VW announces 2013 Jetta Hybrid pricing

[romanl]

Nobody gets mad but some of us get a but doubtful when talk comes up about beating on a TDI all day and getting 45+ MPG or or easy super amazing fuel economy is. Because for some reason real life averages for thousands of owners on websites like fuelly don't match this expectation.

some truth in that.
driving hard all day and getting 45mpg is not realistic, i agree.
driving normal i get 45 easy. (have fuelly tracked every singlee fill up since day one, to back this up)

but it is commonly agreed on that TDI's do exceed EPA estimates of 34MPG for current new TDI's
according to Fuelly or fueleconomy.gov current TDI's most average around 40-43MPG,
and thats 20%+ over EPA
and this is the part that alot of people like to overlook.

[Sporin]

Overall, I'm all for more fuel efficient options on the market, no matter the powertrain.

It will be interesting, however, to see how VW markets this since they've spent the last decade convincing their buyers that hybrids are lame and diesels are the best.

[Turbio!]

according to Fuelly or fueleconomy.gov current TDI's most average around 40-43MPG,
and thats 20%+ over EPA
and this is the part that alot of people like to overlook.

Uh, no they don't. Current TDIs' average reported fuel economy - incorporating all Fuelly TDI drivers regardless of driving habits - is below 40, and 43mpg is pretty far on the right side of the bell curve. Diesels beat EPA estimates when they're driven at constant high load, which the EPA test doesn't really cover. When they're driven in urban and suburban environments, they're right on target.

If you regularly average 45mpg, you're in a small minority among Fuelly drivers. Forgive my skepticism, but I believe 45mpg claims for TDIs only when they involve fast highway cruising. Nothing personal, and I don't really mean to call you out in particular, but TDI drivers tend to overstate their results just a tad around here - so I'll cheerfully cop to some baggage about upper-quartile MPG claims.

[Hajduk]

Uh, no they don't. Current TDIs' average is below 40.

39 mpg is the average for the current Jetta TDI sedans. That's 15% over the EPA estimate.

By comparison:

2.5L Jetta owners average exactly what the EPA estimates.

Toyota Prius owners average just below their EPA estimates

Sonata Hybrid owners average 3 mpg less than EPA estimates.

Previous Fusion Hybrid also owners average 2 mpg less.

[romanl]

Uh, no they don't. Current TDIs' average reported fuel economy - incorporating all Fuelly TDI drivers regardless of driving habits - is below 40, and 43mpg is pretty far on the right side of the bell curve. Diesels beat EPA estimates when they're driven at constant high load, which the EPA test doesn't really cover. When they're driven in urban and suburban environments, they're right on target.
If you regularly average 45mpg, you're in a small minority among Fuelly drivers. Forgive my skepticism, but I believe 45mpg claims for TDIs only when they involve fast highway cruising.

2011 GOLF TDI (both DSG and MT) i grabbed 2011 year because it had most cars on FUELLY
39-42 MPG has the highest number of cars


and here are 4 cars diff years/models (2 auto 2 mt side by side) look at user ratings FAR FAR exceeding EPA


and if im in a small minortiy % of TDI drivers or not, here are my last 25 fill ups.
as you can see i dropped below 40 MPG only twice
majority of my driving is between Long Beach to near Santa Monica in I405 traffic, 30 miles each way. about 1 hour every morning and 1 hour every afternoon,
date miles gal MPG price
94 9/27/12 584.1 13.80 42.3 4.339
93 9/21/12 557.0 12.78 43.6 4.339
92 8/27/12 518.4 11.88 43.6 4.359
91 8/24/12 532.4 11.93 44.6 4.399
90 8/21/12 577.8 12.72 45.4 4.299
89 8/11/12 605.2 13.38 45.2 4.200
88 7/29/12 551.1 11.91 46.3 3.979
87 7/22/12 615.7 13.38 46.0 3.999
86 7/19/12 701.3 14.22 49.3 3.939
85 7/8/12 683.2 14.57 46.9 4.299
84 7/6/12 564.8 13.08 43.2 3.999
83 7/1/12 642.3 13.61 47.2 3.999
82 6/30/12 573.7 12.60 45.5 3.779
81 6/23/12 589.7 13.70 43.1 3.899
80 6/16/12 555.1 13.19 42.1 3.899
79 6/6/12 590.7 12.82 46.1 4.139
78 5/20/12 600.8 14.08 42.7 4.179
77 5/7/12 595.2 14.02 42.4 4.279
76 4/27/12 553.1 13.70 40.4 4.279
75 4/14/12 590.7 13.70 43.1 4.299
74 4/1/12 623.9 13.02 47.9 4.539
73 3/30/12 631.3 13.97 45.2 4.339
72 3/8/12 560.5 13.84 40.5 4.399
71 2/28/12 501.8 13.04 38.5 4.499
70 2/13/12 512.8 12.89 39.8 4.159

[kraut_pauer79]

Because it looks like a normal car and drives like a normal car.

It's no worse to drive than a Jetta 2.5 or TDI.

There are people who are turned off by the look and drive of the Prius. VW isn't looking to nab the people who buy the Prius as an appliance.

I think they'll get people who now aren't perspective hybrid drivers. Maybe they were considering a regular Jetta or TDI Jetta.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this. I have enough seat time in a new loaded Prius to state that I do not like the car at all, short of its fuel economy. I hate the looks, ergonomics, swaths of the cheapest looking materials, the jarring ride, and surprisingly bad road and wind noise. The Jetta Hybrid should be more in line with a car as good as the Fusion Hybrid - something that offers much more well-damped suspension and pleasant handling, and a more pleasing "normal" car interior and ergonomical layout. Plus 7-speed DSG as opposed to a goddamned CVT is just icing on the cake.

[Turbio!]

2011 GOLF TDI (both DSG and MT) i grabbed 2011 year because it had most cars on FUELLY
39-42 MPG has the highest number of cars

We're talking about Jettas in this thread, but even so, no. There's clearly more cars below 40mpg than above - see that little peak at around 37? It's a very skewed distribution, and the median is lower than the mode. A larger number of drivers report 40mpg average than any other average, but the bulk of the drivers there are reporting below 40mpg as their average.

Remember, this is all an answer to the statement that TDI owners can expect 45mpg combined. We can argue about the numbers all we want, but that statement wasn't accurate.

and here are 4 cars diff years/models (2 auto 2 mt side by side) look at user ratings FAR FAR exceeding EPA

I don't doubt that many drivers, especially those who self-select to report their fuel economy in public, exceed their fuel economy estimates for a variety of reasons.

and if im in a small minortiy % of TDI drivers or not, here are my last 25 fill ups.
as you can see i dropped below 40 MPG only twice
majority of my driving is between Long Beach to near Santa Monica in I405 traffic, 30 miles each way. about 1 hour every morning and 1 hour every afternoon,

And that's great for you, and I don't doubt you personally, especially since your driving is done pretty close to standard temp and pressure in California, near the coast. But as a group, TDI drivers can, statistically, expect to average 40mpg or under. If they do, that's gravy, but I wouldn't lead anybody to believe that's par for the course - it's more like getting a birdie.

[Spax MC]

not that it matters much but does it still have a beam or independent like a gli?


oh and average for my dsg tdi is around 36 mpg for mixed city and some highway, highest highway was 48, average highway 42

[chris@revotechnik]

average speed for that trip I think said 69mph?

stock software.. dpf status up for debate

That was from GA to WV going through the mountains on 77 and 81, plus the hills of GA and SC on 85, just me but had the entire back filled with ezups and show supplies.

[Swallow Doretti]

Not only is it far nicer inside...it costs essentially the same as the Jetta Hybrid, so Im not sure why you think it is so expensive.

A similarly appointed Fusion will run between $1000 and $2000 more (though I'd MUCH rather pay for the Fusion).

The other question is how the Jetta drives. The Toyota Hybrids are excellent. The Ford Hybrids are even better. But some other companies (Nissan, Hyundai) have really stumbled with hybrids, and you would have thought they would have done better.

Also of note: the new Mazda 6 Hybrid will be at the same--or slightly lower--price point as well, and Toyota apparently helped in development.

[Professor Gascan]

Well, the engine light is on, so it's definitely a VW. Not sure about the glow plugs, while running, in 84°F weather though.

[feels_road]

So only NOW, after VW releases one, you're a hybrid defender?

Obviously, you not only don't know me at all, but you are trolling big time. Just leave. Right now.

Is this a Volkswgen with a big battery....cause.....NO.

It seems you are trying to insinuate VWs and electricity don't go well hand-in-hand, today. I disagree. Recent VWs have improved quite a bit, in reliability (the 2.5 Golf has higher reliability according to CR than the average Honda or Toyota). But even some (selected?) of those of 10 - 20 years ago were not that bad. I have driven > 350,000 miles in old VWs, and the only electric problems I have had are: batteries needed to be changed every 5 years or so; I have had one light bulb holder break that I fixed myself, a wiper motor, a rear light housing, and a $150 ABS module fix. That's it, and that is in cars averaging more than 12 years/ 120,000 miles.

I have owned my TDI for 2 1/2 years with zero problems. Germany also designs and implements all the electrics and electronics in air buses. They seem to be just fine... YMMV.

Thank you VWOA marketing assistant.

Yes, anytime someone reports on a new market choice, they are automatically corporate marketing assistants. In TCL, they may be personally interested a car or technology or in what other drivers think - but, naah - they are paid pundits, for sure.

You truly disappoint me.

[Shomegrown]

Well, the engine light is on, so it's definitely a VW. Not sure about the glow plugs, while running, in 84°F weather though.

That's because he ripped out all the emissions equipment and screwed with the tune.

[romanl]

We're talking about Jettas in this thread, but even so, no. There's clearly more cars below 40mpg than above - see that little peak at around 37? It's a very skewed distribution, and the median is lower than the mode. A larger number of drivers report 40mpg average than any other average, but the bulk of the drivers there are reporting below 40mpg as their average.
Remember, this is all an answer to the statement that TDI owners can expect 45mpg combined. We can argue about the numbers all we want, but that statement wasn't accurate.
I don't doubt that many drivers, especially those who self-select to report their fuel economy in public, exceed their fuel economy estimates for a variety of reasons.
And that's great for you, and I don't doubt you personally, especially since your driving is done pretty close to standard temp and pressure in California, near the coast. But as a group, TDI drivers can, statistically, expect to average 40mpg or under. If they do, that's gravy, but I wouldn't lead anybody to believe that's par for the course - it's more like getting a birdie.

honestly guy, i dont know why we're arguing,
as i said before i welcome any new tech that further improves current vehicles and efficiency.
i prefer TDI over Hybrid, but day might come when that might change.
but im not sure about your statement in regards to fueleconomy numbers i posted, what exactly do you think people report on when posting their average MPGs,? do you think they are all making numbers up?
o and just to be clear, i went back to Fuelly same filter, and counted all cars.
MPG 39 and under total cars = 131
MPG 40 and over total cars = 151
so seems majority do average over 40,
whatever that average number is, i hope you agree that is far exceeds EPA claims , where hybrids / gas cars tend to just hit them or come in under, thats all i leave in peace

[romanl]

IMO the bulk of Jetta hybrid drivers won't average 45 mpg either. Remember, the very gradual accel and decel nature of the EPA tests is more or less an ideal situation for hybrids. Real users won't use them in such an ideal way in the realworld, which is why most hybrids don't live up to their EPA figures under normal driving.
As I stated before (and I'll post more specifics later), I compared the Jetta hybrid and Passat DSG TDI under identical driving conditions and the TDI did better in most situations.
That's not saying the Jetta is bad, it's just saying that most any efficiency advantage the Jetta has on paper will disappear on the real world unless the bulk of your driving is extreme stop and go.

[feels_road]

That's because he ripped out all the emissions equipment and screwed with the tune.

Speaking of which, this threads needs more perfect tune to keep new-car consumers in tune with any new fuel-saving technology...

[Remedy]

And this is the issue. The Prius has better fuel economy and a stronger brand, and it costs the same. What reason do I have, as a prospective hybrid buyer, to go VW?

Soul.

[chris@revotechnik]

That's because he ripped out all the emissions equipment and screwed with the tune.

stock software..

[feels_road]

VW put a lot of focus on making it drive like a normal sporty sedan. It's a much better drive than the Prius. And as others have noted in this thread, it has the styling and packaging that some are more interested in. I hate the center gauges and spaceship styling of the Prius.

Many seem to agree - but then the public isn't putting their money where their mouth is. The Prius is really the only hybrid that sells in good numbers (unless something has changed the past few months; haven't paid attention). I think that's where VW has their work cut out for them, if they really aim at selling a good number of these (rather than just showcasing technology).

As I stated before (and I'll post more specifics later), I compared the Jetta hybrid and Passat DSG TDI under identical driving conditions and the TDI did better in most situations.

Please do! The Jetta hybrid may actually be heavier than a Passat TDI- haven't looked at the specs, yet. And the emissions of the Passat TDI are a bit more efficient that those of the Jetta TDI.

[Dawg Dee-Lux]

Many seem to agree - but then the public isn't putting their money where their mouth is. The Prius is really the only hybrid that sells in good numbers (unless something has changed the past few months; haven't paid attention). I think that's where VW has their work cut out for them, if they really aim at selling a good number of these (rather than just showcasing technology).

Please do! The Jetta hybrid may actually be heavier than a Passat TDI- haven't looked at the specs, yet. And the emissions of the Passat TDI are a bit more efficient that those of the Jetta TDI.

Also, the times they are a changin - right now the Norwegian government is debating an outright ban for diesel vehicles in inner cities when the winter smog is really bad. For me this will be really bad, since granted I don't work in town, but I have to drive about 700m past the no-diesels line to get to work.

[feels_road]

Also, the times they are a changin - right now the Norwegian government is debating an outright ban for diesel vehicles in inner cities when the winter smog is really bad. For me this will be really bad, since granted I don't work in town, but I have to drive about 700m past the no-diesels line to get to work.

Yeah, I was focused on the US market. But is the above really going to happen, with the very latest Euro emission standards? New Diesels emit much less soot and less NO_x and volatiles than gasoline engines.

[Steveo989]

I really don't see how VW is going to move many units of the Jetta Hybrid... If I read correctly, the customer has to order a model rather than driving it right off the lot. Next, at $24,000, what's to prevent someone from buying a Toyota Prius C, Honda CRZ, Toyota Prius 3rd gen. You will get at least 5 mpg better, and over the life of the car that adds up to a significant difference. Not to mention, I would trust a Honda/Toyota battery cell tech and powertrain much more than VW that is just now entering the Hybrid market.

I guess to a certain extent a battery is a battery and vw has the money for R&D. However, that will never beat the volume that Toyota has moved in the last ten years. This obviously gives them the upper-hand in terms of economies of scale, and just overall testing in the real world via its customers.

I tend to think of VW as the driving enthusiasts car, I don't see how this will attract the greenies when there are Toyotas getting better mileage at the same price. Now, if you go with the max spec'ed VW you can afford a Plug-in Toyota that will yield around 80+MPG. It's a tough sell, the only market I think there is to capture are the people that want a hybrid, but don't want to be stuck with the liberal douche-bag label of the stereotyped Prius owner. Just my $.02.

[leaftye]

I really don't see how VW is going to move many units of the Jetta Hybrid... If I read correctly, the customer has to order a model rather than driving it right off the lot. Next, at $24,000, what's to prevent someone from buying a Toyota Prius C, Honda CRZ, Toyota Prius 3rd gen. You will get at least 5 mpg better, and over the life of the car that adds up to a significant difference. Not to mention, I would trust a Honda/Toyota battery cell tech and powertrain much more than VW that is just now entering the Hybrid market.

I guess to a certain extent a battery is a battery and vw has the money for R&D. However, that will never beat the volume that Toyota has moved in the last ten years. This obviously gives them the upper-hand in terms of economies of scale, and just overall testing in the real world via its customers.

I tend to think of VW as the driving enthusiasts car, I don't see how this will attract the greenies when there are Toyotas getting better mileage at the same price. Now, if you go with the max spec'ed VW you can afford a Plug-in Toyota that will yield around 80+MPG. It's a tough sell, the only market I think there is to capture are the people that want a hybrid, but don't want to be stuck with the liberal douche-bag label of the stereotyped Prius owner. Just my $.02.

It's the hybrid for those that care more about it being a vw or german than being good.

[GoFaster]

I frankly doubt those people were in the market for a hybrid to begin with, seeing as other "normal" looking and driving hybrids have struggled mightily in the marketplace. I don't think the Jetta offers anything that the tepid-selling Civic, Camry, Altima, and Accord hybrids don't or didn't, and my years on this site lead me to doubt mightily that VW fans are so interested in hybrids that a dedicated Jetta intender would be terribly tempted.

Among current and recent past production hybrids:
Prius has terrible driving dynamics. (Yes, I've driven one and hated it.)
Civic hybrid has little advantage in terms of economy and a big disadvantage in terms of performance (and price tag, and trunk space) compared to a plain ordinary Civic.
Camry current hybrid model seems to be selling OK considering the number that I see on the road. The current model vastly improves on the old one - which was unremarkable. Driving dynamics are typical Toyota ... dull as dishwater.
Hardly anyone knew the Altima hybrid existed.
The previous Accord hybrid was a high-performance hybrid - an answer to a question that nobody was asking. The same can be said for several Infiniti and Lexus hybrids. There is a new Accord hybrid just being introduced, but it's not in showrooms yet so it is too soon to see if it will sell.
The Hyundai doesn't appear to get sufficiently better real-world mileage than the plain-jane 4-cyl automatic to interest many people. (From fueleconomy.gov 33.3mpg versus 28.9mpg)

It obviously remains to be seen how VW will do with this. The two hybrids that are of interest to me, are the Jetta hybrid and the new Ford Fusion hybrid.

[feels_road]

I really don't see how VW is going to move many units of the Jetta Hybrid... If I read correctly, the customer has to order a model rather than driving it right off the lot.

That's only for the cheapest model. They will be advertized to make the car seem reasonably affordable - but you won't see them in the show rooms (or not many).

[Sporin]

I really don't see how VW is going to move many units of the Jetta Hybrid...

Realistically, outside of the Prius, no one moves many units of their hybrid.

[ATL_Av8r]

Fuelly is not a valid representative sample for a population of any given vehicle. That's like polling Stormfront to see how many people are going to vote for Obama

[Turbio!]

Fuelly is not a valid representative sample for a population of any given vehicle. That's like polling Stormfront to see how many people are going to vote for Obama

I lol'd.

[Sporin]

I would actually hypothesize that Fuelly numbers skew higher then the norm since people that track their MPG are necessarily more focused on it.

[Shomegrown]

I would actually hypothesize that Fuelly numbers skew higher then the norm since people that track their MPG are necessarily more focused on it.

Agreed, though when comparing between cars that escentially cancels out.

[Swallow Doretti]

Realistically, outside of the Toyota, no one moves many units of their hybrid.

Partially fixed it, but still not really true, because Ford also does well, and amazingly, Hyundai and Kia sell every hybrid they build at about sticker (and, to be clear, the Korean hybrids are CRAP).

But besides Ford and Toyota, how many other companies have really been serious about hybrids?

[Sporin]

True enough, a real dedication to the tech is necessary... GM certainly never had it.

[vwgtiIII]

isn't the TDI easily capable of 45 mpg combined?

Not easily but it is within reason. I'm averaging 44.5mpg with over 12k since May. The aspect to concern with is the EPA vs. real-world numbers. The TDI EPA numbers are like 39mpg combined and are typically underestimates of the real world. Whether the hybrid is over/underestimated is what will be the interesting piece.

[Saintor]

39 mpg is the average for the current Jetta TDI sedans. That's 15% over the EPA estimate.

It is not a diesel thing. On fuelly the 85 2012 Civic excluding hybrid also gets approx 10-15% over EPA estimate at 35mpg. And this might include some Si.