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    Thread: It's Official: Schumacher is Retiring (again)

    1. Member RacingManiac's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:24 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      Pardon me? Monaco 1984? Best car?

      I don't think you can dismiss Fangio as it being the "best car". There are drivers who win by mediocre margins with the car barely twitching (Schumacher) and then there are drivers who slide, twitch, near miss and fight their way to the finish by a large margin using every ounce of tire/throttle the car had. (Villeneuve/Fangio/Senna). Go watch a video of Senna trying to find traction mid corner on and off the throttle.

      Villeneuve was ****ing crazy and it ended up killing him. He wasn't happy unless he found the limit and stepped over it. His theory was if you didn't find the limit how did you know how fast you could go?

      The cars Fangio drove were extremely challenging. To say they were "the best" is a moot point. He drove the wheels off them and was head and shoulders above the competition, with a reputation as "The best driver of all time" that is still held in high regard 60 years later. 1957 German Grand Prix comeback at the Nurburgring. The "car" didn't make up that gap.

      I can't think of a single "masterful" drive that Schumacher had that made me say "holy ****, did he actually just pull that off?" He was a sore loser (running Villeneuve off track) and carried too inflated of an ego IMO.
      Cars don't slide anymore, tires don't work that way. Using that to judge if the car is hard or easy to drive is hardly the way to look at things. No doubt cars back then twitches and moves a lot more. But they also don't corner at 3+G and makes downforce.

      And yes you can have flashes of genius in a crappy car for memorable drives. But you don't pull together a championship run. Senna was not a title contender that 1984 season neither. 96's Ferrari was a POS, Irvine finished less than 50% of the races. MSC had 5 DNF, 1 DNS that year. He had 4/16 poles with that car scored 4 wins, of the 11 races that was finished, he finished outside of podium twice and finished 3rd in the championship. That year's winning Williams had the rest of the poles and wins(bar Panis in Monaco), and DH and JV finished 1-2.

    2. Member RacingManiac's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:25 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      Some of the many reasons why I didn't like him, poor sportsmanship. A true "Champion" wouldn't resort to such B.S. to win.
      Because Senna never ran Prost off the road on purpose...right.

    3. Member vortexblue's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:27 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      to a point. remember when massa was injured and they brought in (whats his name - cant recall now) and he was consistently in last or 2nd to last.
      Luca Badoer. Or as most called him "Look How Bad U R"

    4. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:30 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
      Cars don't slide anymore, tires don't work that way. Using that to judge if the car is hard or easy to drive is hardly the way to look at things. No doubt cars back then twitches and moves a lot more. But they also don't corner at 3+G and makes downforce.
      How is it hardly a way to look at things? If a car is planted to the road it's easier to drive fast. If it has more downforce it's easier to drive fast. If it has more neutral balance, guess what, it's easier to drive fast.

      I can hop in my 74 Datsun Z and then hop in my dad's new Nissan 370Z and see the obvious ability to corner faster and put down a faster lap. That's a given.

      How does that discredit anything I said about them being great drivers?

      As cars progress we may never see that kind of excitement or driver skill again in motorsports. A lot of the "seat of the pants feel" for a car has been shadowed by technology. I mean F1 is the mecca of technology in motorsports and we should progress forward.

      I'll put it this way. I, myself, do not think any F1 driver today could hop in the very cars that those men drove (Fangio/Senna/Villeneuve) and make the car dance the same dance on the edge the way those drivers did.

      It's all a matter of opinion, i'm not really arguing anything. You can't argue that he won championships, he did. It's not that he isn't a good driver, he is. I just don't think he's the best of all time or really anything that special.

    5. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:31 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
      Because Senna never ran Prost off the road on purpose...right.
      That was actually up to serious debate but we can leave it at that.

    6. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:37 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      I can't think of a single "masterful" drive that Schumacher had that made me say "holy ****, did he actually just pull that off?"
      Spain 1996.

    7. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:41 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
      Because Senna never ran Prost off the road on purpose...right.
      And many people see it as the opposite. Comparison of Prost's early turn-in at the end of the video. You have to know when you're beat on the inside. If there's no room to make the turn, you don't make the turn. Senna was NEXT to him before the corner. He didn't dive bomb him and hit him mid corner, Prost turned into Senna. BTW, I enjoy the healthy F1 debate and banter.


    8. Member RacingManiac's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:45 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      I'll put it this way. I, myself, do not think any F1 driver today could hop in the very cars that those men drove (Fangio/Senna/Villeneuve) and make the car dance the same dance on the edge the way those drivers did.
      At the same token I can't see Fangio or Gilles be able to drive the current cars today neither. Senna probably would be fine, but really he is already in the modern era. The technique and the handling of the vehicle from the old cars to new cars are not exactly the same neither. The advent of downforce alters the technique required to carry speed through the corner and the modern wide slicks makes the transition from grip to slip much finer. Its just not the same sports. Even looking at the last few years, the technique required from driving a blown diffuser car compare to ones without it is different also, and some driver suffered more than others(see Vettel v Webber). The winning driver of a given period are the ones thats most adapt to the given circumstances. You can't just say that the modern drivers don't have the same ability anymore, if all their career leading up to that point was in a downforce car with wide slicks and carbon brake. Just like you can't stick a Fangio in today's car if he doesn't even have the understanding of what downforce is.

    9. Member RacingManiac's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:46 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      And many people see it as the opposite. Comparison of Prost's early turn-in at the end of the video. You have to know when you're beat on the inside. If there's no room to make the turn, you don't make the turn. Senna was NEXT to him before the corner. He didn't dive bomb him and hit him mid corner, Prost turned into Senna. BTW, I enjoy the healthy F1 debate and banter.
      I can't see Youtube at work, so I don't know if this is the crash at the Chicane, or the turn one of the year after....because Senna DID run Prost off the road in turn 1 the year after....

    10. Member ROCK AND ROLL CHEVY's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:49 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      No, Cora's brother-in-law.

      I bet you'd like to "check her oil level" with your dipstick.

    11. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:50 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
      At the same token I can't see Fangio or Gilles be able to drive the current cars today neither. Senna probably would be fine, but really he is already in the modern era. The technique and the handling of the vehicle from the old cars to new cars are not exactly the same neither. The advent of downforce alters the technique required to carry speed through the corner and the modern wide slicks makes the transition from grip to slip much finer. Its just not the same sports. Even looking at the last few years, the technique required from driving a blown diffuser car compare to ones without it is different also, and some driver suffered more than others(see Vettel v Webber). The winning driver of a given period are the ones thats most adapt to the given circumstances. You can't just say that the modern drivers don't have the same ability anymore, if all their career leading up to that point was in a downforce car with wide slicks and carbon brake. Just like you can't stick a Fangio in today's car if he doesn't even have the understanding of what downforce is.
      I would disagree, I can't think of a modern car that is more difficult to drive than older cars. I mean even the meanest street cars of today with 600+ horsepower delivers the power in a much smoother way, that's just the nature of technology. Different, yes, and the way you drive them is definitely different. But I think they would adapt quite fine.

      Everything in all levels of racing has always been introduced to make the car easier to control, easier to go faster in. Suspension, brakes, aero. This is all very obvious. So it makes what those drivers of days gone by did that much more impressive.

      You won't convince me that it's every bit as difficult to drive, say, a modern Porsche GT car as it is to drive a race prepped 930 Turbo. Tire technology alone has increased adhesion and wear intervals immensely in motorsports.

    12. Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 01:53 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
      I can't see Youtube at work, so I don't know if this is the crash at the Chicane, or the turn one of the year after....because Senna DID run Prost off the road in turn 1 the year after....
      Apologies, I thought you were debating the chicane.

      Turn 1 was fueled by a lot of politics, revenge, grid selection changes. I think it was a little more complex than "I am a whiny baby and if I can't win nobody can". It wasn't "right" and was the focus of much debate. Yes you found ONE instance where Senna may have had a moment of weakness. Schumacher made sure to show time and time again just how much of an ******* he was. Much like Hamilton does today.

    13. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 02:15 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam144 View Post
      Apologies, I thought you were debating the chicane.

      Turn 1 was fueled by a lot of politics, revenge, grid selection changes. I think it was a little more complex than "I am a whiny baby and if I can't win nobody can". It wasn't "right" and was the focus of much debate. Yes you found ONE instance where Senna may have had a moment of weakness. Schumacher made sure to show time and time again just how much of an ******* he was. Much like Hamilton does today.
      I think your personal dislike of Schumacher is blinding you a bit here.

      One of the biggest indicators of Senna's greatness was how much better he was in the wet than everyone else. Schumacher was the same.

      For 13 straight years from 1994-2006, Schumacher was in the F1 title hunt. At 43 he is getting on the podium in a clearly inferior car. His time in the field's best car was maybe 3-4 years (01-04) out of the 13-year period of title contention.

    14. Member ROCK AND ROLL CHEVY's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 02:16 PM #39
      He's the Bret Farvrvre of racing.

    15. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 02:21 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by ROCK AND ROLL CHEVY View Post
      He's the Bret Farvrvre of racing.
      I would say Micheal Jordan.

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      10-04-2012 02:50 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by ryank View Post
      Of course that will always be up for debate, but in his prime, no one could even come close to Schumacher in the wet and his feel for the limit was always discussed as being scary good. Any one else remember that documentary where they reviewed telematry of Schumi vs. another F1 driver? The difference in the number of steering inputs vs. the other driver was astonoshing

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      10-04-2012 03:09 PM #42
      Fangio, Gilles, et al would completely lack the conditioning required to drive today's cars for a full race distance. Aside from the gulf of time, that would be the toughest thing for the previous generations of drivers.

      Aside from that, I think there was a bigger breadth in quality in F1 three or more decades ago. Damn near anyone could show up with a car and race. When ABBA is driving in F1, you know there is some crap talent in the field. It was easier for a driver to shine against people like that.
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      No, the real enthusiast vehicle would be the RX8. It combines V12 Lamborghini gas mileage with Hyundai Genesis 4cyl. performance.

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      10-04-2012 03:14 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by EL GOLFO DE MEXICO View Post
      Oh that's 1993 - Schumi wasn't in his prime yet

    19. Member dopaz's Avatar
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      10-04-2012 03:27 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      One of the biggest indicators of Senna's greatness was how much better he was in the wet than everyone else. Schumacher was the same.


      Quote Originally Posted by EL GOLFO DE MEXICO View Post





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      10-04-2012 03:35 PM #45
      I'd like to see all the current drivers put in an identical car and see the times.

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      10-04-2012 04:52 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by 8v_gti777 View Post
      I'd like to see all the current drivers put in an identical car and see the times.
      So would the rest of us..

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      10-04-2012 05:14 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by ATL_Av8r View Post
      Who is that guy? Ralf's brother?
      i literally lold..thank you

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      10-04-2012 05:35 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Swapped6n View Post
      i literally lold..thank you
      Quote Originally Posted by ATL_Av8r View Post
      Who is that guy? Ralf's brother?
      The carpet pissers did this?!

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      10-04-2012 06:29 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by 8v_gti777 View Post
      I'd like to see all the current drivers put in an identical car and see the times.
      They already tried that in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...e_of_Champions

      Also there is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Champions

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      10-04-2012 06:56 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by PlatinumGLS View Post
      I would say Micheal Jordan.
      You know when I first heard Schumacher's coming back, my first reaction was, "oh boy...he's making the same mistake as Jordan."

      When you're that good and you leave the sport after so many victories, coming back after multiple years of retirement will always be a let-down. Just like Magic & Favre. As competitive as he is, I'm sure he's not happy about how he's performed but I doubt he regrets is.

      Either way, I think it's the right time to quit permanently.

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