Define "rare"

[epbrown]

Sure that's simple.

Which of those makes a car "rare" under the allowance of limited production?

Sorry, thought that was clear - 1,000 of the chassis, period.

[Obin Robinson]

More rare cars:

The Bizzarrini BZ-2001. Planned for production but only two ever made:



Cizeta-Moroder V16T. Only 8 originals ever made by the company:



A rare classic would be the 1936 Bugatti Type 57SC. Only 2 originals ever made:



obin

[Chris_V]

rare

^{[SIZE=2]1 [/SIZE]}   /rɛər/ Show Spelled[rair] Show IPA
adjective, rar·er, rar·est.

1. coming or occurring far apart in time; unusual; uncommon: a rare disease; His visits are rare occasions.

2. thinly distributed over an area; few and widely separated: Lighthouses are rare on that part of the coast.

3. having the component parts not closely compacted together; not dense: rare gases; lightheaded from the rare mountain air.

4. unusually great: a rare display of courage.

5. unusually excellent; admirable; fine: She showed rare tact in inviting them.

---

Origin:
1350–1400; Middle English < Latin rārus loose, wide apart, thin, infrequent

Related forms rare·ness, noun

Synonyms
1. exceptional, extraordinary, singular. 2. sparse, infrequent. 5. choice, incomparable, inimitable.


IMO, applying that to cars leaves us with something akin to many uses in this thread, with no hard or fast number. Certainly definitions #1 and #2 apply here, and it can be used to describe original production numbers AND surviving examples. Has NO bearing on valuation or desirability, ONLY in how many there are in comparison to other, non-rare items. Since there are "rarer" and "rarest" versions, you can call somthign rare without it having to be the rarest. Obins examples are of the rarest, but not the definition of rare. Obviously unusual and uncommon are part and parcel of the defintion of rare. if wew apply that to cars, then yes, survivors of even larger production runs become rare simply by being not common. And again, it doesn't make it valuable, merely uncommon or unusual. With 200 million registered cars in teh US alone, you can be uncommon and still be a relatively large number (like say, a production run of 2000 examples in one year, will be uncommon and thus rare, but not necessarily valuable. A production run of 10 simply makes them rarer, or even more uncommon.)

[barry2952]

More rare cars:

A rare classic would be the 1936 Bugatti Type 57SC. Only 2 originals ever made:



obin

I shared a space with that car at Greenwich in 2005, I think. It was truly like being in the presence of greatness.

[garageless]

Barry, I need to go see that Atlantic in Oxnard. I prefer it to the Pope/Lauren one in black. I think that originally there were three Atlantics and now there are two remade ones, one out of some of the crashed one. The Aerolithe is also back on the road.

[choochoo]

rare

^{[SIZE=2]1 [/SIZE]}   /rɛər/ Show Spelled[rair] Show IPA
adjective, rar·er, rar·est.

1. coming or occurring far apart in time; unusual; uncommon: a rare disease; His visits are rare occasions.

2. thinly distributed over an area; few and widely separated: Lighthouses are rare on that part of the coast.

3. having the component parts not closely compacted together; not dense: rare gases; lightheaded from the rare mountain air.

4. unusually great: a rare display of courage.

5. unusually excellent; admirable; fine: She showed rare tact in inviting them.

---

Origin:
1350–1400; Middle English < Latin rārus loose, wide apart, thin, infrequent

Related forms rare·ness, noun

Synonyms
1. exceptional, extraordinary, singular. 2. sparse, infrequent. 5. choice, incomparable, inimitable.


IMO, applying that to cars leaves us with something akin to many uses in this thread, with no hard or fast number. Certainly definitions #1 and #2 apply here, and it can be used to describe original production numbers AND surviving examples. Has NO bearing on valuation or desirability, ONLY in how many there are in comparison to other, non-rare items. Since there are "rarer" and "rarest" versions, you can call somthign rare without it having to be the rarest. Obins examples are of the rarest, but not the definition of rare. Obviously unusual and uncommon are part and parcel of the defintion of rare. if wew apply that to cars, then yes, survivors of even larger production runs become rare simply by being not common. And again, it doesn't make it valuable, merely uncommon or unusual. With 200 million registered cars in teh US alone, you can be uncommon and still be a relatively large number (like say, a production run of 2000 examples in one year, will be uncommon and thus rare, but not necessarily valuable. A production run of 10 simply makes them rarer, or even more uncommon.)

/thread

[Noah Fecks]

now that were in super low production numbers, it honestly makes me think more of the lines of unicorn. 1 of 2? 1 of 4? thats a unicorn, or maybe bigfoot. i think i saw it, but i cant prove it, other than how excited i got.

[barry2952]

Barry, I need to go see that Atlantic in Oxnard. I prefer it to the Pope/Lauren one in black. I think that originally there were three Atlantics and now there are two remade ones, one out of some of the crashed one. The Aerolithe is also back on the road.

It's actually quite stirring in person. Those riveted standing ribs scream "form follows function".

[x1000rpms]

rare

^{[SIZE=2]1 [/SIZE]}   /rɛər/ Show Spelled[rair] Show IPA
adjective, rar·er, rar·est.

4. unusually great: a rare display of courage.

5. unusually excellent; admirable; fine: She showed rare tact in inviting them.



Has NO bearing on valuation or desirability

How great or excellent something is will effect valuation and desirability.

synonyms for rare under definition 4:

admirable, choice, excellent, exquisite, extreme, fine, great, incomparable, peerless, superb, superlative

synonyms for rare under definition 5:

invaluable, precious, priceless, rich


value value value value.



I wouldn't say a car has to be valuable to be rare.. but it is an acceptable definition.

[C4 A6]

synonyms for rare under definition 5:

invaluable, precious, priceless, rich


value value value value.



I wouldn't say a car has to be valuable to be rare.. but it is an acceptable definition.

That's the problem with the term in reference to cars though. We've been conditioned to think that rare = valuable in terms of cars, and that just isn't the case for the majority of rare cars.

To me, rare refers strictly to numbers and not value, and they should remain mutually exclusive. If they eventually do become related, then a car should be valuable because it's rare, not rare because it's valuable. And the opposite doesn't even make sense.

[Obin Robinson]

I shared a space with that car at Greenwich in 2005, I think. It was truly like being in the presence of greatness.

AWESOME!!! I would consider that to be an honor!

Some more rare cars:

Bourbon Nicolas Adonis:



Very low production: only one made. The car took 6,000 hours to build by hand.

Here's another rarity; the Costin Amigo. There were only 8 ever made:



obin

[Chris_V]

AWESOME!!! I would consider that to be an honor!

Some more rare cars:

Bourbon Nicolas Adonis:



Very low production: only one made. The car took 6,000 hours to build by hand.


obin

Only one makes it not "production." It's a one off. There are a LOT of "one offs." Most of them as desirable as that Adonis, i.e only desirable to the person that built it. That woud make pretty much every custom car "rare." and that's not rare at all.

I think that to me, a rare car should probably exist in numbers above one, yet still be very low numbers total. I'm still not sure what the low number might be, and whether we give the same consideration to original production numbers as to surviving examples.

[a2a4raddo]

Rare.
Ruf CTR 1 "Yellowbird"
1 of 29 Built.

[Obin Robinson]

Only one makes it not "production." It's a one off. There are a LOT of "one offs." Most of them as desirable as that Adonis, i.e only desirable to the person that built it. That woud make pretty much every custom car "rare." and that's not rare at all.

I think that to me, a rare car should probably exist in numbers above one, yet still be very low numbers total. I'm still not sure what the low number might be, and whether we give the same consideration to original production numbers as to surviving examples.

I sort of agree there. To me personally one-offs are rare if they are unique from the majority of vehicles. I mean really unique. The Adonis is a million dollar vehicle with supercar performance. I'd agree that there's a lot of cool one-off cars at all price levels but the Adonis is a bit of a special and rare car. The kinds of people who buy these rare cars have DEEEP pockets.

On the other hand there will come the day that common cars today will become rare because people will neglect the rest of them. There will be a "rare one of three left in existance" 1995 Ford Taurus some day. It may take 40 years but that day will come.

obin

[barry2952]

AWESOME!!! I would consider that to be an honor!

My car was supposed to be in a '50s-'60s Luxury Convertible class, but some rightfully complained as mine is a custom car. They put it in a ring of the previous 10 years worth of "Best of Show" winners. I cringed and the rest of the cars were nearly as spectacular. I had a Bugatti to the left of me, Ferrari to the right, there I am....................



Yes, it was an honor, indeed.

[BostonB6]

Definition of rare -



Rare 1971 Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda heads to auction

Only 11 Plymouth Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles were ever built, making them among the rarest and most desirable of Mopar muscle cars. Among Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles, it doesn’t get any more exclusive than one of one built, like the 1971 Hemi ‘Cuda convertible seen here.

The only 1971 Hemi ‘Cuda convertible sprayed in “Plum Crazy” (and one of two originally built for export to Canada) will cross the block at Barrett-Jackson’s upcoming Scottsdale auction, as part of its exclusive “Salon Collection” of premium automobiles.

The car in question comes with the 426 cubic-inch Hemi V-8 engine, dual four-barrel carburetors, the 727 automatic transmission, the Super Track Pak option and a power convertible top.

While the car is pristine today, it was just five days away from being sold for scrap when it was discovered by Hemi ‘Cuda specialist Harold Sullivan on New Year’s Eve 2001. Reported stolen some 30 years earlier, the car was found tangled in underbrush and nearly beyond saving.

A two year restoration project, undertaken by Cummins Restoration and Ted Mazurek, followed. Once completed, the car was appraised and authenticated by Mopar expert Galen Govier, and it later went on to win top honors at the 2005 Meadowbrook Concours d’Elegance.

It’s not clear if the car is a numbers-matching example, but given its sad history our guess is that it’s not. Still, the car in any form is highly desirable, and likely to command top dollar when it crosses the block on January 19, 2013.

[turbo_nine]

Sorry, thought that was clear - 1,000 of the chassis, period.

Chassis? That doesn't quite apply to cars made in the last 30+ years with their "platforms" and so on.

[Obin Robinson]

Definition of rare -



Rare 1971 Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda heads to auction

Only 11 Plymouth Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles were ever built, making them among the rarest and most desirable of Mopar muscle cars. Among Hemi ‘Cuda convertibles, it doesn’t get any more exclusive than one of one built, like the 1971 Hemi ‘Cuda convertible seen here.

The Hemi 'Cuda convertible would be one of the few exceptions I'd have to my "single digit production" rule of thumb concerning rare cars. I've seen ONE of them in my life and I have pics of it somewhere. I had to do a few double-takes and a close-up inspection just to make sure my eyes weren't deceiving me. It looks great in photos and absolutely stunning in person.

obin

[om617952]

[QUOTE=a2a4raddo;79281118] The E30 M3 was a homologation special...that BMW continued to build because of demand.

Well FIA dont agree with you.

Cars such as the Subaru Legacy, the early BMW M3, the Audi Coupe Quattro or the Mitsubishi Galant VR4 and others are not true homologation specials as their production numbers were not dictated by FIA regulations and their design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart. These cars were used in competition only because the base car was already, or was thought to be, adequate for competition purposes.

Most of the homologation specials are recognizable by the number of air vents fitted on their bonnet, front bumper and wheel arches as well as their oversized spoilers and other aerodynamic attributes. These vents, usually blanked on the street versions, are not required for street use but are essential for competition use and have to be present on the homologation base vehicle.

The majority of homologation special cars have not been produced in numbers exceeding those required for their FIA homologation and are, thus, relatively rare and rapidly becoming collectable. Additionally they are often very exciting to drive as, most of them, are in fact detuned competition vehicles under disguise. For a manufacturer producing special series of cars that share very few common parts with other models is an expensive adventure that almost always leads to financial losses. Since the emergence of the WRC class cars in 1997, which do not require street going counterparts and thus represent a serious financial gain for manufacturers, production of homologation specials ceased.

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Homologation.html

[dmorrow]

True, adding the M gets you a desirable engine/drivetrain to set it apart from the base but the production numbers are too high so I would be an M guy that would agree with you.

However for NA, BMW did make only 1600 S54 M roadsters and 690 S54 M Coupes over '01 and '02. I would say those M cars qualify as rare.

My opinion is the Z4M Coupe is bordering on rare (1815 total built for N.A.) and I feel that while it is the same chassis design as the standard it is hard to call it a trim level. Different engine, transmission, changes to exterior, interior, suspension. It is also one of the few somewhat reasonably priced built in the last 10 years performance sports cars that are close to rare. I am biased.

[barry2952]

Geez, I wonder what my brand-new borrowed Prom car would be worth? 440/RT 6-pack Challenger in Plumb Crazy with a white top, interior and stripe.

[barry2952]

Chassis? That doesn't quite apply to cars made in the last 30+ years with their "platforms" and so on.

I think you're confusing the term frame and chassis. A unibody car is a chassis. A platform is a assembly that the components bolt to, just like a frame. A chassis is a frame or unit body with the rolling components bolted to it.

[a2a4raddo]

Well FIA dont agree with you.

Right, except the base E30 only shares a hood and doors with the E30 M3. And the E30 M3 HAD to be built in order to race the car It is indeed a homologation special.



Why is the E30 M3 considered a homologation model?
The main impetus for the E30 M3’s existence was Group A racing, a production-based class that demanded that each race car share its core mechanical components with a road car, of which at least 5,000 examples had to be produced. Thus, BMW Motorsport designed the race car first, then applied the necessary changes to the road car in order to homologate the competition machine. The E30 M3 street version and E30 M3 competition version are therefore quite similar. For example, the widened fenders were needed to accommodate racing rubber on the competition cars but were not necessary for the more modest tires of the street version. However, fender width had to be identical between the road and race versions, so both share the same flared arches.


To keep the car competitive in racing following year-to-year homologation rules changes, homologation specials were produced. Homologation rules roughly stated that the race version must reflect the street car aerodynamically and in engine displacement. These include: the Evo 1, Evo 2, and Sport Evolution some of which featured less weight, improved aerodynamics, taller front wheel arches (Sport Evolution; to further facilitate 18-inch (460 mm) wheels in DTM), brake ducting, and more power. Other limited-production models (based on evolution models but featuring special paintwork and/or unique interior schemes commemorating championship wins) include the Europa, Ravaglia, Cecotto, and Europameister.

If you search the net hard enough, you will also find FIA Documents for the E30 M3 in Group A, B, & N. 87-92. However you will have to download them...160+ pages worth.

[turbo_nine]

I think you're confusing the term frame and chassis. A unibody car is a chassis. A platform is a assembly that the components bolt to, just like a frame. A chassis is a frame or unit body with the rolling components bolted to it.

Uh yeah. Does this get us any closer to a definition of Rare?



(and did that prom convertible survive to this day?)

[barry2952]

I don't know as I just borrowed it. Here's the story of the kid with the dorkiest daily driving to Prom in the baddest of the bad.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...highlight=prom

[oviewankenobi]

Anything and everything in the vortex wheel classifieds.

[davedave]

I shared a space with that car at Greenwich in 2005, I think. It was truly like being in the presence of greatness.

For the Bugatti owner, I'm sure you meant.

[om617952]

Right, except the base E30 only shares a hood and doors with the E30 M3. And the E30 M3 HAD to be built in order to race the car It is indeed a homologation special.

Only M3 that comes close to homologation special is the e36 GTR.

[Obin Robinson]

Another rare car is the Ford GT70:





Only three were made and then the entire project was cancelled. Too bad because that is a really cool looking little car.

obin

[a2a4raddo]

Only M3 that comes close to homologation special is the e36 GTR.

Is that why every source lists the e30 M3 as one and fia homologation documents exist for the e30 in group a, b, and n over 6 years? I also find it odd that you don't consider this road going v8 powered e46 M3 of which only 10 exist a homologation special either.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about.

[Chris_V]

Only M3 that comes close to homologation special is the e36 GTR.

Wrong.

[om617952]

[QUOTE=a2a4raddo;79297182]Is that why every source lists the e30 M3 as one and fia homologation documents exist for the e30 in group a, b, and n over 6 years? I also find it odd that you don't consider this road going v8 powered e46 M3 of which only 10 exist a homologation special either.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about.[QUOTE]


The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,that is why it is not a real homologation special. Dont be mad at me,send a mail to rallycars.com and tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

My point was you had to wait until the e36 GTR to use the term. The e30 not so much.

[Chris_V]

The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,that is why it is not a real homologation special. Dont be mad at me,send a mail to rallycars.com and tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

My point was you had to wait until the e36 GTR to use the term. The e30 not so much.

The E30 M3 was a homologation special, not for rallying, but for FIA road racing. It homologated the bodywork and flares, as well as the particular engine. BMW needed to make a minimum number of them in order to homologate the type for DTM racing. Mercedes did the same with the 190e 2.3-16, and did Evolution versions as homologations for DTM to allow the flares and wing that they used, as well.

[a2a4raddo]

The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,that is why it is not a real homologation special. Dont be mad at me,send a mail to rallycars.com and tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about.

My point was you had to wait until the e36 GTR to use the term. The e30 not so much.

Re read this

Right, except the base E30 only shares a hood and doors with the E30 M3. And the E30 M3 HAD to be built in order to race the car It is indeed a homologation special.



Why is the E30 M3 considered a homologation model?
The main impetus for the E30 M3’s existence was Group A racing, a production-based class that demanded that each race car share its core mechanical components with a road car, of which at least 5,000 examples had to be produced. Thus, BMW Motorsport designed the race car first, then applied the necessary changes to the road car in order to homologate the competition machine. The E30 M3 street version and E30 M3 competition version are therefore quite similar. For example, the widened fenders were needed to accommodate racing rubber on the competition cars but were not necessary for the more modest tires of the street version. However, fender width had to be identical between the road and race versions, so both share the same flared arches.


To keep the car competitive in racing following year-to-year homologation rules changes, homologation specials were produced. Homologation rules roughly stated that the race version must reflect the street car aerodynamically and in engine displacement. These include: the Evo 1, Evo 2, and Sport Evolution some of which featured less weight, improved aerodynamics, taller front wheel arches (Sport Evolution; to further facilitate 18-inch (460 mm) wheels in DTM), brake ducting, and more power. Other limited-production models (based on evolution models but featuring special paintwork and/or unique interior schemes commemorating championship wins) include the Europa, Ravaglia, Cecotto, and Europameister.

If you search the net hard enough, you will also find FIA Documents for the E30 M3 in Group A, B, & N. 87-92. However you will have to download them...160+ pages worth.

And then this. You are Wrong and/or confused. Plain and simple.

The E30 M3 was a homologation special, not for rallying, but for FIA road racing. It homologated the bodywork and flares, as well as the particular engine. BMW needed to make a minimum number of them in order to homologate the type for DTM racing. Mercedes did the same with the 190e 2.3-16, and did Evolution versions as homologations for DTM to allow the flares and wing that they used, as well.

[Chris_V]

The M3 design did not directly derive from a competition counterpart,