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    Thread: Define "rare"

    1. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 08:35 PM #126
      Geez, I wonder what my brand-new borrowed Prom car would be worth? 440/RT 6-pack Challenger in Plumb Crazy with a white top, interior and stripe.

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    2. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 08:40 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by turbo_nine View Post
      Chassis? That doesn't quite apply to cars made in the last 30+ years with their "platforms" and so on.
      I think you're confusing the term frame and chassis. A unibody car is a chassis. A platform is a assembly that the components bolt to, just like a frame. A chassis is a frame or unit body with the rolling components bolted to it.
      Garmin Is My Pilot.

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    3. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 09:49 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by om617952 View Post
      Well FIA dont agree with you.
      Right, except the base E30 only shares a hood and doors with the E30 M3. And the E30 M3 HAD to be built in order to race the car It is indeed a homologation special.



      Why is the E30 M3 considered a homologation model?
      The main impetus for the E30 M3’s existence was Group A racing, a production-based class that demanded that each race car share its core mechanical components with a road car, of which at least 5,000 examples had to be produced. Thus, BMW Motorsport designed the race car first, then applied the necessary changes to the road car in order to homologate the competition machine. The E30 M3 street version and E30 M3 competition version are therefore quite similar. For example, the widened fenders were needed to accommodate racing rubber on the competition cars but were not necessary for the more modest tires of the street version. However, fender width had to be identical between the road and race versions, so both share the same flared arches.



      To keep the car competitive in racing following year-to-year homologation rules changes, homologation specials were produced. Homologation rules roughly stated that the race version must reflect the street car aerodynamically and in engine displacement. These include: the Evo 1, Evo 2, and Sport Evolution some of which featured less weight, improved aerodynamics, taller front wheel arches (Sport Evolution; to further facilitate 18-inch (460 mm) wheels in DTM), brake ducting, and more power. Other limited-production models (based on evolution models but featuring special paintwork and/or unique interior schemes commemorating championship wins) include the Europa, Ravaglia, Cecotto, and Europameister.

      If you search the net hard enough, you will also find FIA Documents for the E30 M3 in Group A, B, & N. 87-92. However you will have to download them...160+ pages worth.

    4. 10-09-2012 10:39 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I think you're confusing the term frame and chassis. A unibody car is a chassis. A platform is a assembly that the components bolt to, just like a frame. A chassis is a frame or unit body with the rolling components bolted to it.
      Uh yeah. Does this get us any closer to a definition of Rare?



      (and did that prom convertible survive to this day?)
      call it potatography

    5. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 10:57 PM #130
      I don't know as I just borrowed it. Here's the story of the kid with the dorkiest daily driving to Prom in the baddest of the bad.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...highlight=prom
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    6. Member oviewankenobi's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 10:59 PM #131
      Anything and everything in the vortex wheel classifieds.

    7. Member davedave's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:37 AM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      I shared a space with that car at Greenwich in 2005, I think. It was truly like being in the presence of greatness.
      For the Bugatti owner, I'm sure you meant.

    8. 10-10-2012 12:07 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by a2a4raddo View Post
      Right, except the base E30 only shares a hood and doors with the E30 M3. And the E30 M3 HAD to be built in order to race the car It is indeed a homologation special.
      Only M3 that comes close to homologation special is the e36 GTR.
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    9. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 12:29 PM #134
      Another rare car is the Ford GT70:





      Only three were made and then the entire project was cancelled. Too bad because that is a really cool looking little car.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    10. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 12:49 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by om617952 View Post
      Only M3 that comes close to homologation special is the e36 GTR.
      Is that why every source lists the e30 M3 as one and fia homologation documents exist for the e30 in group a, b, and n over 6 years? I also find it odd that you don't consider this road going v8 powered e46 M3 of which only 10 exist a homologation special either.

      In other words, you don't know what you are talking about.

      Last edited by a2a4raddo; 10-10-2012 at 12:58 PM.

    11. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 12:55 PM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by om617952 View Post
      Only M3 that comes close to homologation special is the e36 GTR.
      Wrong.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    12. 10-10-2012 01:12 PM #137
      [QUOTE=a2a4raddo;79297182]Is that why every source lists the e30 M3 as one and fia homologation documents exist for the e30 in group a, b, and n over 6 years? I also find it odd that you don't consider this road going v8 powered e46 M3 of which only 10 exist a homologation special either.

      In other words, you don't know what you are talking about.[QUOTE]


      The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,that is why it is not a real homologation special. Dont be mad at me,send a mail to rallycars.com and tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

      My point was you had to wait until the e36 GTR to use the term. The e30 not so much.
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    13. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 01:18 PM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by om617952 View Post

      The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,that is why it is not a real homologation special. Dont be mad at me,send a mail to rallycars.com and tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

      My point was you had to wait until the e36 GTR to use the term. The e30 not so much.
      The E30 M3 was a homologation special, not for rallying, but for FIA road racing. It homologated the bodywork and flares, as well as the particular engine. BMW needed to make a minimum number of them in order to homologate the type for DTM racing. Mercedes did the same with the 190e 2.3-16, and did Evolution versions as homologations for DTM to allow the flares and wing that they used, as well.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    14. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 01:25 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by om617952 View Post
      The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,that is why it is not a real homologation special. Dont be mad at me,send a mail to rallycars.com and tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

      My point was you had to wait until the e36 GTR to use the term. The e30 not so much.
      Re read this

      Quote Originally Posted by a2a4raddo View Post
      Right, except the base E30 only shares a hood and doors with the E30 M3. And the E30 M3 HAD to be built in order to race the car It is indeed a homologation special.



      Why is the E30 M3 considered a homologation model?
      The main impetus for the E30 M3’s existence was Group A racing, a production-based class that demanded that each race car share its core mechanical components with a road car, of which at least 5,000 examples had to be produced. Thus, BMW Motorsport designed the race car first, then applied the necessary changes to the road car in order to homologate the competition machine. The E30 M3 street version and E30 M3 competition version are therefore quite similar. For example, the widened fenders were needed to accommodate racing rubber on the competition cars but were not necessary for the more modest tires of the street version. However, fender width had to be identical between the road and race versions, so both share the same flared arches.



      To keep the car competitive in racing following year-to-year homologation rules changes, homologation specials were produced. Homologation rules roughly stated that the race version must reflect the street car aerodynamically and in engine displacement. These include: the Evo 1, Evo 2, and Sport Evolution some of which featured less weight, improved aerodynamics, taller front wheel arches (Sport Evolution; to further facilitate 18-inch (460 mm) wheels in DTM), brake ducting, and more power. Other limited-production models (based on evolution models but featuring special paintwork and/or unique interior schemes commemorating championship wins) include the Europa, Ravaglia, Cecotto, and Europameister.

      If you search the net hard enough, you will also find FIA Documents for the E30 M3 in Group A, B, & N. 87-92. However you will have to download them...160+ pages worth.
      And then this. You are Wrong and/or confused. Plain and simple.

      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      The E30 M3 was a homologation special, not for rallying, but for FIA road racing. It homologated the bodywork and flares, as well as the particular engine. BMW needed to make a minimum number of them in order to homologate the type for DTM racing. Mercedes did the same with the 190e 2.3-16, and did Evolution versions as homologations for DTM to allow the flares and wing that they used, as well.

    15. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 01:33 PM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by om617952 View Post


      The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    16. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 02:38 PM #141
      How about we confine the discussion to street cars?
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    17. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 02:46 PM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by barry2952 View Post
      How about we confine the discussion to street cars?
      We were discussing the M3, which is indeed a street car. And in typical TCL fashion, the discussion turned away from rarity to what it was categorized as (homologation special or not) due to someone attempting to correct someone who said it was a limited run homologation special (which it is).

      The problem is we haven't decided yet what the number is for rarity status, nor whether it counts for original production run vs surviving examples out of a larger production run.

      I think the number for rarity can be a little higher than Obin postulates, and I believe that it should count if a car is rare NOW vs when it was new (i.e. only a few survivors left). And based on the dictionary definitions, rare in the automotive world is not discussing value. Therefore a car can be rare and still valueless. I think value should be based on desirability and a car could be rare because no one desired it.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    18. Member barry2952's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:00 PM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      I think value should be based on desirability and a car could be rare because no one desired it.
      There were surely other forces at work for the much older cars. As stated in my OP, my '33 likely escaped the crusher, probably not because it was considered outstanding in a sea of inexpensive cars, but the fact that it was a very low mileage vehicle. The first owner sold it 33 years old with 33,000 miles on it. The second owner, the family I bought it from, only put 17,000 miles on it in the next 44 years. I think it's pretty rare that a car could be almost 80 years old and only have had 3 owners.

      Here's a picture of it taken in 1966. What's the vehicle in the reflection on the car?

      I posted it big so you can see the reflection.

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    19. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:14 PM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      I think the number for rarity can be a little higher than Obin postulates, and I believe that it should count if a car is rare NOW vs when it was new (i.e. only a few survivors left). And based on the dictionary definitions, rare in the automotive world is not discussing value. Therefore a car can be rare and still valueless. I think value should be based on desirability and a car could be rare because no one desired it.
      My personal definition is a bit on the stringent side and I like to say "single digits" with a few exceptions for those cars that there are 11 or 12 of in history. On the other hand I simply can't sign off on the idea that a car which there exists 800 or 1400 identical copies can be considered "rare" be even a stretch of the imagination. I picture a phone call between a multi-millionaire collector and a car broker.

      millionaire: "Hey buddy I have a few hundred thousand dollars I don't know what to do with. Can you find me a 'rare' Honda Civic Si?"
      broker: "No problem. I can find about 700 in my quick list. I'll have to get back to you once I sort through the trashed ones and find a car worth buying."

      I just wouldn't be able to take that conversation seriously. On the other hand I could picture this being a legitimate conversation:

      millionaire: "Hey I have some money to burn. Can you find me a Bristol Bolide?
      broker: "Wow you always pick the strange ones. I'll have to dig for you. They are pretty rare these days. I'll call you back in a week."

      Rare cars to me don't have to be million dollar exotics. But if there can be 680 identical ones (other than color) sitting side by side in a parking lot then there's no way I'd call that machine "rare" at all. There may not be enough affordable ones for every person who wants one, but doesn't that apply to pretty much every desireable car? Just because I can't find a Ford Sierra in Houston it doesn't mean it's a rare car. It just means I can't find one in Houston. Maybe it's rare here, but it's not a rare car.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

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      10-10-2012 03:45 PM #145
      supply and demand.

      low production numbers does not necessarily mean rare. if 10 examples exist and there are only 9 interested parties, is it rare?

      to me rare is a mass produced car that got the **** kicked out of over its lifetime. some were scrapped and some were saved. its a car that had a chance to effect many lives, not just a car to be tucked in the corner of the CEO's garage and never see daylight.

      this is why i kind of agree with certain options/colors making a car rare or having some history behind it.

      my old man has 65 stingray, rare, not so much. but from what i've understood, it was part of small number built at a different factory while GM employees at the corvette factory were on strike, that may make it rare to a collector, but no one else would bat an eye.

      this thread could last a lifetime and still not reach a conclusion.

    21. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:26 PM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by crookedarm View Post
      supply and demand.

      low production numbers does not necessarily mean rare. if 10 examples exist and there are only 9 interested parties, is it rare?
      Name me a single low-production car where only 10 examples were produced which you can't find a buyer for one. Limited edition cars made by reputable manufacturers always end up either getting sold out ahead of time, or the collectors snatch up the examples the second they hit the open market. The only reason a low-production collector car may sit on the market for a while would be if the owner wants a truly unreasonable amount for it.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    22. Member crookedarm's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:39 PM #147
      it was being used to demonstrate rarity of an "example," not necessarily automobiles. none the less, does my statement stand true?

      i do agree that limited runs on automobiles tend to sell out.

    23. 10-10-2012 06:41 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      The E30 M3 was a homologation special, not for rallying, but for FIA road racing. It homologated the bodywork and flares, as well as the particular engine. BMW needed to make a minimum number of them in order to homologate the type for DTM racing. Mercedes did the same with the 190e 2.3-16, and did Evolution versions as homologations for DTM to allow the flares and wing that they used, as well.
      Ah,i was quite sure that this was for the Evolution models only. I`ll pass it over to FIA that they got it all wrong
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      10-10-2012 08:27 PM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      millionaire: "Hey buddy I have a few hundred thousand dollars I don't know what to do with. Can you find me a 'rare' Honda Civic Si?"
      broker: "No problem. I can find about 700 in my quick list. I'll have to get back to you once I sort through the trashed ones and find a car worth buying."

      I just wouldn't be able to take that conversation seriously. On the other hand I could picture this being a legitimate conversation:

      millionaire: "Hey I have some money to burn. Can you find me a Bristol Bolide?
      broker: "Wow you always pick the strange ones. I'll have to dig for you. They are pretty rare these days. I'll call you back in a week

      obin
      I can't agree with that logic, or more to the point I find it flawed. Anyone can do a local craigslist search or autotrader search and find a civic si both within a couple minutes as well as relatively close to home.


      You don't consider a 968 rare, but Porsche only sold approx 4,500 968's in North America over 4 model years. I challenge you to find a low mileage m030 equipped coupe locally, or even nationally. It will take you months, maybe years to find the right car. They don't pop up for sale very often, and when they do....they are either repaired wrecks, high mileage, track rats, or sold quickly. Outside of Porsche meets, I have only seen 2 968's on the road in the last 4 years. Both looked tired. It's simply far from common, which in itself makes it a rare car and a rare sight. Finding two identical 968's (or most 80-90's porsche's is beyond difficult). Most everyone is equipped with a different combo of options. There are literally close to 100 different interior variations with 968's alone.....meaning seat colors, carpet colors, partial leather, full leather, cloth inserts, full clutch, dash colors, etc etc etc.

      ford created 500 Sierra Cosworth RS500's. it's not about how many you can find in Houston. It's about how many you can find on the entire continent.....maybe a handfull. How many will you find in Europe? How many have been wrecked? I have never seen one in the flesh.....and I've been to Europe countless times. It's not a common car, its a rare sight. Good luck finding a clean low mileage rs500 for sale. And good luck seeing more then 1 at the same place at the same time unless its an organized rs500 meet.

      Cars like the 968 Turbo RS are rare 1 of 4 cars. But they are a trim level. So for you to consider that car rare.....but not something like the only 968 painted in Porsche 1970's shade of summer yellow (paint to sample 1995 m030 coupe) doesn't make sense to me.

      Rare is relative. But any car I don't see everyday, or even every year would be a rare sight when I do see it, making it a rare car. If a car is abundant in Europe, that doesn't mean it isn't rare in the states.

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      10-10-2012 08:38 PM #150
      This is my friend Jeff's car. It is 1 of 1 Mint Green 968 Cabs sold in North America. It was a Porsche press car, and is laden with tons of options including a full leather interior, dash, etc. it is 1 of 2,248 cabs sold in North America and 1 of 4,665 968's total sold in North America. 2 other 968's were painted mint green by Porsche. Both coupes. It is also an early production cab(9th) car built which means it has several minor variations from most '92 models including a recessed hood badge. You won't ever see another 968 like it, much the same way you won't ever see another 968 like a Turbo RS you may run into at a concours show.


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