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    Thread: Define "rare"

    1. 10-08-2012 02:29 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by C4 A6 View Post
      Point is, it's all subjective, but the basic concept should stem from production numbers.
      Minus attrition, which itself is a factor of years since manufacture, vehicle longevity and owner demos.
      call it potatography

    2. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 02:49 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      How do you define "rare" as it applies to cars?
      What is "rare" to me? Any car of which examples of number in the single digits. Once the numbers get above 10 you are talking "hard to find" but not "rare." Rare is when all the owners of the cars could all sit around a large dining room table and talk about them.

      Rare is not when they made 100,000 of your car and yours is one of the 900 red ones. That is not rare because there's still 899 cars exactly like it. I don't even consider a car rare when there's "only 90" of them made. That is a low production run, that's not "rare" either.

      Hard to find:


      Rare:


      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    3. Junior Member Topper Harley's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 02:54 PM #28
      ^well said. "Rare" is a commonly abused term nowadays. Good thread.

    4. 10-08-2012 02:59 PM #29
      "rare" can probably be better defined

      "valuable" is much more subjective

      a horse w/ a horn on its head is rare .... but if it can't sh!t gold, fly, cure sickness, grant wishes, its not "valuable"

    5. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 02:59 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by Topper Harley View Post
      ^well said. "Rare" is a commonly abused term nowadays. Good thread.
      It's laughable how abused it is when selling a car on CL or e-Bay.
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    6. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 03:28 PM #31
      Maybe there needs to be a sliding scale like 1-10 at "really rare" 10 to 100 as "rare" and 100-1000 as "kinda rare" and 1,000-10,000 "may become rare". I'm talking about survivors, not production numbers. I don't see how production numbers are relevant to how many remain.

      Rare, to me, means that I have something you want and I am the only source for it you can find.
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      10-08-2012 03:32 PM #32
      Lets get right to the bottom of this thread. If it isn't Barry's Continental, he doesn't consider it rare.

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      10-08-2012 03:37 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      Lets get right to the bottom of this thread. If it isn't Barry's Continental, he doesn't consider it rare.
      Why am I posting with two accounts in this thread...?

      Oh, forgot to change the one that's logged in on my phone

    9. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 03:37 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      It's laughable how abused it is when selling a car on CL or e-Bay.
      You mean like this?

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EX-L-...item2c68a3ffe1

      obin
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    10. Member dubjager's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 03:37 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      It's laughable how abused it is when selling a car on CL or e-Bay.
      True.

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      10-08-2012 03:37 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      Lets get right to the bottom of this thread. If it isn't Barry's Continental, he doesn't consider it rare.

    12. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 03:38 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      Lets get right to the bottom of this thread. If it isn't Barry's Continental, he doesn't consider it rare.
      You may think what you want, but I see hundreds, maybe thousands, of cars every summer that are far rarer and more valuable than any of my cars.
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      10-08-2012 03:39 PM #38
      It seems like when anyone discusses anything in the world of old cars, monitary value is associated with everything. If it's rare, it must be worth a lot. Something can only be collectable if it's worth a lot. You own a classic car? Oh, you must have paid a fortune for it! I don't think any of this is actually true.

      A rare car is simply something that doesn't exist in large numbers. I have no personal thought on a cut-off, but I think that total production numbers are far less important to me than relative "survival" numbers. There could have been 100k of car x produced in 1955, but if there's only 5 around today, the car is now rare. It certainly becomes a bit of a gray area when it comes down to trim levels. Convenience, color, or upholstery options mean very little to me. If the car you own is one of 5 with a brown dashboard, even if there are 10's of thousands of that actual car around, I would say the dashboard is rare and not the car. Oddly though, I would pay more attention and it would mean more to me if someone had a car with a rare performance option package--like a bigger engine or FI, coupled with a better suspension, and brakes for example. Though, the car on it's own would have to be rather interesting as well.

      I think though, if you equate rare with value, then you're only understanding half of the equation. Monetary value only comes into play when you add in this like desirability and personal worth to something that's rare. Barry's ultra rare Conti isn't worth much because not many people really care enough about it at the current time to warrant big money. Sometimes it's about the car just being known as a hunk of junk--I don't ever see a cadillac cimarron in any condition or mileage being worth more than a few grand for that very reason, even if it was the last one on earth. But I think cars like Barry's Conti don't go for more because most people don't even know they exist. There simply isn't enough of a hook or nostalgia around such a car to register with most people--IMO.

      And yet, there's a small group of people out there who would pay even larger sums of money for super clean Westfalia edition Vanagons. People can find significant value in some of the weirdest things.

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      10-08-2012 03:41 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      You may think what you want, but I see hundreds, maybe thousands, of cars every summer that are far rarer and more valuable than any of my cars.
      I'm basing it off of my observations of your posts on TCL. You seem very keen on swooping into "rare vehicle" threads and reminding everyone that your Lincoln is more rare than the object of discussion.

    15. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 03:42 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      I'm basing it off of my observations of your posts on TCL. You seem very keen on swooping into "rare vehicle" threads and reminding everyone that your Lincoln is more rare than the object of discussion.
      Really? Got a link?
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      10-08-2012 03:43 PM #41
      Back when Ford GT's were current models and most dealers were asking ridiculous premiums over MSRP, there was a website called FordGTPrices.com (don't know if it's still active or not.) Their contention was that the planned production of 3500 cars wasn't "rare" so there would be enough to go around at regular prices (4038 ended up being made) Some cars I do consider rare include the Porsche Carrera GT (1270), the 959 (337), the Bugatti Veyron (300), and the McLaren F1 (106.) My personal cutoff would be 3000 total production as being "kind of rare" but 1500 or less is probably a better number.
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      10-08-2012 03:48 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I don't see how production numbers are relevant to how many remain.

      Rare, to me, means that I have something you want and I am the only source for it you can find.
      Production numbers have everything to do on how rare a car is, but it's not the only factor. If they didn't make many of them, it's rare. If they made tons, but only few survived, it's rare.

      It also has nothing to do with desirability. Just because your Pontiac Aztek is rare, doesn't mean I want it.
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    18. Member S0RRY's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 03:50 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      Really? Got a link?
      Unicorn thread is the most recent example, however I'm not so desperate to make my point that I'm going to rifle through your post history. I think you have some good information and experience to share, but come off as a bit of an elitist sometimes.

    19. Member crookedarm's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 04:01 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      I think you have some good information and experience to share, but come off as a bit of an elitist sometimes.
      completely agree. not that you care nor should i.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ntinental+raRE

      "I have several cars that are rare and valuable. However, probably the rarest car I own is the least valuable.

      My newly acquired '33 Continental Flyer in great original condition is the most rare as so many were destroyed in the metal drives of WWII. It was more valuable as scrap steel as it was one of the very first all-steel bodies. I know of less than 10 in any body style that exist today."

    20. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 04:05 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by crookedarm View Post
      completely agree. not that you care nor should i.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ntinental+raRE

      "I have several cars that are rare and valuable. However, probably the rarest car I own is the least valuable.

      My newly acquired '33 Continental Flyer in great original condition is the most rare as so many were destroyed in the metal drives of WWII. It was more valuable as scrap steel as it was one of the very first all-steel bodies. I know of less than 10 in any body style that exist today."
      Was that not in the context of the thread?
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

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    21. Member crookedarm's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 04:12 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by S0RRY View Post
      I'm basing it off of my observations of your posts on TCL. You seem very keen on swooping into "rare vehicle" threads and reminding everyone that your Lincoln is more rare than the object of discussion.
      just a response to a post.

      no harm. no foul. no need to cranky.

      i have no clue what anyone on these forums drives by seeing a screen name, only you. its not necessarily good or bad, you've just made a lasting impression.

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      10-08-2012 04:25 PM #47
      rare is a very relative term. Anything cn be rare when compared to something that is much more abundant. For example...a 2008 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan with a 5-Speed transmission is rare. Accord sedan's arnt rare....Accord sedans with a manual transmissionre still not that rare, but finding one with leather and a manual is very very tuff. There simply arnt many out there.

      For me, any car that i can't find locally for sale on any given day....i would consider rare. clean (Low Mileage, 5-Speed, all original) E36 M3's are getting pretty rare, as i would have to travel many miles to purchase such a car. There simply arnt any around here...and the ones that do exist...i never see for sale. Cars tht were produced in low numbers (relative) are rare from from the start...cars like the Porsche 968. less the 5 thousand were sold in North America. Good luck finding a clean low mileage 6 Speed Coupe for sale close to home. Certain colors are VERY RARE. I don't find it to be abuse of the term by advertising your car as being rare if you have a Color that was produced in double digits. If i owned a Futura Yellow MKIV Jetta...i would most def. advertise it as being rare. Sure, Jetta's are common....but good luck finding another Futura Yellow Jetta for sale.....anywhere in the country for that matter. Its a Rare hard to find car in that specific color. And if thats the only color you want to buy...then that is most def. a rare hard to find car for you.

      If you are going to discredit a car as not being rare because of its single year color or the fact that there are millions of Accords and having one with a manual and leather with a 4cyl shouldnt be considered rare (even though the combo is very rare)...we can argue semantics all day and say barry's Continental isn't rare. Its a 356. There are many of those. Its a trim level just like EX-L 5MT is for the Accord Sedan. The name was chnged to 356A and very many of those were produced.

    23. Member 71camaro's Avatar
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      10-08-2012 04:33 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by crookedarm View Post
      completely agree. not that you care nor should i.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ntinental+raRE

      "I have several cars that are rare and valuable. However, probably the rarest car I own is the least valuable.

      My newly acquired '33 Continental Flyer in great original condition is the most rare as so many were destroyed in the metal drives of WWII. It was more valuable as scrap steel as it was one of the very first all-steel bodies. I know of less than 10 in any body style that exist today."
      That seems like a reasonable post to me......

      I wouldn't call my Camaro rare, it's a Camaro for God's sake, but it is comparably rare. When I go to Ocean City or Carlisle or some other large event I may see five other chrome bumper second-gens, and maybe only one other with the RS front (not just split bumpers, which many people do, but also different header panel, front valence, parking lights, tail lights, steering wheel, etc.). But I'll easily see fifty or a hundred '69s. Same with most smaller, local events. I'll be the only second gen, and there will be twenty or thirty first gens.

      Is it rare? No. They're out there and there's plenty of them, but when compared to the number of surviving or restored first gens or Novas or Chevelles or Mustangs, it is comparably rare.

      My S8, again, is it rare? One of 300 Final Edition cars, and one of 100 built in this color combination globally. Maybe one of eighty still in existence. The D2 Audi isn't rare, but compared to other Audi offerings of its time, it is. B5 S4s, Mk1 Audi TTs, etc., all exist in much higher numbers. Being rare didn't help its value either, an $88,000 sticker price, I picked it up nearly mint for $9,500 (which is a damned good value for the buyer, I've rarely been in a more comfortable highway cruiser, and I've ridden in some pretty nice stuff, think Bentley and the like).

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      10-08-2012 04:35 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by a2a4raddo View Post
      rare is a very relative term. Anything cn be rare when compared to something that is much more abundant. For example...a 2008 Honda Accord EX-L Sedan with a 5-Speed transmission is rare. Accord sedan's arnt rare....Accord sedans with a manual transmissionre still not that rare, but finding one with leather and a manual is very very tuff. There simply arnt many out there.

      For me, any car that i can't find locally for sale on any given day....i would consider rare. clean (Low Mileage, 5-Speed, all original) E36 M3's are getting pretty rare, as i would have to travel many miles to purchase such a car. There simply arnt any around here...and the ones that do exist...i never see for sale. Cars tht were produced in low numbers (relative) are rare from from the start...cars like the Porsche 968. less the 5 thousand were sold in North America. Good luck finding a clean low mileage 6 Speed Coupe for sale close to home. Certain colors are VERY RARE. I don't find it to be abuse of the term by advertising your car as being rare if you have a Color that was produced in double digits. If i owned a Futura Yellow MKIV Jetta...i would most def. advertise it as being rare. Sure, Jetta's are common....but good luck finding another Futura Yellow Jetta for sale.....anywhere in the country for that matter. Its a Rare hard to find car in that specific color. And if thats the only color you want to buy...then that is most def. a rare hard to find car for you.

      If you are going to discredit a car as not being rare because of its single year color or the fact that there are millions of Accords and having one with a manual and leather with a 4cyl shouldnt be considered rare (even though the combo is very rare)...we can argue semantics all day and say barry's Continental isn't rare. Its a 356. There are many of those. Its a trim level just like EX-L 5MT is for the Accord Sedan. The name was chnged to 356A and very many of those were produced.
      This sums up my sentiment well. Rare, valuable, and desirable aren't all the same. It's like a Venn diagram. There may be cars where all those qualities overlap, but they can also be mutually exclusive.

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      10-08-2012 04:39 PM #50
      From another site:

      I've always heard that the three things that determine a collectable's value are Rarity, Condition and Desirability (the old three-legged-stool thing).

      Of course, the most dynamic of the three is desireability (demand). As discussed 57 Chevy's are by no stretch, rare, but even in average condition, and even sedans (which back in the Fifties we thought were truly uncool) still seem to command a premium.

      The Mark II stool's desirability leg is a bit short.
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

      I am confident you are wrong, but instead of illustrating why, I will just make disparaging remarks about your reading comprehension.
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