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    Thread: Define "rare"

    1. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 11:29 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by Noah Fecks View Post
      you dont count. you see more cars in one day than most of these *******s do in a whole year. and out of 51 produced, 7 is still on the low side.
      I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's all about perspective. Obin has been posting very rare race and exotics that I wouldn't have thought of while my perspective is more along the lines of '50s cars and the Classics. I suppose there's validity in VW fanbois assessing some of their cars as rare. It's seeming that rare means a whole lot of different things to a whole lot of people.
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    2. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 11:42 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's all about perspective. Obin has been posting very rare race and exotics that I wouldn't have thought of while my perspective is more along the lines of '50s cars and the Classics. I suppose there's validity in VW fanbois assessing some of their cars as rare. It's seeming that rare means a whole lot of different things to a whole lot of people.
      im not a vw fanboi by any means. But i do recognize a rare car when i see one. And a Jasmin Yellow Corrado SLC is by all means very rare. In fact, i don't think i have ever seen one outside of pictures or get togethers. Its all relative at the end of the day. A 1994 porsche 964 Turbo S Flachbau is a very rare sight....even if it is an extremely rare trim level of a Porsche (964) which many of you guys here would not consider rare.

      Pictured below is a 1994 964 Turbo S Flachbau
      1 of 39 U.S. Versions, 1 of 66 Total Flachbaus built with 968 nose, 1 of 76 964 Flachbau built total (10 J-Spec cars were built with a 944 nose), and 1 of 93 Total 964 turbo S cars built and sold world wide (17 cars sold in the u.s. had the standard nose).
      Last edited by a2a4raddo; 10-09-2012 at 12:36 PM.

    3. 10-09-2012 12:18 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
      A trim level or package is an alteration to the existing chassis. The 968 is a chassis, the GTS is a trim level. The E86 Z4 is a chassis design, the M Coupe is a trim level. The E30/E36/E46 is a chassis, the M3 is a trim level. Simple.
      Sure that's simple.

      Which of those makes a car "rare" under the allowance of limited production?

      Because if you say there has to be less than 1000, well, 1000 of what? Of that trim, that make, that model, that chassis?

      I had a 1 of 2 1990 Caravan ES Turbo with a manual transmission.

      Big friggin' whoop, said everyone ever.
      call it potatography

    4. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 12:23 PM #104
      Just throwing this out there.

      Origin:
      1350–1400; Middle English < Latin rārus loose, wide apart, thin, infrequent

      Related forms
      rare·ness, noun

      Synonyms
      1. exceptional, extraordinary, singular. 2. sparse, infrequent. 5. choice, incomparable, inimitable.

      Antonyms
      1. common. 2. frequent. 5. inferior.
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    5. Member BmwFanBoy's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 12:39 PM #105
      After the Redbull jump I'll get on my laptop and start a well thought poll. After this thread and unicorns I'm understanding a lot of members opinions and concerns. And if someone starts a poll have a option vote for "My poll sucks"

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      10-09-2012 12:39 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by turbo_nine View Post
      Sure that's simple.

      Which of those makes a car "rare" under the allowance of limited production?
      Sorry, thought that was clear - 1,000 of the chassis, period.
      "Motorcycles - the cigarettes of transportation." Seth Meyers

    7. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 01:04 PM #107
      More rare cars:

      The Bizzarrini BZ-2001. Planned for production but only two ever made:



      Cizeta-Moroder V16T. Only 8 originals ever made by the company:



      A rare classic would be the 1936 Bugatti Type 57SC. Only 2 originals ever made:



      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    8. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 01:21 PM #108
      rare

      [SIZE=2]1 [/SIZE] /rɛər/ Show Spelled[rair] Show IPA
      adjective, rar·er, rar·est.

      1. coming or occurring far apart in time; unusual; uncommon: a rare disease; His visits are rare occasions.

      2. thinly distributed over an area; few and widely separated: Lighthouses are rare on that part of the coast.

      3. having the component parts not closely compacted together; not dense: rare gases; lightheaded from the rare mountain air.

      4. unusually great: a rare display of courage.

      5. unusually excellent; admirable; fine: She showed rare tact in inviting them.






      Origin:
      1350–1400; Middle English < Latin rārus loose, wide apart, thin, infrequent

      Related forms rare·ness, noun

      Synonyms
      1. exceptional, extraordinary, singular. 2. sparse, infrequent. 5. choice, incomparable, inimitable.


      IMO, applying that to cars leaves us with something akin to many uses in this thread, with no hard or fast number. Certainly definitions #1 and #2 apply here, and it can be used to describe original production numbers AND surviving examples. Has NO bearing on valuation or desirability, ONLY in how many there are in comparison to other, non-rare items. Since there are "rarer" and "rarest" versions, you can call somthign rare without it having to be the rarest. Obins examples are of the rarest, but not the definition of rare. Obviously unusual and uncommon are part and parcel of the defintion of rare. if wew apply that to cars, then yes, survivors of even larger production runs become rare simply by being not common. And again, it doesn't make it valuable, merely uncommon or unusual. With 200 million registered cars in teh US alone, you can be uncommon and still be a relatively large number (like say, a production run of 2000 examples in one year, will be uncommon and thus rare, but not necessarily valuable. A production run of 10 simply makes them rarer, or even more uncommon.)
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    9. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 01:42 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      More rare cars:

      A rare classic would be the 1936 Bugatti Type 57SC. Only 2 originals ever made:



      obin
      I shared a space with that car at Greenwich in 2005, I think. It was truly like being in the presence of greatness.

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      10-09-2012 01:52 PM #110
      Barry, I need to go see that Atlantic in Oxnard. I prefer it to the Pope/Lauren one in black. I think that originally there were three Atlantics and now there are two remade ones, one out of some of the crashed one. The Aerolithe is also back on the road.

    11. Member choochoo's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 01:55 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      rare

      [SIZE=2]1 [/SIZE] /rɛər/ Show Spelled[rair] Show IPA
      adjective, rar·er, rar·est.

      1. coming or occurring far apart in time; unusual; uncommon: a rare disease; His visits are rare occasions.

      2. thinly distributed over an area; few and widely separated: Lighthouses are rare on that part of the coast.

      3. having the component parts not closely compacted together; not dense: rare gases; lightheaded from the rare mountain air.

      4. unusually great: a rare display of courage.

      5. unusually excellent; admirable; fine: She showed rare tact in inviting them.






      Origin:
      1350–1400; Middle English < Latin rārus loose, wide apart, thin, infrequent

      Related forms rare·ness, noun

      Synonyms
      1. exceptional, extraordinary, singular. 2. sparse, infrequent. 5. choice, incomparable, inimitable.


      IMO, applying that to cars leaves us with something akin to many uses in this thread, with no hard or fast number. Certainly definitions #1 and #2 apply here, and it can be used to describe original production numbers AND surviving examples. Has NO bearing on valuation or desirability, ONLY in how many there are in comparison to other, non-rare items. Since there are "rarer" and "rarest" versions, you can call somthign rare without it having to be the rarest. Obins examples are of the rarest, but not the definition of rare. Obviously unusual and uncommon are part and parcel of the defintion of rare. if wew apply that to cars, then yes, survivors of even larger production runs become rare simply by being not common. And again, it doesn't make it valuable, merely uncommon or unusual. With 200 million registered cars in teh US alone, you can be uncommon and still be a relatively large number (like say, a production run of 2000 examples in one year, will be uncommon and thus rare, but not necessarily valuable. A production run of 10 simply makes them rarer, or even more uncommon.)
      /thread

    12. 10-09-2012 01:55 PM #112
      now that were in super low production numbers, it honestly makes me think more of the lines of unicorn. 1 of 2? 1 of 4? thats a unicorn, or maybe bigfoot. i think i saw it, but i cant prove it, other than how excited i got.
      Sent from Commodore 64

    13. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 01:56 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by garageless View Post
      Barry, I need to go see that Atlantic in Oxnard. I prefer it to the Pope/Lauren one in black. I think that originally there were three Atlantics and now there are two remade ones, one out of some of the crashed one. The Aerolithe is also back on the road.

      It's actually quite stirring in person. Those riveted standing ribs scream "form follows function".
      Last edited by barry2952; 10-09-2012 at 02:36 PM.
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

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    14. 10-09-2012 02:57 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      rare

      [SIZE=2]1 [/SIZE] /rɛər/ Show Spelled[rair] Show IPA
      adjective, rar·er, rar·est.

      4. unusually great: a rare display of courage.

      5. unusually excellent; admirable; fine: She showed rare tact in inviting them.



      Has NO bearing on valuation or desirability
      How great or excellent something is will effect valuation and desirability.

      synonyms for rare under definition 4:

      admirable, choice, excellent, exquisite, extreme, fine, great, incomparable, peerless, superb, superlative

      synonyms for rare under definition 5:

      invaluable, precious, priceless, rich


      value value value value.



      I wouldn't say a car has to be valuable to be rare.. but it is an acceptable definition.

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      10-09-2012 03:02 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by x1000rpms View Post
      synonyms for rare under definition 5:

      invaluable, precious, priceless, rich


      value value value value.



      I wouldn't say a car has to be valuable to be rare.. but it is an acceptable definition.
      That's the problem with the term in reference to cars though. We've been conditioned to think that rare = valuable in terms of cars, and that just isn't the case for the majority of rare cars.

      To me, rare refers strictly to numbers and not value, and they should remain mutually exclusive. If they eventually do become related, then a car should be valuable because it's rare, not rare because it's valuable. And the opposite doesn't even make sense.

    16. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:16 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I shared a space with that car at Greenwich in 2005, I think. It was truly like being in the presence of greatness.

      AWESOME!!! I would consider that to be an honor!

      Some more rare cars:

      Bourbon Nicolas Adonis:



      Very low production: only one made. The car took 6,000 hours to build by hand.

      Here's another rarity; the Costin Amigo. There were only 8 ever made:



      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    17. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:30 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      AWESOME!!! I would consider that to be an honor!

      Some more rare cars:

      Bourbon Nicolas Adonis:



      Very low production: only one made. The car took 6,000 hours to build by hand.


      obin
      Only one makes it not "production." It's a one off. There are a LOT of "one offs." Most of them as desirable as that Adonis, i.e only desirable to the person that built it. That woud make pretty much every custom car "rare." and that's not rare at all.

      I think that to me, a rare car should probably exist in numbers above one, yet still be very low numbers total. I'm still not sure what the low number might be, and whether we give the same consideration to original production numbers as to surviving examples.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    18. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:31 PM #118
      Rare.
      Ruf CTR 1 "Yellowbird"
      1 of 29 Built.

      Last edited by a2a4raddo; 10-09-2012 at 03:37 PM.

    19. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 04:00 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      Only one makes it not "production." It's a one off. There are a LOT of "one offs." Most of them as desirable as that Adonis, i.e only desirable to the person that built it. That woud make pretty much every custom car "rare." and that's not rare at all.

      I think that to me, a rare car should probably exist in numbers above one, yet still be very low numbers total. I'm still not sure what the low number might be, and whether we give the same consideration to original production numbers as to surviving examples.
      I sort of agree there. To me personally one-offs are rare if they are unique from the majority of vehicles. I mean really unique. The Adonis is a million dollar vehicle with supercar performance. I'd agree that there's a lot of cool one-off cars at all price levels but the Adonis is a bit of a special and rare car. The kinds of people who buy these rare cars have DEEEP pockets.

      On the other hand there will come the day that common cars today will become rare because people will neglect the rest of them. There will be a "rare one of three left in existance" 1995 Ford Taurus some day. It may take 40 years but that day will come.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    20. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 04:14 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      AWESOME!!! I would consider that to be an honor!
      My car was supposed to be in a '50s-'60s Luxury Convertible class, but some rightfully complained as mine is a custom car. They put it in a ring of the previous 10 years worth of "Best of Show" winners. I cringed and the rest of the cars were nearly as spectacular. I had a Bugatti to the left of me, Ferrari to the right, there I am....................



      Yes, it was an honor, indeed.
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      10-09-2012 05:03 PM #121
      Definition of rare -



      Rare 1971 Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda heads to auction

      Only 11 Plymouth Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles were ever built, making them among the rarest and most desirable of Mopar muscle cars. Among Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles, it doesn’t get any more exclusive than one of one built, like the 1971 Hemi ‘Cuda convertible seen here.

      The only 1971 Hemi ‘Cuda convertible sprayed in “Plum Crazy” (and one of two originally built for export to Canada) will cross the block at Barrett-Jackson’s upcoming Scottsdale auction, as part of its exclusive “Salon Collection” of premium automobiles.

      The car in question comes with the 426 cubic-inch Hemi V-8 engine, dual four-barrel carburetors, the 727 automatic transmission, the Super Track Pak option and a power convertible top.

      While the car is pristine today, it was just five days away from being sold for scrap when it was discovered by Hemi ‘Cuda specialist Harold Sullivan on New Year’s Eve 2001. Reported stolen some 30 years earlier, the car was found tangled in underbrush and nearly beyond saving.

      A two year restoration project, undertaken by Cummins Restoration and Ted Mazurek, followed. Once completed, the car was appraised and authenticated by Mopar expert Galen Govier, and it later went on to win top honors at the 2005 Meadowbrook Concours d’Elegance.

      It’s not clear if the car is a numbers-matching example, but given its sad history our guess is that it’s not. Still, the car in any form is highly desirable, and likely to command top dollar when it crosses the block on January 19, 2013.

    22. 10-09-2012 05:26 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
      Sorry, thought that was clear - 1,000 of the chassis, period.
      Chassis? That doesn't quite apply to cars made in the last 30+ years with their "platforms" and so on.
      call it potatography

    23. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 05:46 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by BostonB6 View Post
      Definition of rare -



      Rare 1971 Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda heads to auction

      Only 11 Plymouth Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles were ever built, making them among the rarest and most desirable of Mopar muscle cars. Among Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles, it doesn’t get any more exclusive than one of one built, like the 1971 Hemi ‘Cuda convertible seen here.
      The Hemi 'Cuda convertible would be one of the few exceptions I'd have to my "single digit production" rule of thumb concerning rare cars. I've seen ONE of them in my life and I have pics of it somewhere. I had to do a few double-takes and a close-up inspection just to make sure my eyes weren't deceiving me. It looks great in photos and absolutely stunning in person.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    24. 10-09-2012 06:08 PM #124
      [QUOTE=a2a4raddo;79281118] The E30 M3 was a homologation special...that BMW continued to build because of demand.

      Well FIA dont agree with you.

      Cars such as the Subaru Legacy, the early BMW M3, the Audi Coupe Quattro or the Mitsubishi Galant VR4 and others are not true homologation specials as their production numbers were not dictated by FIA regulations and their design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart. These cars were used in competition only because the base car was already, or was thought to be, adequate for competition purposes.

      Most of the homologation specials are recognizable by the number of air vents fitted on their bonnet, front bumper and wheel arches as well as their oversized spoilers and other aerodynamic attributes. These vents, usually blanked on the street versions, are not required for street use but are essential for competition use and have to be present on the homologation base vehicle.

      The majority of homologation special cars have not been produced in numbers exceeding those required for their FIA homologation and are, thus, relatively rare and rapidly becoming collectable. Additionally they are often very exciting to drive as, most of them, are in fact detuned competition vehicles under disguise. For a manufacturer producing special series of cars that share very few common parts with other models is an expensive adventure that almost always leads to financial losses. Since the emergence of the WRC class cars in 1997, which do not require street going counterparts and thus represent a serious financial gain for manufacturers, production of homologation specials ceased.
      http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Homologation.html
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    25. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 08:14 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by Haubbs View Post
      True, adding the M gets you a desirable engine/drivetrain to set it apart from the base but the production numbers are too high so I would be an M guy that would agree with you.

      However for NA, BMW did make only 1600 S54 M roadsters and 690 S54 M Coupes over '01 and '02. I would say those M cars qualify as rare.
      My opinion is the Z4M Coupe is bordering on rare (1815 total built for N.A.) and I feel that while it is the same chassis design as the standard it is hard to call it a trim level. Different engine, transmission, changes to exterior, interior, suspension. It is also one of the few somewhat reasonably priced built in the last 10 years performance sports cars that are close to rare. I am biased.

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