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    Thread: Atlanta refuses to name a street after Ferdinand Porsche because of ties to the Third Reich

    1. Member dubjager's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 06:29 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by seadoo2006 View Post
      Funny the parallels you can draw between present day US and 1930s Germany
      Exactly what I was thinking as I was reading this...

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      10-03-2012 06:31 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by The Igneous Faction View Post


      Do you guys think that this version of the Pzkfw VI had more "soul" than its Henschel counterpart?

      If by soul you mean that the "chin" on the turret deflected shells in the drivers compartment roof, then yes it had more soul than the Henschel.
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      10-03-2012 07:46 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      Right, but I dont see Coca Cola or CNN setting up at the airport. If anything, those two companies should vs. Porsche when I think of Atlanta.
      It isn't at the airport, just near it, close enough that incoming flights will be able to see it on approach. CNN and Coke are in the city but they also don't have tracks at their headquarters.

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      10-03-2012 09:13 PM #54
      If you were a large business owner, property owner, famous or wealthy, you were either a member of the Nazi Party, or you were an enemy of the Nazi Party. Just like the Hitler youths. They had no choice in the matter.
      A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
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    5. Banned Saintor's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 09:15 PM #55
      Well that's legitimate reason.

    6. Member MrRline's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 10:38 PM #56
      How long before people let things die. Slavery, Nazi's. War's over most of the people from that era are dead or fast approaching it. Time for people to shove it and move on. I hate seeing this crap...

      Also for reference to someone's earlier post about removing the confederate flag. it still flys at the border of Georgia at the north and the south before entering Florida.
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    7. 10-03-2012 10:57 PM #57
      Imagine how much better this country would be today had Germany won the war.
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    8. Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 11:08 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by Jerico007 View Post
      I agree history is history and personally see no issue. That being said...this is America...and political correctness is rampant.
      Yup. I guess we will just name it Some Street.
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    9. Member TM87's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 11:20 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      How long before people let things die. Slavery, Nazi's. War's over most of the people from that era are dead or fast approaching it. Time for people to shove it and move on. I hate seeing this crap...

      Also for reference to someone's earlier post about removing the confederate flag. it still flys at the border of Georgia at the north and the south before entering Florida.
      What do they say about history and repeating it???

      We should never forget slavery, Nazis, KKK, Bush ....
      "Your pants too tight,your wheels too bright"

    10. Banned Fritz27's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 11:24 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      How long before people let things die. Slavery, Nazi's. War's over most of the people from that era are dead or fast approaching it. Time for people to shove it and move on. I hate seeing this crap...

      Also for reference to someone's earlier post about removing the confederate flag. it still flys at the border of Georgia at the north and the south before entering Florida.
      Because the Nazis were literally evil incarnate. That's why we shouldn't just let it go. Just because Germans are nice people now and they make cool cars doesn't mean we should pretend their ****ed up past doesn't exist.

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      10-03-2012 11:38 PM #61
      "A racetrack for enthusiasts to test their Cayennes"

      Hmmmm...

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    12. Senior Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 11:44 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      Because the Nazis were literally evil incarnate. That's why we shouldn't just let it go. Just because Germans are nice people now and they make cool cars doesn't mean we should pretend their ****ed up past doesn't exist.
      On the other hand, every developed nation have had ties with Germany while National Socialist party was in power. Surely, there is at least one street somewhere named after someone who worked for Ford or GM.
      “I would request that my body in death be buried not cremated, so that the energy content contained within it gets returned to the earth, so that flora and fauna can dine upon it, just as I have dined upon flora and fauna during my lifetime” - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

    13. 10-03-2012 11:47 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      What do they say about history and repeating it???

      We should never forget slavery, Nazis, KKK, Bush ....
      sadly most have already forgotten
      Boiler Up!

      Make it three yards mother****er and we'll have an automobile race

    14. Senior Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      10-03-2012 11:49 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Juiced6 View Post
      sadly most have already forgotten
      Bush's ideas and plans are still being implemented all over the World, so it's not all that bad.
      “I would request that my body in death be buried not cremated, so that the energy content contained within it gets returned to the earth, so that flora and fauna can dine upon it, just as I have dined upon flora and fauna during my lifetime” - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

    15. 10-03-2012 11:53 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
      Bush's ideas and plans are still being implemented all over the World, so it's not all that bad.
      Bush had an idea?
      Boiler Up!

      Make it three yards mother****er and we'll have an automobile race

    16. Member paradigmGT's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 12:12 AM #66
      Why are they naming a street after Porsche? Aren't there many past Americans worthy of a street name instead of Porsche?
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    17. Senior Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 12:31 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Juiced6 View Post
      Bush had an idea?
      I was referring to Bush Snr.
      “I would request that my body in death be buried not cremated, so that the energy content contained within it gets returned to the earth, so that flora and fauna can dine upon it, just as I have dined upon flora and fauna during my lifetime” - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

    18. 10-04-2012 12:34 AM #68
      General Motors owned Opel during WWII which made vehicles for the Germans.

      General Motors produced vast quantities of armaments, vehicles, and aircraft for the Allied war effort during World War II. Its multinational interests were split up by the combating powers during the war such that the American, Canadian and British parts of the corporation served the Allied war effort and Adam Opel AG served the Axis war effort. By the spring of 1939, the German Government had assumed day-to-day control of American owned factories in Germany, but decided against nationalizing them completely (seizing the assets and capital). Soon after the war broke out, the nationalization came.[11]

      GM's William S. Knudsen served as head of U.S. wartime production for President Franklin Roosevelt, who called Detroit the Arsenal of Democracy. The General Motors UK division, Vauxhall Motors, manufactured the Churchill tank series for the Allies. The Vauxhall Churchill tanks were instrumental in the UK campaigns in North Africa. Bedford Vehicles and GM of Canada, CMP manufactured logistics vehicles for the UK military, all important in the UK's land campaigns. In addition, GM was the top manufacturer of U.S. Army 1½ ton 4x4 vehicles.[12]

      By mainstream accounts, General Motors' German subsidiary (Adam Opel AG) was outside the control of the American parent corporation during World War II. Some conspiracy theorists posit that this was a hoax, with the American GM as a secret war profiteer on both sides, but Alfred Sloan's memoir, for example,[13] presents a description of lost control that is much more Occam-compliant than the fringe alternatives. However, even without any such conspiracy, GM found criticism for its tax avoidance around the Opel topic. During the war, GM declared it had abandoned its German subsidiary, and took a complete tax write-off worth "approximately $22.7 million", yet after the war, GM collected some $33 million in "war reparations" because the Allies had bombed its German facilities.

      In August 1938, a senior executive for General Motors, James D. Mooney, received the Grand Cross of the German Eagle for his distinguished service to the Reich. "Nazi armaments chief Albert Speer told a congressional investigator that Germany could not have attempted its September 1939 Blitzkrieg of Poland without the performance-boosting additive technology provided by Alfred P. Sloan and General Motors".[57][58][59][60] During war Opel's Brandenburg facilities produced bombers JU-88, trucks, land mines and torpedo detonators for Nazi Germany.[61]

      Charles Levinson, formerly deputy director of the European office of the CIO, clearly stated in his book, "Vodka-Cola":[62]

      "Alfred P. Sloan, James D. Mooney, John T. Smith and Graeme K. Howard remained on the Opel board . . . in flagrant violation of existing legislation, information, contacts, transfers and trade continued [throughout the war] to flow between the firm's Detroit headquarters and its subsidiaries both in Allied countries and in territories controlled by the Axis powers. The financial records of Opel Rüsselsheim revealed that between 1942 and 1945 production and sales strategy were planned in close coordination with General Motors factories throughout the world.... In 1943, while its American manufacturers were equipping the United States Air Force, the German group were developing, manufacturing and assembling motors for the Messerschmitt 262, the first jet fighter in the world. This innovation gave the Nazis a basic technological advantage. With speeds up to 540 miles per hour, this aircraft could fly 100 miles per hour faster than its American rival, the piston-powered Mustang P51."

      David Farber, author of Sloan Rules: Alfred P. Sloan and the Triumph of General Motors (2002), stated that:[63]

      "GM destroyed Sloan's files to protect itself from lawsuits regarding antitrust issues, the neglect of automobile safety and its investments in Nazi Germany."

      Sloan's memoir presents a different picture of Opel's wartime existence.[64] According to Sloan, Opel was nationalized (along with most other industrial activity owned or co-owned by foreign interests) by the German state soon after the outbreak of war.[11] Sloan presents Opel at the end of the war as a black box to GM's American management—an organization that the Americans had had no contact with for 5 years. According to Sloan, GM in Detroit debated whether to even try to run Opel in the postwar era, or to leave to the interim West German government the question of who would pick up the pieces.[64]

      Given the extreme difficulty of civilian communications between Germany and Allied nations during the war, Sloan's lost-contact version of the wartime era seems credible—more so than the CIO's version. However, GM's actions during the era before the war, between 1936 and 1939 when Germany was rearming in open-secret violation of the Versailles treaty, are much more difficult to defend. The idea that corporate interests weren't prioritized above national or ethical ones during that era seems basically defenseless. Not surprisingly, Sloan's memoir doesn't mention this topic at all, either because Sloan himself avoided it or because GM's lawyers succeeded in getting it redacted.

      Defending the German investment strategy as "highly profitable", Alfred P. Sloan told shareholders in 1939 GM's continued industrial production for the Nazi government was merely sound business practice. In a letter to a concerned shareholder, Sloan said that the manner in which the Nazi government ran Germany "should not be considered the business of the management of General Motors...We must conduct ourselves as a German organization. . . We have no right to shut down the plant."[65]

      After 20 years of researching General Motors, Bradford Snell stated, "General Motors was far more important to the Nazi war machine than Switzerland ... Switzerland was just a repository of looted funds. Opel was an integral part of the German war effort. The Nazis could have invaded Poland and Russia without Switzerland. They could not have done so without GM."

    19. Member MrRline's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 12:40 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      What do they say about history and repeating it???

      We should never forget slavery, Nazis, KKK, Bush ....
      If history is doomed to repeat itself then all this does it keep the previous history fresh in your mind for the same thing to happen again. There's nothing to learn from it...

      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      Because the Nazis were literally evil incarnate. That's why we shouldn't just let it go. Just because Germans are nice people now and they make cool cars doesn't mean we should pretend their ****ed up past doesn't exist.
      Literally evil incarnate eh? Differing opinions on this issue i'm sure. Looking past our opinions on the subject for a moment I guess we could take a quick look at Muslims. Towers go down, Americans are dead, and Muslim group says we did it. By your logic we should hate every Muslim that we meet because of the actions of an individual or group of people purely based on geographic preferences??

      Also while were on the subject go ahead and throw out your tv, your stereo, your smart phone and just about every other electronic device you owned because while were at it the Chinese pushed us back in North Korea, Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and lets give up Pizza because the Italians were in line too! People that dwell on the past are hippocrits this is proof of it.
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    20. Senior Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:02 AM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      Literally evil incarnate eh? Differing opinions on this issue i'm sure. Looking past our opinions on the subject for a moment I guess we could take a quick look at Muslims. Towers go down, Americans are dead, and Muslim group says we did it. By your logic we should hate every Muslim that we meet because of the actions of an individual or group of people purely based on geographic preferences??

      Also while were on the subject go ahead and throw out your tv, your stereo, your smart phone and just about every other electronic device you owned because while were at it the Chinese pushed us back in North Korea, Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and lets give up Pizza because the Italians were in line too! People that dwell on the past are hippocrits this is proof of it.
      Spot on.
      “I would request that my body in death be buried not cremated, so that the energy content contained within it gets returned to the earth, so that flora and fauna can dine upon it, just as I have dined upon flora and fauna during my lifetime” - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

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      10-04-2012 01:02 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      Also while were on the subject go ahead and throw out your tv, your stereo, your smart phone and just about every other electronic device you owned because while were at it the Chinese pushed us back in North Korea, Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and lets give up Pizza because the Italians were in line too! People that dwell on the past are hippocrits this is proof of it.
      I don't think a single person agreeing with this decision would tell someone not to buy a Porsche because of the company's history with the Nazis. Nor would anyone say that all Germans today should be looked down upon because of the past.

      But what this decision is about and what it is ONLY about is the legacy of one man, Ferdinand Porsche. He threw his hat in with the Nazis and designed weapons for them and built weapons using forced labor. He has to bear responsibility for that. Not his car company, not Germany in general, not every person named Ferdinand; it's his legacy and his alone. For that reason, he doesn't get to have a street named after him, boo ****ing hoo.
      Quote Originally Posted by Mach700 View Post
      In the absence of Wars, people become lazy and sex slaves (not everybody).

    22. Banned seadoo2006's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:29 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by dj_cronic_metal View Post
      If history is doomed to repeat itself then all this does it keep the previous history fresh in your mind for the same thing to happen again. There's nothing to learn from it...



      Literally evil incarnate eh? Differing opinions on this issue i'm sure. Looking past our opinions on the subject for a moment I guess we could take a quick look at Muslims. Towers go down, Americans are dead, and Muslim group says we did it. By your logic we should hate every Muslim that we meet because of the actions of an individual or group of people purely based on geographic preferences??

      Also while were on the subject go ahead and throw out your tv, your stereo, your smart phone and just about every other electronic device you owned because while were at it the Chinese pushed us back in North Korea, Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and lets give up Pizza because the Italians were in line too! People that dwell on the past are hippocrits this is proof of it.
      No, the Nazi's were the extremist sect of the German population, likewise the Taliban and al Queda were the extremist sect of the Islamic population, as with the Japanese military under Hirohito, and the Italian fascists.

      It is not bad to hate the groups that are responsible for what happened.

    23. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:43 AM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by Crimping Is Easy View Post
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most prominent German businessmen of that time part of the 3rd Reich because they had to be? What other choice did they have? I'm sure that had Porsche refused to help the Nazis, he would've been imprisoned or killed.
      He was an independent businessman - so, no - he simply would not have received any business. At first, no government business, and later likely also none from other significant corporations. And probably at one point no loans. At one point, the Nazis had successfully infiltrated all public and private organizations, so life for non-party-member professionals became increasingly difficult (but not impossible).

      As to who saw the Nazis rosy-eyed after the war and who didn't, that depended much on how much they profited or benefited, and how much they suffered. Think similar to Gaddafi supporters until the last minutes.

      Since the majority didn't benefit but suffered one way or another, majority public opinion soon turned against the Nazis after the war. But it wasn't a huge majority (e.g., many of the millions of Germans who had lost everything in formerly German-settled regions in the East blamed the allies and their new border drawings for their losses - not the Nazis). It also took a couple of decades for Germans to be educated about what really happened during the war - many had been politically naive and rather ignorant (well, otherwise they wouldn't have voted in the Nazis in the first place).
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    24. Senior Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:53 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      It also took a couple of decades for Germans to be educated about what really happened during the war - many had been politically naive and rather ignorant (well, otherwise they wouldn't have voted in the Nazis in the first place).
      To be frank, people would vote for anybody who would promise bringing Germany back to its feet, which at that stage was practically collapsed. national Socialist party with Hitler as its loudest member promised and delivered just that before 1936.
      “I would request that my body in death be buried not cremated, so that the energy content contained within it gets returned to the earth, so that flora and fauna can dine upon it, just as I have dined upon flora and fauna during my lifetime” - Neil deGrasse Tyson.

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      10-04-2012 02:20 AM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
      To be frank, people would vote for anybody who would promise bringing Germany back to its feet, which at that stage was practically collapsed. national Socialist party with Hitler as its loudest member promised and delivered just that before 1936.
      Yes, but he was more than a populist - Mein Kampf was freely available since 1925 and sold over 10 million copies. So, who wanted, could read in black on white where things would be going.
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