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    Thread: Horrific Subaru Impreza accident 4 teens killed

    1. Member McBanagon's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:30 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Old Windy View Post
      Whole Backstory on this one?
      After three years of FWD hoonage, I bought my first RWD car.

      Just like many FRS and BRZ kids suffering the same fate today, the oversteer bit me in the ass. I had the car for 12 hours. Got a ticket for 20+ over on the way to the accident, too.

      If you lift while the car is in the air, it will oversteer when the rear end comes down.. Who knew?

    2. Member geofftii2002's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:38 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by dieselraver View Post
      i fail to see the correlation between the parents suing the state and not teaching their child responsibility, it just seemed like crass statement to make with no basis of proof or justification to even say something like that.
      My point is that parents themselves have no sense of responsibility, and thereby do not teach it to their children.

      Remarking that they'd sue the state for a dangerous corner is my sarcastic way of assuming (and it's okay to assume when being sarcastic) they'll not accept the responsibility of making such a dumb move of buying their kid a 300hp car when he had no idea what he was doing.

      It was a crass remark, not literal for god's sake, used to illustrate my point. Geeze. If you fail to see any correlation maybe it's because you don't want to. Let's carry on then.
      Classicmotoringllc.com - my new brokerage and consulting business based out of a lavishly converted first floor bedroom in Allentown, PA. I am always looking for quality enthusiast cars to consign, research projects or consultation opportunities. Keep an eye on my page as you can see my blabberings about cars and other such junk in the blog section!

    3. Member NYCTT225's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 08:05 PM #108
      I heard on CBS News 880 today that further tests indicated the driver was high. And the plot thickens ...

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      10-09-2012 08:07 PM #109
      For many people, AWD provides a huge false sense of security. There are several people that I know who go on and on about their AWD car saying how safe it is and how good it handles. blah blah..


      Not saying this was the cause, but many people get way too confident about their AWD cars. It is not a safety feature, but many people think it is and the car handles better with it. I admit, when I drive my wifes AWD SUV in the snow I get a little confident too, it's natural in a sense to think "this car can handle everything because its AWD" but many people don't realize they are just dead wrong.


      And I also agree I am glad I had a slow car at 17 yrs old that provided no false sense of security. I had a 80 HP 85 Accord and I had no delusions of grandeur about it's abilities. If I had a 300 HP AWD car at that age, I might have fallen into the same trap too thinking the car will save my ass and can handle anything I throw at it.

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      10-09-2012 08:08 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by geofftii2002 View Post
      My point is that parents themselves have no sense of responsibility, and thereby do not teach it to their children.

      Remarking that they'd sue the state for a dangerous corner is my sarcastic way of assuming (and it's okay to assume when being sarcastic) they'll not accept the responsibility of making such a dumb move of buying their kid a 300hp car when he had no idea what he was doing.

      It was a crass remark, not literal for god's sake, used to illustrate my point. Geeze. If you fail to see any correlation maybe it's because you don't want to. Let's carry on then.
      Majority of parents today in their late 40s+with teenage kids have no clue what a WRX or STI is. When the teenager drags their parents to the showrooms. They see a 4 door hatch or sedan that looks like your typical import compact with a little flare like a hood scoop and wing. Then the teenager sells to the parents that is has "SUPER SAFE" AWD. They have no clue what the HP numbers mean since many cars like the Camry and Altima have over 200HP. It can't hurt to have 250HP+ amirite?

      So the parents agreed that based on Subaru's safety awards, AWD safety, and resale values it's safe for the 17 year old to get a WRX for their 1st ride.

      I have a strong suspicion the driver got over-confident in the rainy night trying to show off the AWD's wet weather prowess and ended up hitting into the tree.
      Last edited by Vision33r; 10-09-2012 at 08:12 PM.

    6. Member BMP_3918's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 08:57 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by NYCTT225 View Post
      I heard on CBS News 880 today that further tests indicated the driver was high. And the plot thickens ...
      That means everyone else was high. No way in hell the driver was the only one that got high and everyone else was sober
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    7. 10-09-2012 09:01 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by NYCTT225 View Post
      I heard on CBS News 880 today that further tests indicated the driver was high. And the plot thickens ...
      Impossible. I remember many threads on TCL where people said that smoking pot actually makes you a better driver. They seemed pretty sure so it must be true.

    8. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 09:15 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by WhistlerYOW View Post
      Impossible. I remember many threads on TCL where people said that smoking pot actually makes you a better driver. They seemed pretty sure so it must be true.
      Because sober people never crash cars.

      Studies (Robbe and O'Hanlon (1993); Lamers and Ramaekers (1999); Hindrik, Robbe, and O'Hanlon (1999) -- Note that many of these people teach the Borkstien Course, which is who trains law enforcement on this stuff) have shown that there certainly is a safe level of marijuana in the system, just as there is a safe level of alcohol (and even meth). There's even some evidence to show that small levels can improve driving.

      Of course, high levels will impair driving signifcantly, but generally not in the risk taking we see here. It doesn't mean that you won't take risks while high, but pot will not cause risk taking (unlike alcohol). However, yes, if you risk take, THC will reduce you ability to deal with it.

      Further, the test is almost certainly a dip test, rather than a proper GC/MS test. This will detect MJ smoked days ago (and also has a shocking false rate -- http://www.redwoodtoxicology.com/doc..._reactions.pdf).

      This is not to defend the driver or driving while high, but I'd rather avoid the trap of saying "well this was cause by marijuana" and wahsing out hands of the larger problem. Even if the driver was high, it isn't the sole cause. Driving like a jackass did.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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      10-09-2012 09:30 PM #114
      My first car bought with my own money was a mk3 Gti vr6. I bought it fully modded. Camed full suspension work etc. It was a very fast car compared to what my friends were driving(civic, Sentra, corolla, subaru) I took it very easy for the first few months I had the car. Only when I got really comfortable did I start doing stupid shenanigans in it. I never wrecked it although I had some pretty close calls when the front sway bar snapped mid corner on a really tight exit ramp. I'm
      Not much older now (21) but I've called down a lot driving. I wouldn't do half the things I did when I was younger even tho my skill has multiplied many times over. This generation is full of pot heads YOLO idiots. I see this on a weekly basis in the car community in ny.

    10. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 09:34 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by VRhooptie View Post
      Not much older now (21) but I've called down a lot driving. I wouldn't do half the things I did when I was younger even tho my skill has multiplied many times over. This generation is full of pot heads YOLO idiots. I see this on a weekly basis in the car community in ny.
      Hate to break this too you, but teenagers were totaling cars and killing themselves back when your father was a twinkle in your grandfather's eye.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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      10-09-2012 09:37 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      Hate to break this too you, but teenagers were totaling cars and killing themselves back when your father was a twinkle in your grandfather's eye.
      I completely understand that. I'm just comparing today's 16-18 olds to when I was that age. Out of all my friends who are car guys, not one got in a wreck or did drugs or even thought about screwing up their privilege of having their car taken away or wrecked. Maybe it's just my circle of friends..

    12. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 09:39 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by VRhooptie View Post
      I completely understand that. I'm just comparing today's 16-18 olds to when I was that age. Out of all my friends who are car guys, not one got in a wreck or did drugs or even thought about screwing up their privilege of having their car taken away or wrecked. Maybe it's just my circle of friends..
      It was just your circle of friends. I promise.
      The car full of kids killing themselves right before graduation while hooning or street racing was a cliche in the 60s.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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    13. Member Shomegrown's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 09:41 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by unintended acceleration View Post
      is not a safety feature, but many people think it is and the car handles better with it.
      Well, that can be true. It's a whole lot easier to "lose it" in my M5 than it is my S4...and that's in the dry. When things get wet, the difference widens even more.

    14. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 09:47 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Shomegrown View Post
      Well, that can be true. It's a whole lot easier to "lose it" in my M5 than it is my S4...and that's in the dry. When things get wet, the difference widens even more.
      True, though the extra grip can instill a false sense of confidence if you don't know how AWD works. Which all goes back to driver's training.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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    15. Member NYCTT225's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 10:45 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by BMP_3918 View Post
      That means everyone else was high. No way in hell the driver was the only one that got high and everyone else was sober
      I thought it was a bit strange as well but maybe, because the driver lived and went straight to the hospital, they were able to test him quicker. Who knows ... I wasn't there so I'm not going to speculate, just sharing what the news was reporting. Tragic story regardless.

    16. 10-09-2012 11:16 PM #121
      RIP hope his parents other passengers parents can cope

      I saw the STI wheel on the news and was liek damnnn

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      10-09-2012 11:33 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by NYCTT225 View Post
      I thought it was a bit strange as well but maybe, because the driver lived and went straight to the hospital, they were able to test him quicker. Who knows ... I wasn't there so I'm not going to speculate, just sharing what the news was reporting. Tragic story regardless.
      I don't know police procedure well enough to know if there's any reason to test the passengers. They're dead after all. The driver is a different story. He's already responsible. Things are going to be different for young Mr. Beer if he was driving under the influence.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    18. Banned Hurt's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 11:50 PM #123
      He should go to jail for 4 counts of murder 1.

      He knew he shouldn't have been driving out past 9PM, without a parent/license carrying adult over 21
      He knew that car was fast, why else would someone want one of those ugly things?
      He knew he shouldn't have had other people in the car with him.
      He knew he was going to be driving fast.
      He pretty much said "hey guys, let me put a gun to your head and see what happens when I pull the trigger!"

      Now, that may seem a little harsh. Well, maybe drop it down to manslaughter at least.

      Also, WTF were his parents THINKING??

      Kid: Mom, Dad, I want a 300hp AWD rally-inspired car for my learners permit.. it's AWD! So safe! It only goes 160MPH tops, don't worry! With so much HP, I can go 0-60 on the highway on ramp in under 5 seconds! Safe merging, too!

      Mom: AWD IS SO SAFE IN THE WINTER! And merging is so difficult without flooring it and banging gears! Crazy drivers these days.

      Dad: Alright, listen to your Mom, so will I, because I want to get laid.. So, here's my credit card!

      Son: You guys are the best! Can I drive without you guys in the car? I read on the internet I could if my car is a STi - it stands for "Safe Transport, indeed", so you don't need an instructor of any sort!

      Mom: No, dear, I have a better idea! You should pack it full of all of your friends and show them how good it does at high speeds because of AWD!

      Dad: Well, if it's on the internet, it must be true.. Do what your mother says.


      Moral of the story is: Kid should do BIG jail time, and he will have to live knowing he killed 4 of his friends for the rest of his life.

    19. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 11:57 PM #124
      It is probably manslaughter. Jail time will depend on whether he was intoxicated.

      I'm not sure what putting a teenager in prison for more than a few years is going to accomplish. Excepting Hogan's kid, in a situation like this, there is little punishment we can probably give for this worse than the knowledge you killed your friend (This is not an argument for no jail).
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      10-10-2012 12:42 AM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by seadoo2006 View Post
      Owned a WRX prior to my GC8 and an STi back in 2007ish for about 6 months ... my GTI cost more than either of them. It largely depends on where you live, but suburban Cleveland was dirt cheap to insure.

      I paid $145/month for my STI, $135/month for my WRX, $100/month for my GC8 and my GTI VR6 was $155/month.

      This is all with $300k/$100k/$300k limits and $1000 collision and $250 comprehensive deductibles. I also have a very "unclean" record.
      Might have had to do with the GTI being a Hatchback and having 6 cylinders as opposed to I'm guessing a sedan body and 5 cylinders. Regardless of turbocharging or actual horsepower, rates are based more off body style and cylnders. Thats why a 5cyl 2.5 jetta costs more to insure than a 2.0t jetta
      Last edited by kt883; 10-10-2012 at 12:45 AM.
      This isn't your normal skyline. This motherfcker is the skyline God would drive if he wasn't busy doing God sh*t like making tsunamis and crap. Its set up to go fast, and go fast sideways. Who doesn't like to get sideway?! Terrorists, thats who. Are you a terrorist? No? Then you need this car.

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      10-10-2012 12:58 AM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      It is probably manslaughter. Jail time will depend on whether he was intoxicated.
      Which is a damn shame that you can get away with murder solely because you were high or drunk.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    22. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-10-2012 01:02 AM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
      Which is a damn shame that you can get away with murder solely because you were high or drunk.
      Uhm, his punishment will be much more serious if he is intoxicated. In California, it is the only way vehicular manslaughter can be raised to 2nd degree murder.

      Also, vehicular manslaughter is manslaughter, not murder, because it lacks the proper intent. There is a big difference between being a dumb**** and shooting someone, even if the result is the same.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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      10-10-2012 01:44 AM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      Uhm, his punishment will be much more serious if he is intoxicated. In California, it is the only way vehicular manslaughter can be raised to 2nd degree murder.

      Also, vehicular manslaughter is manslaughter, not murder, because it lacks the proper intent. There is a big difference between being a dumb**** and shooting someone, even if the result is the same.
      I hope you're right about this.
      Quote Originally Posted by apizzaparty View Post
      never thought once to use my lefty for the brake. sorry in my opinion it is dumb.

    24. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:40 AM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
      I hope you're right about this.
      I'm right in California. Dunno anything about NY law.
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    25. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:20 AM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by geofftii2002 View Post
      And what's your 17 year old kid doing out at 3AM?? A little parental structure goes a long way, you know.
      My son goes to bed at 10pm before school days. He stays up until 11pm or sometimes midnight on Fridays and Saturdays. Rarely, there is a sleep-over we have trouble controlling until 2pm. However, none of his friends (except one) own a car or would drive home at such hours. Also, he is well aware of the cumulative cost of car ownership. I have no idea how the parents in this particular case can afford their son to drive a new WRX or STi. I make a very decent living, but I will have to take out a loan if my son decides he wants a car, and it won't be for more than a few $ thousand. YMMV.
      Aung San Suu Kyi

    26. 10-10-2012 06:45 AM #131
      My first car was a BMW 2002. The day I got my license, on my 16th birthday, I was entrusted with driving my sister and two other classmates to school. Silly me, I took that trust seriously, and we never had a problem of any kind.

      This case is Darwin in action.

    27. Member dieselraver's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 07:28 AM #132
      just saw a friend's facebook post. the guyanese community in richmond hill is tight, having a nice car like the STI makes you even more known. one of his friends knew the kid (Chris Khan?) its tragic that so many lives were lost.

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      10-10-2012 07:40 AM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      I have no idea how the parents in this particular case can afford their son to drive a new WRX or STi. I make a very decent living, but I will have to take out a loan if my son decides he wants a car, and it won't be for more than a few $ thousand. YMMV.
      It is all about vicarious living.
      I have worked with such parents... they work to pay off a new car loan, even put their kids in fancy condos at college (on a huge loan).
      When I start asking questions about expense and such, I typically get the "I don't want my kid to have to go through what I went through" response.
      Oh, you mean all that stuff that helped build your character?
      Yeah, that would suck.

      We usually get several "but I had a (insert some fast car) when I started driving and was fine." comments when we question giving a new driver a high performance car.
      Anomalies do not create a trend.

      Would we give an assault rifle to somebody that's never fired a gun before and say "Have fun.. but be careful"?
      Would you give a large quantity of PCP to somebody that's never done drugs before and say "Now, be careful..(wink wink)"?
      And I have never heard anybody suggest a superbike is a good first motorcycle choice.

      While almost any car made in the last 20 years will go fast enough to fly off the road- given enough room to accelerate- high performance cars can accelerate much quicker to those ultra dangerous speeds.

      And I agree with the no passengers rule with new drivers.
      Peer pressure can be very powerful.
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      10-10-2012 08:22 AM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Peer pressure can be very powerful.
      That is where good parenting comes in or it does not. In this case it probably did not.

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      10-10-2012 09:13 AM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      And I have never heard anybody suggest a superbike is a good first motorcycle choice.
      The sad thing is, I actually HAVE heard people recommending 600 sportbikes as good first motorcycles, to grow into a liter superbike.

      (Even an average 650, which tends to be set up to not have nearly as much high end power, would be a better first motorcycle, but even that's not good.)

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      10-10-2012 09:18 AM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by feels_road View Post
      My son goes to bed at 10pm before school days. He stays up until 11pm or sometimes midnight on Fridays and Saturdays. Rarely, there is a sleep-over we have trouble controlling until 2pm. However, none of his friends (except one) own a car or would drive home at such hours. Also, he is well aware of the cumulative cost of car ownership. I have no idea how the parents in this particular case can afford their son to drive a new WRX or STi. I make a very decent living, but I will have to take out a loan if my son decides he wants a car, and it won't be for more than a few $ thousand. YMMV.
      Those two do not compute. If you make a good living, you shouldn't need a loan to buy a car. Hell, my dad make ~$300k a year as kids and he paid for everything cash, including my sister's four years at Notre Dame, my college, and my other two siblings college educations, in full.

      There is a multitude of difference from the level of this kid to most people. I had friends at my private school that got those 'sweet 16' parties ... you just can't comprehend the level of financial power some people have in this world.

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      10-10-2012 09:28 AM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by seadoo2006 View Post
      Those two do not compute.
      They don't have to. We have no idea what goes out every month at the feels_road household.

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      10-10-2012 09:53 AM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by McBanagon View Post
      They don't have to. We have no idea what goes out every month at the feels_road household.

      exactly. $300,000.00 may go miles in Ohio but come to NYC and that is "comfortable" living.

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      10-10-2012 10:07 AM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by seadoo2006 View Post
      Those two do not compute. If you make a good living, you shouldn't need a loan to buy a car. Hell, my dad make ~$300k a year as kids and he paid for everything cash, including my sister's four years at Notre Dame, my college, and my other two siblings college educations, in full.

      There is a multitude of difference from the level of this kid to most people. I had friends at my private school that got those 'sweet 16' parties ... you just can't comprehend the level of financial power some people have in this world.
      Normally decent living means not having to worry about pinching pennies every month, not top 3% of earners...

      Me, I make a good living, and I take out loans to pay for my cars. Why? cause 1.9% interest is a better investment over 4 years than losing my modest 5% interest on my mutual funds. For some taking loans out makes sense, from a long term profit gained standpoint.

    35. Member bhtooefr's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 10:09 AM #140
      Also, it depends on his standard of "decent living".

      Around here, $50k is a "decent living" (I think the average for my area is under $30k), but if you want a new car, and have a family, you're certainly taking out a loan.

      My parents, though, couldn't even think of buying a car for me - I bought all of my cars with cash. My first car was $1200, and was an 85 Jetta diesel. (This was in 2005, I was 17.)
      Last edited by bhtooefr; 10-10-2012 at 10:12 AM.

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