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    Thread: Volkswagen may build next Golf in Mexico

    1. Member ajd187's Avatar
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      10-05-2012 01:46 PM #71
      I don't think you'd see any quality issues with Puebla. They have been building cars there forever, and it's a state of the art facility.

      http://www.tirekick.com/TK07/VW-Puebla.htm

      My 09 Jetta Sportwagen (really a Golf wagon) is built there and seems fine.

      Most of the assembly is done by robots anyway. I would guess that a robot in Wolfsburg operated by an Eastern European immigrant is going to work the same as a robot operated by a Mexican in Puebla. After all both robots are probably running software built in Germany by Germans.

      This is also the #1 plant in North American auto production, two years running:
      http://wardsauto.com/plants-amp-prod...-volume-plants
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
      Still fail to see how a jacked up hatchback or wagon is better than the standard height one. Yes, putting the kid may require you to bend down a bit, but if the car is German, you're kind of used to that anyway.

    2. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      10-05-2012 06:49 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by MCTB View Post
      Another case of who gives a damn. Oh, and werent Golfs made in America in the 80s?
      Pennsyltucky, I think.

      Quote Originally Posted by whitekryptonite View Post
      Commi trash actually. I'm Russian.

      Yes I have an MKV R32. Sad that it is a DSG, but nonetheless a great car.( Which was fully built in Germany)

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      10-05-2012 08:44 PM #73
      So the real question is . . . . will people still run Euro plates on the front?
      I really wish everyone would update their location in their profile!

      Someone buy my car already!!

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      10-06-2012 11:13 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by NoDubJustYet View Post
      I don't think the MkIV Golf was ever built in Mexico? I thought the early ones were built in Germany and the later ones were from Brazil?

      you're right. i double checked the vin and it was made in brazil.
      "If your car 'feels like it's on rails,' then you're going too slow."

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      10-06-2012 12:13 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by ajd187 View Post
      Most of the assembly is done by robots anyway.
      This is an incorrect generalization of automation, but your point to automation in one region or the next is true for the most part.

      BODY SHOP - Robots are generally the realm of the BODY SHOP (i.e. Where the sheet metal comes together to create the unibody via welding/adhesion/fastening processes.). They are used in other places, too, but the majority will be found there. When most people envision robots in car plants, they see robots tooled with resistance spot welders welding various seams/joints/etc... all the while throwing sparks all over. While robots may offer better "hours per unit" metrics to those counting the cost of operators, their prime benefit is the repeatability and accuracy (and not missing a spot) of placing said welds vs. a human. That's important for obvious reasons, but probably especially so today as MFRs push the realm of efficiency not only in operations (the plant), but engineering (the design). If you think about it... the control of the components' adhesion/fastening/union allows for better correlation to what is being designed/simulated/verified on the computer model... be it actual packaging or FEA for the safety cell structure. Even though robots are highly used here, there generally are still machines and/or certain operations that require humans to do preliminary work when robots are deemed impractical and/or not feasible based on the process complexity. And that point should be remembered - COMPLEXITY. Robots are generally used in roles where ergonomics or safety are high and complexity of the job is low (i.e. Mundane roles that may drive repeatability/accuracy issues in a human.

      PAINT SHOP - I don't know for sure, but I don't think it was long before robots started welding for us that they started painting for us. The same benefits that hold true for welding holds true for painting. That and robots don't mind breathing the fumes. Well... they do have protective suits, but they don't sweat and piss and moan about it. Repeatability and accuracy... not to mention not missing a spot.

      TRIM & FINAL ASSEMBLY - I think different MFRs use different terms, but once the unibody is finished in the Paint Shop, it goes to a line or lines that begin the assembly of all of the component systems. Today several sub assembly lines can build up certain subsystems like chassis systems or interior systems. Or depending on the process philosophy of the MFR... all of those subsystems may be "buy parts" that are shipped directly to the Assembly Plant already assembled and ready to be installed into the body structure. In the old days... most all of these subsystems were done in-house, but as the MFRs decided to focus on "core competencies" (i.e. outsource)... these subsystems became the realm of the tier suppliers (JCI, Lear, Delphi, Magna, etc.). Anyways... robots are not generally used in this area, because the job of installing these subsystems are generally too complex for robots such that any attempt would create frankenstein machines that offer more maintenance headaches than operational value (i.e. Some jobs are better placed in human hands, because of the dexterity, coordination, flexibility, intellect, etc. that we have over robots.). It's not to say they aren't welcomed, because large items like windshields and their sealer/adhesive application are often done by robots for the same reason the robots are used in BODY & PAINT. Operators installing an IP sub assembly basically just need to guide the assemblage into the car, align to the locating features, seat the assemblage, get some fasteners, and run-down the fasteners. I don't know of the feedback controls for assuring fastening today in the world of General Assembly (vehicle assembly), but if it is like powertrain, it is as "easy" as monitoring proper torque and/or angle is met and then counting how many fastening cycles were done per unit (unit = vehicle).


      ROBOTS AREN'T SMART - Even though BODY & PAINT use robots, there can still be issues. Afterall... robots will only do what they are programmed. If something in the stampings are not right... the robot will not know any better. If their spot welding tools are not maintained well... it won't know any better (the controller for the welder will, though). Automation has its benefits for sure, but it is not the answer for everything "quality" related.

      MAN'S ROLE - At the end of the day... humans make the decisions, program the equipment, monitor the lines, maintain the operations, and even operate the machines. How well humans do that is the realm of the leadership/management who runs the operation and nurtures a MFG culture that motivates. And let's not forget those who design the products! MFG is a variable in the "quality" of a product for sure, but a lot of what MFG can or cannot do well is derived from the design. That's where principles like DFM/DFA came about. And then imagine all of this broken down to other levels... or tiers. The suppliers who sell the subsystems face the same challenges.

      MORE THAN ONE VARIABLE - There are TONS of variables that affect whether you like your purchase or not and while the origin may have an influence... it is but one tiny facet in a universe of potential influences! Heck... even the design of the automation/equipment cannot always be assumed to be good... or capable. Afterall... humans designed and built and program the machines. That's where procedures generally related to PROCESS CAPABILITY comes in. If said automation was not properly validated/verified/tested for proper functionality... you will have a problem. But then... how well it performs depends on each MFR's expectations as there is no one rule of thumb or standard.

      I'm now rambling. The point I'm trying to make is there are a lot of influences and any belief that any one variable is some how the most important is silly. Well... actually... there is one that I mentioned in an earlier post. The leadership is the key variable. In a perfect world... everyone would be equally responsible, but unfortunately modern business revolves around "leaders" making the critical decisions that drive/influence nearly everything that happens. That doesn't mean the grunts are free of accountability. No way! We swim together or sink separately.
      Last edited by uncleho; 10-06-2012 at 12:23 PM.

    6. Geriatric Member ATL_Av8r's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 12:30 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by whitekryptonite View Post
      I bought my R32 because it was built in Germany.
      That's the dumbest reason I ever heard for buying a certain car
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      Quote Originally Posted by .skully.
      Mike, quote me in your signature

    7. Geriatric Member ATL_Av8r's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 12:32 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by unimogken View Post
      So the real question is . . . . will people still run Euro plates on the front?
      I'm stocking up on Quintana Roo and Distrito Federale plates for pennies on the peso just in case.
      MemeGate 2012 - First Responder, post #2

      Quote Originally Posted by .skully.
      Mike, quote me in your signature

    8. Senior Member patrikman's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 01:00 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by ATL_Av8r View Post
      That's the dumbest reason I ever heard for buying a certain car
      He bought it used and then pissed and moaned about worn tires and suspension. You bought a used car and didn't look it over well, deal with it.
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    9. Member P-Body's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 01:05 PM #79
      I eagerly await the day when the Golf is defended for being manufactured in Mexico.
      Quote Originally Posted by teklord69 View Post
      Scenario: Uphill on two lane hwy. You need to pass and overtake a slower vehicle. That 151 torque won't let you. You will hit an oncoming car the opposite side if you do.

    10. Member KahviVW's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 03:52 PM #80
      If Mexican built Golfs are cheaper or better equipped, then I'm all for it.
      Quote Originally Posted by rich! View Post
      i'd lock this thread but i have no clue how...

    11. Member caj1's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 05:29 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by P-Body View Post
      I eagerly await the day when the Golf is defended for being manufactured in Mexico.
      Pretty exciting life you have there..

    12. 10-06-2012 05:53 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by KahviVW View Post
      If Mexican built Golfs are cheaper or better equipped, then I'm all for it.
      if it means more R models and an RS model i'm all for it

    13. Senior Member NoDubJustYet's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 05:55 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by KahviVW View Post
      If Mexican built Golfs are cheaper or better equipped, then I'm all for it.
      I seriously doubt the savings will be passed on to the consumer.

    14. Member Vamped's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 06:00 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by Klim18 View Post
      No mames wey!
      Its 'guay'.

      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      I wonder how people feel about their Iphone being build in China by child laborers.

      94% of your life is "made in China" and you are b!tching about your econobox being made in Mexico.
      Vamped Tuning! Scrappy Dubs!

    15. Geriatric Member VDub2625's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 06:17 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Ultraflux3 View Post
      All the Corrado hate. My Corrado was apparently assembled by Karmann, but the front inner fender sheet metal is stamped "hecho en mexico"
      Many parts were stamped in Mexico, the frame rails for A2 chassis cars (Golf, Jetta, and Corrado) for US consumption being one of them. Crumple zones and all.

      Also, it seemed pretty obvious to me that they meant the Golf will be built in Mexico for world consumption.
      Last edited by VDub2625; 10-06-2012 at 09:09 PM.
      A2Resource
      .......

    16. 10-06-2012 08:36 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post
      This is an incorrect generalization of automation, but your point to automation in one region or the next is true for the most part.

      BODY SHOP - Robots are generally the realm of the BODY SHOP (i.e. Where the sheet metal comes together to create the unibody via welding/adhesion/fastening processes.). They are used in other places, too, but the majority will be found there. When most people envision robots in car plants, they see robots tooled with resistance spot welders welding various seams/joints/etc... all the while throwing sparks all over. While robots may offer better "hours per unit" metrics to those counting the cost of operators, their prime benefit is the repeatability and accuracy (and not missing a spot) of placing said welds vs. a human. That's important for obvious reasons, but probably especially so today as MFRs push the realm of efficiency not only in operations (the plant), but engineering (the design). If you think about it... the control of the components' adhesion/fastening/union allows for better correlation to what is being designed/simulated/verified on the computer model... be it actual packaging or FEA for the safety cell structure. Even though robots are highly used here, there generally are still machines and/or certain operations that require humans to do preliminary work when robots are deemed impractical and/or not feasible based on the process complexity. And that point should be remembered - COMPLEXITY. Robots are generally used in roles where ergonomics or safety are high and complexity of the job is low (i.e. Mundane roles that may drive repeatability/accuracy issues in a human.

      PAINT SHOP - I don't know for sure, but I don't think it was long before robots started welding for us that they started painting for us. The same benefits that hold true for welding holds true for painting. That and robots don't mind breathing the fumes. Well... they do have protective suits, but they don't sweat and piss and moan about it. Repeatability and accuracy... not to mention not missing a spot.

      TRIM & FINAL ASSEMBLY - I think different MFRs use different terms, but once the unibody is finished in the Paint Shop, it goes to a line or lines that begin the assembly of all of the component systems. Today several sub assembly lines can build up certain subsystems like chassis systems or interior systems. Or depending on the process philosophy of the MFR... all of those subsystems may be "buy parts" that are shipped directly to the Assembly Plant already assembled and ready to be installed into the body structure. In the old days... most all of these subsystems were done in-house, but as the MFRs decided to focus on "core competencies" (i.e. outsource)... these subsystems became the realm of the tier suppliers (JCI, Lear, Delphi, Magna, etc.). Anyways... robots are not generally used in this area, because the job of installing these subsystems are generally too complex for robots such that any attempt would create frankenstein machines that offer more maintenance headaches than operational value (i.e. Some jobs are better placed in human hands, because of the dexterity, coordination, flexibility, intellect, etc. that we have over robots.). It's not to say they aren't welcomed, because large items like windshields and their sealer/adhesive application are often done by robots for the same reason the robots are used in BODY & PAINT. Operators installing an IP sub assembly basically just need to guide the assemblage into the car, align to the locating features, seat the assemblage, get some fasteners, and run-down the fasteners. I don't know of the feedback controls for assuring fastening today in the world of General Assembly (vehicle assembly), but if it is like powertrain, it is as "easy" as monitoring proper torque and/or angle is met and then counting how many fastening cycles were done per unit (unit = vehicle).


      ROBOTS AREN'T SMART - Even though BODY & PAINT use robots, there can still be issues. Afterall... robots will only do what they are programmed. If something in the stampings are not right... the robot will not know any better. If their spot welding tools are not maintained well... it won't know any better (the controller for the welder will, though). Automation has its benefits for sure, but it is not the answer for everything "quality" related.

      MAN'S ROLE - At the end of the day... humans make the decisions, program the equipment, monitor the lines, maintain the operations, and even operate the machines. How well humans do that is the realm of the leadership/management who runs the operation and nurtures a MFG culture that motivates. And let's not forget those who design the products! MFG is a variable in the "quality" of a product for sure, but a lot of what MFG can or cannot do well is derived from the design. That's where principles like DFM/DFA came about. And then imagine all of this broken down to other levels... or tiers. The suppliers who sell the subsystems face the same challenges.

      MORE THAN ONE VARIABLE - There are TONS of variables that affect whether you like your purchase or not and while the origin may have an influence... it is but one tiny facet in a universe of potential influences! Heck... even the design of the automation/equipment cannot always be assumed to be good... or capable. Afterall... humans designed and built and program the machines. That's where procedures generally related to PROCESS CAPABILITY comes in. If said automation was not properly validated/verified/tested for proper functionality... you will have a problem. But then... how well it performs depends on each MFR's expectations as there is no one rule of thumb or standard.

      I'm now rambling. The point I'm trying to make is there are a lot of influences and any belief that any one variable is some how the most important is silly. Well... actually... there is one that I mentioned in an earlier post. The leadership is the key variable. In a perfect world... everyone would be equally responsible, but unfortunately modern business revolves around "leaders" making the critical decisions that drive/influence nearly everything that happens. That doesn't mean the grunts are free of accountability. No way! We swim together or sink separately.
      If I had your address I'd mail you $5 for this.

      I just wanted to quote this in it's entirety because it's 100% true and everyone should read it before they make any comment on how their car is put together.

    17. 10-06-2012 08:44 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by ajd187 View Post
      This is also the #1 plant in North American auto production, two years running:
      http://wardsauto.com/plants-amp-prod...-volume-plants
      Production volume is irrelevant in this discussion.

      This is a more pertinent graphic:


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      10-06-2012 09:27 PM #88
      oh my god Volkswagens are german, this entire time i thought Volkswagens were made in Kazakhstan!!!
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      10-06-2012 09:28 PM #89
      what does its matter where they are built, its not like we're no longer going to like them or not drive them anymore just because its built in a certain place.
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    20. Member eiriksmil's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 09:42 PM #90
      I think Mexicans are more proud of VWs than the Germans are.. Just throwing that out there..

    21. 10-06-2012 09:43 PM #91
      The main thing I took away from this thread is that VWs made in Mexico are pieces of crap, and VWs made in Germany are pieces of crap.

      Am I doing it wrong?

    22. Member green tea's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 09:48 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by Klim18 View Post
      Hey. from past experience those iPhones are quality products, on the other hand, Mexico assembled MKAY4's not so much.
      that had more to do with VW going with the cheapest vendors for parts, etc. Unless your
      car was coming apart while you were driving it, i wouldn't blame the people putting it together.

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      10-06-2012 09:53 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by freddd View Post
      Production volume is irrelevant in this discussion.

      This is a more pertinent graphic:

      Is the pertinent fact the fact that there are no VW plants in the chart and that the winners are 5 Toyota, 2 Honda, 2 Daimler, 1 Porsche, and 1 Geely^H^H^H^H^HVolvo plant?

    24. Member dubjager's Avatar
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      10-06-2012 10:13 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by eiriksmil View Post
      I think Mexicans are more proud of VWs than the Germans are.. Just throwing that out there..
      Truth.

      I did think that the Puebla plant was at capacity? I might be wrong though, I though there were issues with the Beetle last year. Either way, it is all the same. I can tell no difference between my Brazilian Mark4 and my friends Mark4 in Croatia (which itself I believe is built in Bosnia).


    25. Member ajd187's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 02:06 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by freddd View Post
      Production volume is irrelevant in this discussion.
      I only brought it up because people were going "OMG it's made in Mexico" but the fact is that that is one of the busiest and longest running plants in North America. They know how to build cars there, which was the only point I was making.
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
      Still fail to see how a jacked up hatchback or wagon is better than the standard height one. Yes, putting the kid may require you to bend down a bit, but if the car is German, you're kind of used to that anyway.

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