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    Thread: MT: 2012-2013 Family sedan showdown

    1. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 04:26 AM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Hmm. I was in NorCal pretty recently and I saw plenty of Altimas. All over San Francisco (those could of been rentals) but even all the way up in Danville. I have yet to go somewhere and notice there's a dearth of Nissans. The Murano is a pretty strong contender in the mid-size SUV market as well.
      Wow - you really were right in my backyard. Still:

      September 2012:

      Maxima: 5,718 -6.8%

      Mazda 6: 1,403 ?%

      Passat: 9,500 +199.1% (I know, slightly unfair )

      Camry: 34,252 +37.8%

      Prius: 18,932 +103%

      And while everyone else has big gains, the Altima stagnated with 24,448 (+0.4%). And the Jetta outsold the Mazda 3. This is nationwide - you bet this looks yet more skewed on the West Coast. So, yes, relatively speaking, there are lot fewer new Mazda and Nissan family sedans on the road now, and this is even more the case on the West Coast.
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    2. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 06:55 AM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by above8k View Post
      meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.


      This one?

    3. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      10-03-2012 08:44 AM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by NoXenons View Post
      C&D is smoking the good stuff.

      Looking at articles on their website, you can find a ZL1 vs M6 comparo, XTS and Bentley, Scion vs. Porsche Cayman S, and a Rubicon with a G550.
      That was one series of articles for one issue with a 'does paying 3x as much get you 3x the experience?' slant.

    4. Geriatric Member Turbio!'s Avatar
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      10-03-2012 09:34 AM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      But plenty of other brands have a FWD fullsize flagship sedan to sit on top of their midsize sedan. Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia - they all follow this same pattern. Only Chrysler has a RWD halo pimpmobile, which doesn't sell in nearly the same ballpark as the Impala. And Chevy is getting a RWD halo pimpmobile as well - 2014 SS.
      Sure, but most of those brands don't have a 'tweener Buick sitting above them, right where the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, and so forth are priced. If the Impala could start around $30-32k like the LaCrosse does, that'd be perfect, with lots of room for a LWB Malibu underneath it price- and equipment-wise. But Impala needs to undercut LaCrosse, while still offering something more than the 'Bu.

      Quote Originally Posted by GTRaavv View Post
      I agree the Malibu should be on the LWB Epsilon platform rather than SWB without a doubt. But you say "****ed up" like they had a choice. Unfortunately GM had to make the Opel-developed Epsilon platform work for 2 sedans. It wasn't like they had a huge pile of cash on hand to develop a new platform and could do so in the time given. And unfortunately, the Epsilon 2 platform is not only heavy as hell, but the SWB version is too small for American paper comparison tests. They kinda of made the best out of a bad situation, and at least were able to add some length to the Impala to address the LaCrosse trunk size issues.

      However, GM might end up lucking out in this situation and not have to take a wash until a redesign in 2018. While straddling classes has long been a GM weakness, the midsize sedan class is starting to play second fiddle to the compact sedan class in the US and maybe a shakeup could be in store. By all accounts so far the 2014 Impala looks to be a real solid effort. Having a flashier Impala take over retail sales from higher optioned Malibus might work this time around, especially since the Impala will be equipped with a 4 cyclinder. Shift Impala fleet sales to the Malibu, where rear seat size won't be such a "deal breaker" and the 2 sedans could net a very healthy amount of sales.
      I don't really mean to imply they had no choice, though it's just a snowball of bad choices made through the years. I do agree that the Impala looks pretty great and gives Chevrolet a little better answer to high-spec midsizers and other fullsizers. I just think their redundancy is really hurting them, and if they're committed to Buick, they can't cripple Chevrolet models to try to jam them all together in a price/size continuum. They either need to embrace a bit of redundancy, or they need to axe some models.
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    5. Swallow Doretti
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      10-03-2012 10:08 AM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by above8k View Post
      meanwhile, Passat came last in CD comparo.
      Link?

    6. Banned WhistlerYOW's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 10:25 AM #131
      I love how TCL is always whining about how big and fat American market cars are, crying for more European size offerings, then when gm actually downsize a model everyone whines about it. Then VW makes their cars fat and more American/less European and everyone loves it.
      Last edited by WhistlerYOW; 10-03-2012 at 10:28 AM.

    7. Member gti5dr06's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 10:45 AM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by Shomegrown View Post
      its the newest one on newsstands...so probably won't be online for a bit
      Quote Originally Posted by konigwheels View Post
      Wow, it amazes me that we have children in here that can't read a couple paragraphs. No wonder America's doing so well in education! Can't take the time to read, but sure can find the time to post. Self indulgence at it's finest.

      TL;DR should be banned and changed to ID;CR or I'm dumb, can't read.

    8. Member GTRaavv's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 01:38 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Sure, but most of those brands don't have a 'tweener Buick sitting above them, right where the Avalon, Azera, Taurus, and so forth are priced. If the Impala could start around $30-32k like the LaCrosse does, that'd be perfect, with lots of room for a LWB Malibu underneath it price- and equipment-wise. But Impala needs to undercut LaCrosse, while still offering something more than the 'Bu.
      But currently the Impala starts off at almost the same price as the Taurus (not factoring in huge rebates). And there is no reason to think that the 2014 Impala won't receive a price bump to Taurus levels. Has the Taurus hurt the Fusion at all? I'd also argue that pricing these mainstream "flagship" sedans higher like the Asian brands has not necessarily led to a lot of success in terms of sales (ex: Avalon, new Azera maybe).

      I also don't think LaCrosse pricing is going to hinder how Chevy prices the Impala with options too much. While the LaCrosse currently starts at $31,000, it keeps moving up the price ladder quite a bit since release. I'd imagine that the refresh for 2014 will see another $1,000 price increase and the redesign an even larger one. They also seem to target different markets rather well, at least a lot better than GM used to do with its rebadges.

      I don't really mean to imply they had no choice, though it's just a snowball of bad choices made through the years. I do agree that the Impala looks pretty great and gives Chevrolet a little better answer to high-spec midsizers and other fullsizers. I just think their redundancy is really hurting them, and if they're committed to Buick, they can't cripple Chevrolet models to try to jam them all together in a price/size continuum. They either need to embrace a bit of redundancy, or they need to axe some models.
      Snowball of bad choices is nice to say the least! And I think redundancy has plagued them in the past to no ends. But I don't think the issues with the Malibu stem from any redundancy. They stem from not having 2 platforms sized in spec with other U.S. midsize and fullsize sedan platforms and ones that don't weigh a ton available at the time. I'd assume that somewhere right now GM is developing an Epsilon 3 platform that will be lighter and allow for greater adaptability in terms of length, giving Chevy the option to have a larger Malibu and Impala in the future.

      However, I don't think this issue will matter too much at this time because of the transition GM is trying to make with the Impala from fleet queen to retail darling. This requires a large shift of the 10,000+ fleet sales a month the Impala racks in to the Malibu. And I think the Malibu is more than capable of handling fleet sales shifted down from the Impala as well as maintaining its retail sales. This allows the Impala to appeal to high-spec buyers in the segment who probably care more about resale value that can be diminished by high percentages of fleet. Should be interesting to see how the premium-spec Fusions retain value if Ford keeps up its fleet dumping practices.

    9. Swallow Doretti
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      10-03-2012 02:02 PM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by gti5dr06 View Post
      its the newest one on newsstands...so probably won't be online for a bit
      What was the finishing order?

    10. Member gti5dr06's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 02:18 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by Swallow Doretti View Post
      What was the finishing order?
      i'm quoting it from another forum, but it was:

      1)Accord
      2)Fusion
      3)Altima
      Quote Originally Posted by konigwheels View Post
      Wow, it amazes me that we have children in here that can't read a couple paragraphs. No wonder America's doing so well in education! Can't take the time to read, but sure can find the time to post. Self indulgence at it's finest.

      TL;DR should be banned and changed to ID;CR or I'm dumb, can't read.

    11. Member IsraelGT's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 02:57 PM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by gti5dr06 View Post
      i'm quoting it from another forum, but it was:

      1)Accord
      2)Fusion
      3)Altima
      I don't see a Passat?

    12. Member gti5dr06's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 03:03 PM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by IsraelGT View Post
      I don't see a Passat?
      I'm assuming there's more than four since they mentioned it was last.
      Quote Originally Posted by konigwheels View Post
      Wow, it amazes me that we have children in here that can't read a couple paragraphs. No wonder America's doing so well in education! Can't take the time to read, but sure can find the time to post. Self indulgence at it's finest.

      TL;DR should be banned and changed to ID;CR or I'm dumb, can't read.

    13. Member NoXenons's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 03:03 PM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by IsraelGT View Post
      I don't see a Passat?
      "If you ain't first, you're last"

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      10-03-2012 03:13 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by WhistlerYOW View Post
      I love how TCL is always whining about how big and fat American market cars are, crying for more European size offerings, then when gm actually downsize a model everyone whines about it. Then VW makes their cars fat and more American/less European and everyone loves it.
      A .5" reduction in length is downsizing? That's pretty much parity IMHO. Now if were were talking 4", like they did with the wheelbase, I'd agree.
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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      No, I got good grades in school

    15. 10-03-2012 03:16 PM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by gti5dr06 View Post
      i'm quoting it from another forum, but it was:

      1)Accord
      2)Fusion
      3)Altima
      well i got the first two right. man, how quickly the top fall. i don't know what they hated so much about the Passat this time around. actually, i think the non-eco Malibu probably did very well in the handling portion, and maybe the Camry SE grew on them.

    16. Forum Sponsor Andy@Ross-Tech.com's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 03:29 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by gti5dr06 View Post
      its the newest one on newsstands...so probably won't be online for a bit
      Article paraphrased here:

      http://www.hondasacuras.com/2012/10/...size-cars.html

    17. 10-03-2012 03:32 PM #142
      actually, with a little research, the Accord EX seemed to win because of its heavy advantage in powertrain over the Fusion. they both had the same score for vehicle evaluation 82 /100 points and chassis score 54/60 points. but the Accord got 52/55 points for powertrain vs 45/55 from the Fusion, and the Accord surprisingly got 23/25 points for fun to drive compared to 21/25 points from the Fusion contradicting the Motor Trend comparison which stated that the same Accord EX was no fun to drive at all. however, they did use the automatic version of the Fusion which is probably much more boring than the manual. so it appears that the Fusion wasn't as knocked over its ergonomics and interior styling as i thought it would be. or maybe the Accord lost points in probably being the most expensive vehicle in the test, or something.

    18. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 03:39 PM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by Andy@Ross-Tech.com View Post
      I can't blame them. I'm pretty sure I'd take the Fusion over a 2.5 Passat too.

      (TDI is a different story)

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      10-03-2012 04:00 PM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by Andy@Ross-Tech.com View Post
      I'm looking forward to a TDI Passat comparison to the hybrid or new DI Accord.

    20. 10-03-2012 06:14 PM #145
      Looking at the charts rather than reading the text shows these cars to be remarkably close, so a few observations:
      Based on observed MPG, the Malibu's 21.3 really is off; the Passat's "good, but not outstanding" 25.5 is only .3 off the Accord's "fine" 25.8 and .8 off the Altima's leading 26.3.
      The Passat's "massive trunk" is smaller than the Malibu and Fusion.
      The Passat, for all the bally-hoo about its interior size, comes up first only in rear legroom, and that by .2 over the Camry. If you're a tall driver, you'll want the Altima.
      They're all pretty close 0-30 and 0-40, the Passat lags (probably noticeably) 0-60 and 45-65.
      Based on the numbers, there's no clear winner.
      Interior and exterior styling preferences are ultimately personal, so I doubt that anyone choosing based on that will be disappointed.
      I suspect that the driving experience is the clearest variable. If you're not an enthusiast and/or have a brand preference, it probably won't make a difference; and while the Malibu and Camry seem to come up a bit short, I wonder whether the on-the-road difference between the others is that significant. Personally, I've driven a prior gen Camry, ridden in my brother-in-laws Eco-Malibu-sort of unimpressed, especially compared to his previous gen Malibu; and taken a Passat 2.5 for an unfortunately short test drive-satisfied enough to give it another shot; test drove an Optima-impressive; and have no experience with recent Accords or Altimas.
      I know I sound non-committal, but this test gives me no reason to believe that whichever car one picks it won't disappoint, nor will nitpicky hairsplitting change anyone's mind.
      All in all, I guess that's a testament to the manufacturers' strides in a very competitive segment, or an indictment of their universal blandness-I'll go with the former.

    21. Member Yo Teach's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 07:09 PM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by NoXenons View Post
      C&D is smoking the good stuff.

      Looking at articles on their website, you can find a ZL1 vs M6 comparo, XTS and Bentley, Scion vs. Porsche Cayman S, and a Rubicon with a G550.
      Quote Originally Posted by NoXenons View Post
      It doesn't get any more ridiculous. They determined the winner of the G550/Rubicon test from the slalom speed!
      Car and Driver's tongue was placed firmly in their cheek when they came up with those comparisons, but they still had a point - What is the gap in performance, comfort, quality, etc. between luxury and non-luxury brand vehicles? Is the price jump for a BMW over a Chevy worth it?

      Quote Originally Posted by gti5dr06 View Post
      I'm assuming there's more than four since they mentioned it was last.
      It was just the four cars; Accord, Fusion, Altima, Passat, respectively.
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    22. 10-03-2012 08:24 PM #147
      Book another C/D 10Best win for the Accord. It's already wrapped up.

    23. Swallow Doretti
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      10-03-2012 08:34 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by joe97 View Post
      Book another C/D 10Best win for the Accord. It's already wrapped up.
      My only comment about the article is that several of the journos with whom I've spoken about the Accord say that the new steering system really reduces the fun-to-drive factor.

      The new Fusion really does look great, but I remain concerned about how Ford handles the whole integration of the stereo and A/C--the center stack in the M/T test looks utterly button-rific.

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      10-03-2012 09:01 PM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by Swallow Doretti View Post
      My only comment about the article is that several of the journos with whom I've spoken about the Accord say that the new steering system really reduces the fun-to-drive factor.

      The new Fusion really does look great, but I remain concerned about how Ford handles the whole integration of the stereo and A/C--the center stack in the M/T test looks utterly button-rific.
      When you hear gripes like that, do you assume that the steering actually sucks, or that you're talking to people who haven't acclimated to EPS yet (or just dislike it)?

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      10-04-2012 01:24 PM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by Andy@Ross-Tech.com View Post
      Altima is quick and efficient.

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