Jetta died while driving, wont restart

[Silent99]

I have a 2002 VW Jetta GLS 1.8T. I was driving it one day when the car completely lost power and the engine appeared to die. The car will not restart now. When I turn the key all I get is a fast turning sound. Battery appears to be okay.

I put a scanner on it an got P1780 - communication issue between ecm and tcu from what I gather.

Found some threads that said it could possibly be a relay 109 issue, however I cannot locate a 109 relay underneath the dash. Here is a pic of the relays I see, note I already removed 377 the large relay that was to the right of 409. Any idea if it's labeled with another # or something?

[Silent99]

It's actually not a clicking sound, but when you turn the key its a spinning sound and that's it.

[carfreak01]

So the engine won't crank when you turn the key, but you hear a spinning sound. Does it sound like an electric motor? Could be the starter motor spinning but not engaging the flywheel.
It's odd that suddenly your car died while driving it.

A relay that could inhibit starting the engine if it fails is the black relay marked with 175 in your picture which is the Park/Neutral relay, check it, and also check relay 100, which is the load reduction relay.
Feed 12V to the relay and you should hear it click, if it doesn't then it means they aren't working

Relay 109 should be next to relay 175 but I don't know if all vehicles are equipped with it, looks like yours isn't.

[carfreak01]

Also, when is the last time you changed the timming belt to your car?
1.8T engines are severly damaged when the timming belt fails while engine is running.
If belt tears and you attempt to start the engine and crank it, you will do some damage to the valves.

When timming belt tears engine stops working, just like yours. The weird thing with your car is that you cannot crank the engine.

Just make sure the timming belt is OK before you attempt to turn the engine on.

[Silent99]

It doesn't seem like it's an electric spinning sound. I checked the timing belt from the top and it seemed to be tight, I'm not sure when it was last changed. I took the cover off the top and pulled it and it seems to be tight. Is there any other way to check it?

[Jayj]

So when you try to start the car is the engine turning over at all? I'm confused here. Have someone turn the key while you watch the timing belt. When a timing belt shreds teeth off the belt the engine loses compression and turns over really fast but you don't hear any compression as valves tend to bend/break. If the crank is turning and the cam isnt, only bad juju is in your future.

[Silent99]

It doesn't turn over at all only makes the spinning sound until you let go of the key. We did do that a couple months ago and the belt does not move.

[carfreak01]

The only sound that it could make with the key turned is the starter motor and the sound of the engine cranking.
You should have someone to turn the key and try to see if you can figure out where this noise is comming from.
With ignition on, can you turn the radio on? do you see the indicator lights of the cluster on? can you turn the head lights on?

[radlynx]

it seems a starter to me. remove your starter and manually power it and see if it engages. if it's just spinning, your starter might need replacing.

It doesn't turn over at all only makes the spinning sound until you let go of the key. We did do that a couple months ago and the belt does not move.

[Silent99]

Yeah it seems like a possibility. But this wouldn't cause the car to die while already running like it did would it?

[Silent99]

The only sound that it could make with the key turned is the starter motor and the sound of the engine cranking.
You should have someone to turn the key and try to see if you can figure out where this noise is comming from.
With ignition on, can you turn the radio on? do you see the indicator lights of the cluster on? can you turn the head lights on?

Going to double check today. But I know all the dash lights work, pretty sure radio and headlights do too. I'll try to put up a youtube video of what it's doing.

[carfreak01]

Like I said, it could be the starter motor. I would check that first. A relay that inhibits starting the engine, will prevent the starter from being energized and there will be no sounds when you turn the key.
The only weird thing is that the engine suddenly stopped working.

But if you cannot make the engine crank then you will not be able to diagnose any further.

If all electrical devices work then all fuses might be ok, I'm not saying that they are but it is a high possibility that all are OK. Do NOT start pulling fuses out of their socket with the battery hooked because you could cause a trouble code.

Make the engine crank and then diagnose why the engine suddenly stopped.

Good luck.

[radlynx]

you never know what a simple fix can do.

Like I said, it could be the starter motor. I would check that first. A relay that inhibits starting the engine, will prevent the starter from being energized and there will be no sounds when you turn the key.
The only weird thing is that the engine suddenly stopped working.

But if you cannot make the engine crank then you will not be able to diagnose any further.

If all electrical devices work then all fuses might be ok, I'm not saying that they are but it is a high possibility that all are OK. Do NOT start pulling fuses out of their socket with the battery hooked because you could cause a trouble code.

Make the engine crank and then diagnose why the engine suddenly stopped.

Good luck.

[Three3Se7en]

Symptoms point to timing belt failure. Engine shutting off while driving and not starting. Sorry bro, bad bad. Have someone crank over the engine and you watch the belt. If the belt does not move while the crank pulley spins the valves are toast. Trust me.

[Silent99]

So I made a video of what it's doing tonight and I also found something interesting. After attempting to start the car and leaving the key in the ON position you can hear a clicking or possibly an arcing noise coming from somewhere in the vicinity of the battery area. It stops as soon as you turn the key to the off position. And the clicking/arcing sound does change speeds, at times it gets faster.

I turned out all lights and could not see any arcing, moved some of the cabling around. Didn't see anything poke out at me, although I'll look again in the day time. The serpentine belt does turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hFJE...&feature=g-upl

[ps2375]

The serpentine belt does turn.

The serp belt turns and the timing belt does not turn = failed timing belt and 99.9% confirmed bent valves. I have seen exactly ONE 1.8T have a belt fail and not bend valves. It happened while the person was stopped at a stop sign.

[Jayj]

Even though you didn't crank it for long, I didn't hear compression.

[Silent99]

I scanned it with a vag-com today and got the following results.

BEFORE attempting to start:

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.0
Friday, 05 October 2012, 12:34:55:0


Chassis Type: 9M - VW Jetta IV
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,16,17,19,22,29,35,36,37,39,46,47,55 ,56,57,75,76

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06A-906-032-AWP.LBL
Controller: 06A 906 032 HF
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0006
Coding: 07550
Shop #: WSC 00066
3VWSE69M22M078618 VWZ7Z0A4054745
9 Faults Found:
16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1: Efficiency Below Threshold
P0420 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17837 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1429 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16684 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0300 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16688 - Cylinder 4: Misfire Detected
P0304 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16686 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0302 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16687 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0303 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
16725 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40): Implausible Signal
P0341 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16486 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P0102 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
18034 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
P1626 - 35-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09A-927-750.LBL
Controller: 09A 927 750 T
Component: AG5 Getriebe 09A 0162
1 Fault Found:
01166 - Engine Torque Signal
16-10 -- Signal Outside Specifications - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ASR.LBL
Controller: 1C0 907 379 K
Component: ASR FRONT MK60 0103
Coding: 0018945
Shop #: WSC 00066
3 Faults Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30
008 -- Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module
013 -- Check DTC Memory - Intermittent
01328 - Convenience System Data Bus
004 -- No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

AFTER attempting to start:

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.0
Friday, 05 October 2012, 12:38:00:0


Chassis Type: 9M - VW Jetta IV
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,16,17,19,22,29,35,36,37,39,46,47,55 ,56,57,75,76

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06A-906-032-AWP.LBL
Controller: 06A 906 032 HF
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0006
Coding: 07550
Shop #: WSC 00066
3VWSE69M22M078618 VWZ7Z0A4054745
9 Faults Found:
16804 - Catalyst System; Bank 1: Efficiency Below Threshold
P0420 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
17838 - Circuit for Brake Vacuum Pump: Open or Short to Plus
P1430 -- 35-00 - -
16697 - Misfire(s) Detected; Reason: Lack of Fuel
P0313 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16692 - Cylinder 8: Misfire Detected
P0308 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16700 - SAE - Engine Misfire Detected on Startup (First 1000 Revolutions)
P0316 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16692 - Cylinder 8: Misfire Detected
P0308 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16739 - Ignition Control Circuit for Cylinder 5: Malfunction
P0355 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16492 - Manifold / Barometric Pressure Sensor (G71) / (F96): Signal too High
P0108 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
18040 - Accelerator Position Sensor (G79): Power Supply Malfunction
P1632 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09A-927-750.LBL
Controller: 09A 927 750 T
Component: AG5 Getriebe 09A 0162
1 Fault Found:
01166 - Engine Torque Signal
16-10 -- Signal Outside Specifications - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ASR.LBL
Controller: 1C0 907 379 K
Component: ASR FRONT MK60 0103
Coding: 0018945
Shop #: WSC 00066
3 Faults Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30
008 -- Implausible Signal - Intermittent
01315 - Transmission Control Module
013 -- Check DTC Memory - Intermittent
01328 - Convenience System Data Bus
004 -- No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

[Silent99]

The serp belt turns and the timing belt does not turn = failed timing belt and 99.9% confirmed bent valves. I have seen exactly ONE 1.8T have a belt fail and not bend valves. It happened while the person was stopped at a stop sign.

The serpentine belt turns and timing belt does not. However the timing belt looks tight, unless its stripped. Car has 93K miles. So basically if the serp belt moves and timing belt doesn't, valves are gone and there's it wouldn't run anyway?

[ps2375]

Look at the bottom of the timing belt cover. You may see the teeth of the timing belt laying there.

[radlynx]

looks like you broke something around the timing belt area... don't crank it anymore. open it up and see what happened. you may have to upper part of the engine and see how much damage you have. or if you have a tool with the camera that you can insert in the spart plug hole to see if the pistons hit the valve, then you can decide to remove the top part. maybe you didn't damage it but unlikely.

The serpentine belt turns and timing belt does not. However the timing belt looks tight, unless its stripped. Car has 93K miles. So basically if the serp belt moves and timing belt doesn't, valves are gone and there's it wouldn't run anyway?

[ps2375]

The serpentine belt turns and timing belt does not. However the timing belt looks tight, unless its stripped. Car has 93K miles. So basically if the serp belt moves and timing belt doesn't, valves are gone and there's it wouldn't run anyway?

Again, with these symptoms, the belt has failed. You can try and replace the belt and see what happens. But, again, 99.99% that you have bent valves.