been a RWD halo pimpmobile, and the Malibu should have taken over the FWD basic sedan role that it currently shares.

I think GM ****ed up by trying to differentiate the Malibu that much from the Impala sizewise, and I think they did that to try to sell it in global markets.

[Swallow Doretti]

It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.

Well, the Malibu isn't exactly smaller than the car it replaces--it's roughly the same footprint. The bigger problem is weight--the new 'Bu is a full 200 lbs heavier than the next-heaviest Accord, and roughly 350 lbs more than some of the class featherweights like the Altima. All that extra weight hurts fuel economy and handling, and it's probably one of GM's biggest issues across model ranges right now (a fully-loaded Cruze is roughly the same weight as an Altima).

[vdub10golf]

My vote would've been for the Fusion. The Passat is not bad either but it's just too bland.

[Mazda 3s]

It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.

Errr, the new Malibu is only a half an inch shorter than the old one, but took a 4" cut to the wheelbase impacting interior room. So it's not like the new one is somehow a much smaller vehicle on the outside.

That being said, my supposedly has 34.6" of rear legroom, but the back seat is still cavernous (I'm 5'11):

[Beltfed]

I have to agree, especially after reading the article. Despite not liking the CVT, they also praised and really liked the Altima's ride and handling. It was the quickest and got the best MPGs. They loved the interior and said it had the best mix of gadgets/technology and user-friendliness (hi Ford).t.

CVT is great with the V6.....really very similar to a normal auto.

[Ross1013]

It's funny how most other threads here complain about cars getting bigger with every generation, yet when GM takes the Malibu off of the growth hormone race, it gets smacked in the face.

That's because companies like Honda can make their cars smaller AND lighter, while simultaneously increasing interior room.

[GTRaavv]

One vehicle, straddling the difference between the Malibu and Impala's sizes (say, like the Passat), would do a better job of hitting the circa-2012 midsize sedan sweet spot than both of them do together. I wouldn't have killed the Impala, though. The Impala should have been a RWD halo pimpmobile, and the Malibu should have taken over the FWD basic sedan role that it currently shares.

But plenty of other brands have a FWD fullsize flagship sedan to sit on top of their midsize sedan. Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia - they all follow this same pattern. Only Chrysler has a RWD halo pimpmobile, which doesn't sell in nearly the same ballpark as the Impala. And Chevy is getting a RWD halo pimpmobile as well - 2014 SS.

I think GM ****ed up by trying to differentiate the Malibu that much from the Impala sizewise, and I think they did that to try to sell it in global markets.

I agree the Malibu should be on the LWB Epsilon platform rather than SWB without a doubt. But you say "****ed up" like they had a choice. Unfortunately GM had to make the Opel-developed Epsilon platform work for 2 sedans. It wasn't like they had a huge pile of cash on hand to develop a new platform and could do so in the time given. And unfortunately, the Epsilon 2 platform is not only heavy as hell, but the SWB version is too small for American paper comparison tests. They kinda of made the best out of a bad situation, and at least were able to add some length to the Impala to address the LaCrosse trunk size issues.

However, GM might end up lucking out in this situation and not have to take a wash until a redesign in 2018. While straddling classes has long been a GM weakness, the midsize sedan class is starting to play second fiddle to the compact sedan class in the US and maybe a shakeup could be in store. By all accounts so far the 2014 Impala looks to be a real solid effort. Having a flashier Impala take over retail sales from higher optioned Malibus might work this time around, especially since the Impala will be equipped with a 4 cyclinder. Shift Impala fleet sales to the Malibu, where rear seat size won't be such a "deal breaker" and the 2 sedans could net a very healthy amount of sales.

[BsickPassat]

That's because companies like Honda can make their cars smaller AND lighter, while simultaneously increasing interior room.

Except, in 2008, the new accord didn't get smaller on the outside to increase interior room.... the accord went huge

[Ross1013]

Except, in 2008, the new accord didn't get smaller on the outside to increase interior room.... the accord went huge

That was 2008. The 2013 car is shorter, lighter, and has more interior room than the 2008-12 car.

What also happened was that in 2008 the Accord Coupe and sedan diverged. The 7th-gen Accord coupe has a larger trunk and more passenger volume than the 8th-gen. The coupe stood pat while the sedan grew, in order to better diversify.

[BsickPassat]

That was 2008. The 2013 car is shorter, lighter, and has more interior room than the 2008-12 car.

What also happened was that in 2008 the Accord Coupe and sedan diverged. The 7th-gen Accord coupe has a larger trunk and more passenger volume than the 8th-gen. The coupe stood pat while the sedan grew, in order to better diversify.

the 2013, compared to 2012, gets:
more trunk space
less front head room
less front hip room
more front shoulder room
less rear head room
more rear hip room
more rear leg room

Not exactly supporting the claim you made.

The smaller exterior dimensioned Camry is a little tighter up front, but provides a little larger space in the back....

Technically, the smaller Camry, when it was "redesigned" kept virtually the same exterior dimensions while increasing space inside, mostly to the rear passenger compartment.

So... honda has some packaging work to do.

[Ross1013]

the 2013, compared to 2012, gets:
more trunk space
less front head room
less front hip room
more front shoulder room
less rear head room
more rear hip room
more rear leg room

Not exactly supporting the claim you made.

Not exactly refuting it either.

The new Accord is smaller exterior-wise than the 2008-12, correct?

[gti5dr06]

Not exactly refuting it either.

The new Accord is smaller exterior-wise than the 2008-12, correct?

i have an 08 and the biggest change apart from the visual (appears much smaller) and is in actuality on paper, is the trunk space, and rear leg room. I suppose it helps that the looks much better too. For the areas that it got smaller, I didn't notice those as at all compared to the console compartment which is just tiny now. Where did the hell did all the space go to?

[WhistlerYOW]

And here is a pic of the Passat's rear seat



You could drive a tank right through there. It's enormous. That's a huge selling point right there.

They must be using a Polish supplier.

[enigmatic enthusiast]

How in the world is the Altima short on interior space? I have witnessed my 6'2" father adjust the drivers seat to his position and then sit behind it more than comfortably; there is ample space in the interior of the Altima. The only thing the Altima is short on is memory seating...

[Saintor]

PS Making up nicknames like that make you seem very, very biased.

On what planet have you been living. I *AM* very, very biased.

Fact IMO is that the Passat won many comparos with a strong non-written argument (among others), the onctuous sonority of its I5 (typically hated here) that sounds like a sweet 6 cyl.

[thunderbird1100]

No, That's not true. The whole Malibu size thing is way overblown IMHO. Here are the #'s for Malibu/Cruze/Accord for comparison:

Rear Hip Room 54.3/52.4/54.7
Rear Head Room 37.5/37.9/37.5
Rear Leg Room 36.8/35.4/38.5
Rear Shoulder Room 57.1/53.9/56.5

Interestingly enough I recently had a 2012 Malibu LT rental up in Oregon. The backseat was uninhabitable for myself (6'2) and my father (6'4). Outside of the fact it felt like you were sitting on a school bus bench seat with comfort (like sitting on cheap leather covered plywood), it was the headroom that was the major issue. I see from 2012 to 2013 the legroom actually decreased nearly an inch from 37.6" to 36.8" (dumb move, probably a legroom issue now too for taller adults). I also noticed though the headroom increased, but only 3 tenths of an inch. Both me and especially my father had to adjust our heads to the side just to sit upright in the backseat. Not so sure a 3 tenths of an inch increase will totally remedy that. Maybe it's how/where they measure exactly but when I got in the new Accord (same headroom height as new Malibu) nor my father or I had any issue with backseat headroom (or obviously legroom with that big backseat).

[above8k]

meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.

[NoXenons]

meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.

C&D is smoking the good stuff.

Looking at articles on their website, you can find a ZL1 vs M6 comparo, XTS and Bentley, Scion vs. Porsche Cayman S, and a Rubicon with a G550.

[above8k]

C&D is smoking the good stuff.

Looking at articles on their website, you can find an XTS was compared to a Bentley, a Scion vs. Porsche Cayman S, and a Rubicon with a G550.

yah man...those xts/bentley, frs/cayman etc comparos are more legit and will def help average buyers than this stupid midsize comparos.

[NoXenons]

yah man...those xts/bentley, frs/cayman etc comparos are more legit and will def help average buyers than this stupid midsize comparos.

It doesn't get any more ridiculous. They determined the winner of the G550/Rubicon test from the slalom speed!

[feels_road]

Hmm. I was in NorCal pretty recently and I saw plenty of Altimas. All over San Francisco (those could of been rentals) but even all the way up in Danville. I have yet to go somewhere and notice there's a dearth of Nissans. The Murano is a pretty strong contender in the mid-size SUV market as well.

Wow - you really were right in my backyard. Still:

September 2012:

Maxima: 5,718 -6.8%

Mazda 6: 1,403 ?%

Passat: 9,500 +199.1% (I know, slightly unfair )

Camry: 34,252 +37.8%

Prius: 18,932 +103%

And while everyone else has big gains, the Altima stagnated with 24,448 (+0.4%). And the Jetta outsold the Mazda 3. This is nationwide - you bet this looks yet more skewed on the West Coast. So, yes, relatively speaking, there are lot fewer new Mazda and Nissan family sedans on the road now, and this is even more the case on the West Coast.

[Shomegrown]

meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.

This one?

[Mike!]

C&D is smoking the good stuff.

Looking at articles on their website, you can find a ZL1 vs M6 comparo, XTS and Bentley, Scion vs. Porsche Cayman S, and a Rubicon with a G550.

That was one series of articles for one issue with a 'does paying 3x as much get you 3x the experience?' slant.

[Turbio!]

But plenty of other brands have a FWD fullsize flagship sedan to sit on top of their midsize sedan. Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia - they all follow this same pattern. Only Chrysler has a RWD halo pimpmobile, which doesn't sell in nearly the same ballpark as the Impala. And Chevy is getting a RWD halo pimpmobile as well - 2014 SS.

Sure, but most of those brands don't have a 'tweener Buick sitting above them, right where the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, and so forth are priced. If the Impala could start around $30-32k like the LaCrosse does, that'd be perfect, with lots of room for a LWB Malibu underneath it price- and equipment-wise. But Impala needs to undercut LaCrosse, while still offering something more than the 'Bu.

I agree the Malibu should be on the LWB Epsilon platform rather than SWB without a doubt. But you say "****ed up" like they had a choice. Unfortunately GM had to make the Opel-developed Epsilon platform work for 2 sedans. It wasn't like they had a huge pile of cash on hand to develop a new platform and could do so in the time given. And unfortunately, the Epsilon 2 platform is not only heavy as hell, but the SWB version is too small for American paper comparison tests. They kinda of made the best out of a bad situation, and at least were able to add some length to the Impala to address the LaCrosse trunk size issues.

However, GM might end up lucking out in this situation and not have to take a wash until a redesign in 2018. While straddling classes has long been a GM weakness, the midsize sedan class is starting to play second fiddle to the compact sedan class in the US and maybe a shakeup could be in store. By all accounts so far the 2014 Impala looks to be a real solid effort. Having a flashier Impala take over retail sales from higher optioned Malibus might work this time around, especially since the Impala will be equipped with a 4 cyclinder. Shift Impala fleet sales to the Malibu, where rear seat size won't be such a "deal breaker" and the 2 sedans could net a very healthy amount of sales.

I don't really mean to imply they had no choice, though it's just a snowball of bad choices made through the years. I do agree that the Impala looks pretty great and gives Chevrolet a little better answer to high-spec midsizers and other fullsizers. I just think their redundancy is really hurting them, and if they're committed to Buick, they can't cripple Chevrolet models to try to jam them all together in a price/size continuum. They either need to embrace a bit of redundancy, or they need to axe some models.

[Swallow Doretti]

meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.

Link?

[WhistlerYOW]

I love how TCL is always whining about how big and fat American market cars are, crying for more European size offerings, then when gm actually downsize a model everyone whines about it. Then VW makes their cars fat and more American/less European and everyone loves it.

[gti5dr06]

This one?

its the newest one on newsstands...so probably won't be online for a bit

[GTRaavv]

Sure, but most of those brands don't have a 'tweener Buick sitting above them, right where the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, and so forth are priced. If the Impala could start around $30-32k like the LaCrosse does, that'd be perfect, with lots of room for a LWB Malibu underneath it price- and equipment-wise. But Impala needs to undercut LaCrosse, while still offering something more than the 'Bu.

But currently the Impala starts off at almost the same price as the Taurus (not factoring in huge rebates). And there is no reason to think that the 2014 Impala won't receive a price bump to Taurus levels. Has the Taurus hurt the Fusion at all? I'd also argue that pricing these mainstream "flagship" sedans higher like the Asian brands has not necessarily led to a lot of success in terms of sales (ex: Avalon, new Azera maybe).

I also don't think LaCrosse pricing is going to hinder how Chevy prices the Impala with options too much. While the LaCrosse currently starts at $31,000, it keeps moving up the price ladder quite a bit since release. I'd imagine that the refresh for 2014 will see another $1,000 price increase and the redesign an even larger one. They also seem to target different markets rather well, at least a lot better than GM used to do with its rebadges.

I don't really mean to imply they had no choice, though it's just a snowball of bad choices made through the years. I do agree that the Impala looks pretty great and gives Chevrolet a little better answer to high-spec midsizers and other fullsizers. I just think their redundancy is really hurting them, and if they're committed to Buick, they can't cripple Chevrolet models to try to jam them all together in a price/size continuum. They either need to embrace a bit of redundancy, or they need to axe some models.

Snowball of bad choices is nice to say the least! And I think redundancy has plagued them in the past to no ends. But I don't think the issues with the Malibu stem from any redundancy. They stem from not having 2 platforms sized in spec with other U.S. midsize and fullsize sedan platforms and ones that don't weigh a ton available at the time. I'd assume that somewhere right now GM is developing an Epsilon 3 platform that will be lighter and allow for greater adaptability in terms of length, giving Chevy the option to have a larger Malibu and Impala in the future.

However, I don't think this issue will matter too much at this time because of the transition GM is trying to make with the Impala from fleet queen to retail darling. This requires a large shift of the 10,000+ fleet sales a month the Impala racks in to the Malibu. And I think the Malibu is more than capable of handling fleet sales shifted down from the Impala as well as maintaining its retail sales. This allows the Impala to appeal to high-spec buyers in the segment who probably care more about resale value that can be diminished by high percentages of fleet. Should be interesting to see how the premium-spec Fusions retain value if Ford keeps up its fleet dumping practices.

[Swallow Doretti]

its the newest one on newsstands...so probably won't be online for a bit

What was the finishing order?

[gti5dr06]

What was the finishing order?

i'm quoting it from another forum, but it was:

1)Accord
2)Fusion
3)Altima

[IsraelGT]

i'm quoting it from another forum, but it was:

1)Accord
2)Fusion
3)Altima

I don't see a Passat?

[gti5dr06]

I don't see a Passat?

I'm assuming there's more than four since they mentioned it was last.

[NoXenons]

I don't see a Passat?

"If you ain't first, you're last"

[Mazda 3s]

I love how TCL is always whining about how big and fat American market cars are, crying for more European size offerings, then when gm actually downsize a model everyone whines about it. Then VW makes their cars fat and more American/less European and everyone loves it.

A .5" reduction in length is downsizing? That's pretty much parity IMHO. Now if were were talking 4", like they did with the wheelbase, I'd agree.

[akuma]

i'm quoting it from another forum, but it was:

1)Accord
2)Fusion
3)Altima

well i got the first two right. man, how quickly the top fall. i don't know what they hated so much about the Passat this time around. actually, i think the non-eco Malibu probably did very well in the handling portion, and maybe the Camry SE grew on them.