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    Thread: Autoblog: "The [F10] M5 is an impressive four-door supercar with the 7DCT, but the 6MT erases much of its fire."

    1. Member Uberhare's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:19 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by patrickvr6 View Post
      I think it is funny to read the posts of people that don't like to drive.
      What a silly statement. Of course we like to drive....otherwise we wouldn't be involved in this forum. What you consider fun or ruined is different to someone else. Again, it's subjective.
      The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep.

    2. Member Tuneman7's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:20 PM #27
      I don't see how weight and size are being correlated now to how necessary a manual is in a high performance car. The ZL1, and many of today's larger GT's are heading for that 4,000lbs+ weight figure, should they not offer M/T's for those as well now?

      The point should be here that if it's done, it should be done correctly. And that goes for more than just something like the transmission.

    3. Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:24 PM #28
      I've never quite understood why some people argue that manual transmissions are appropriate only in smaller cars.

      Really, we should all be applauding BMW for offering buyers a choice at all.

    4. Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:26 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      I don't see how weight and size are being correlated now to how necessary a manual is in a high performance car. The ZL1, and many of today's larger GT's are heading for that 4,000lbs+ weight figure, should they not offer M/T's for those as well now?

      The point should be here that if it's done, it should be done correctly. And that goes for more than just something like the transmission.
      I think weight and mission does have something to do with it. The M5 and ZL1 don't really share the same space though. The ZL1 was made to be a track ready 4-seat coupe. A manual works in that case.

      The super sportsedan class i(ie XFR, CTS-V, E63, M5, S6, etc.) just doesn't fit with manuals anymore IMO. I wouldn't want a manual in any of them

    5. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:26 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      I don't see how weight and size are being correlated now to how necessary a manual is in a high performance car. The ZL1, and many of today's larger GT's are heading for that 4,000lbs+ weight figure, should they not offer M/T's for those as well now?

      The point should be here that if it's done, it should be done correctly. And that goes for more than just something like the transmission.
      It's not simply weight and size, but also the purpose of the vehicle and the experience it is intended to provide.

      JustinCSVT is right-on here. And he has the experience to back it up.
      Last edited by Ross1013; 10-09-2012 at 02:29 PM.

    6. Banned SVTDanny's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:27 PM #31
      DCT all the way for me.

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      10-09-2012 02:28 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Uberhare View Post
      What a silly statement. Of course we like to drive....otherwise we wouldn't be involved in this forum. What you consider fun or ruined is different to someone else. Again, it's subjective.
      I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you.

    8. Member Tuneman7's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:35 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      I think weight and mission does have something to do with it. The M5 and ZL1 don't really share the same space though. The ZL1 was made to be a track ready 4-seat coupe. A manual works in that case.

      The super sportsedan class i(ie XFR, CTS-V, E63, M5, S6, etc.) just doesn't fit with manuals anymore IMO. I wouldn't want a manual in any of them
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      It's not simply weight and size, but also the purpose of the vehicle and the experience it is intended to provide.

      JustinCSVT is right-on here. And he has the experience to back it up.
      As I said in an earlier post, while I do think the M5's point is to be somewhat a product of its numbers to me what set it apart from the rest of the cars in that segment was the fact that it was usually the best car to drive, the most involving, and decidedly a driver's car. In that respect, it's not surprising that BMW would continue offering this transmission or companies like Cadillac would still go as far as marketing the added involvement of an M/T for their CTS-V.

      If there was no market or if no one wanted them, they wouldn't offer them.

    9. Member MrKevkevL's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 02:37 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by emmettlodge View Post
      Another bell tolls for the dismal future of the manual.
      The thought of a world with no manuals saddens me
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roketdriver View Post
      Toyota is kind of like the Black Eyed Peas. The majority of their product line is cars for people who don't like cars.

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      10-09-2012 02:38 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
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      10-09-2012 02:42 PM #36
      I seem to recall that the US-only manual in the E60 M5 met with lukewarm reviews as well (in addition to being a bit hobbled by the factory in order to reduce axle tramp)?

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      10-09-2012 02:44 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      It's not simply weight and size, but also the purpose of the vehicle and the experience it is intended to provide.

      JustinCSVT is right-on here. And he has the experience to back it up.
      And yet, the market disagrees with both of you. Which goes to show that "experience" means just about zilch when it comes to purely subjective matters.

    13. 10-09-2012 02:47 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by patrickvr6 View Post
      I think it is funny to read the posts of people that don't like to drive.
      Oh snap!

      I wouldn't call any of these people manual apologists.

      The manumatics that were all the rage for a while there were a blight on the industry.. we can pretty much all agree on that.

      These dual clutch devices are millions of times better than their manumatic counterparts for every day driving so I give them a plus for that.

      And they also get a plus for shifting just a tiny bit faster and allowing us to ring out a touch more power and speed.


      The main gripe for auto has been that with manual you could select what gear you want to be in and you were in control. With the dual clutch boxes.. this is essentially taken care of.. you can be in whatever gear you want to be in so that is no longer a gripe. and the shifts are smooth with dual clutch.. which was a problem with manumatics.. so that is no longer a problem.



      The technology in dual cltuch transmission has risen to a very acceptable state. Even if you love manual.. you have to admit the DCT is a solid piece of technology.


      And it's especially important for BMW, who has never really had a great feeling manual transmission in any car I have ever driven... and I've never really read anything positive about the manual other than it was a good option against the ****astic manumatic options of yor.



      i do take offense with this article claiming that the manual won't last 50k. that is yet to be seen.. and from what we have seen with BMWs manumatic (lasting 18k before needing replacement) the manual, even at 50k, seems like not so bad an option. Time will tell how the DCT stands up... I think it will probably do fine.. and I disagree that the manual would only last 50k.. I think it will do fine on longevity as well. The idea that it isn't possible to make a manual transmission that handles 500 and 600 hp/torx in a 4000 lb vehicle is laughable. The writer of the article should go talk to the people at Mac or Peterbilt and ask them how many thousands of foot pounds of torque their 18 speed manuals can handle while pulling acar carrier full of m5s.


      Like many "apologists" have said... the article is dubious in some ways.. and very subjective for the most part.

      I'm making no apologies for manual transmissions here. The Dual Clutch transmission setups have come a long way and have reached a very acceptable state. But they are still for women who don't know how to shift a car properly on their own and now are for manufacturers that were never good at making a manual shifter to begin with.

    14. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:00 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by x1000rpms View Post
      The Dual Clutch transmission setups have come a long way and have reached a very acceptable state. But they are still for women who don't know how to shift a car properly on their own and now are for manufacturers that were never good at making a manual shifter to begin with.
      Totally disagree. Certain cars are simply better with the dual-clutch transmissions. The M5 is one; the current M3 is another and I am sure the new M3 will be another.

      As you said...the BMW 7-speed never defeats the driver's choice. And it unleashes a new level of power and traction that the 6MT cannot compete with. The 7DCT is the best way to get the most out of the current M-cars and P-cars.

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      10-09-2012 03:02 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by Numbersix View Post
      I seem to recall that the US-only manual in the E60 M5 met with lukewarm reviews as well (in addition to being a bit hobbled by the factory in order to reduce axle tramp)?
      This (although I don't recall the hobbling of the enigne).

      The reality here is that a car like a Miata, which is light, connected, and tossable, needs to have a manual transmission.

      But a huge land barge with a blustering and billowing turbo V8, enough room to seat 5 comfortably, and more layers of sound deadening and leather than most limosines, may not make an ideal match for a manual. The new M5 is supposed to be a giant foretress with maniacal accelaration and grip. Adding a manual isn't going to do much to make the driver feel more connected, but it sure is going to make the car slower.

      To me, the M5 is the like the GT-R -- they are high tech machines designed around DCT transmissions. Adding a manual defeats the purpose of them.
      I TCL.

    16. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:05 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      This (although I don't recall the hobbling of the enigne).

      The reality here is that a car like a Miata, which is light, connected, and tossable, needs to have a manual transmission.

      But a huge land barge with a blustering and billowing turbo V8, enough room to seat 5 comfortably, and more layers of sound deadening and leather than most limosines, may not make an ideal match for a manual. The new M5 is supposed to be a giant foretress with maniacal accelaration and grip. Adding a manual isn't going to do much to make the driver feel more connected, but it sure is going to make the car slower.

      To me, the M5 is the like the GT-R -- they are high tech machines designed around DCT transmissions. Adding a manual defeats the purpose of them.

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      10-09-2012 03:05 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by Chapel View Post
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      10-09-2012 03:08 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Totally disagree. Certain cars are simply better with the dual-clutch transmissions. The M5 is one; the current M3 is another and I am sure the new M3 will be another.

      As you said...the BMW 7-speed never defeats the driver's choice. And it unleashes a new level of power and traction that the 6MT cannot compete with. The 7DCT is the best way to get the most out of the current M-cars and P-cars.
      I totally diasgree. While the shifter in the current M3 is bad (a mistake on BMW's part, that they rectified on the 1M), a swap to the ZHP knob transform it. It's quite fun to drive. True, the DCT is faster, but by no means is the 6MT less fun to drive in the M3. The M5, with 1,000 lbs more to toss around is a different story. I'd want a DCT or some type of quick shifting auto in the M5.

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      10-09-2012 03:09 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by MrKevkevL View Post
      The thought of a world with no manuals saddens me
      Sure, but I want them in the kinds of cars that make sense, like light sports cars and compact sports sedans. I don't need them in 4k lb sedans.

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      10-09-2012 03:13 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      I totally diasgree. While the shifter in the current M3 is bad (a mistake on BMW's part, that they rectified on the 1M), a swap to the ZHP knob transform it. It's quite fun to drive. True, the DCT is faster, but by no means is the 6MT less fun to drive in the M3. The M5, with 1,000 lbs more to toss around is a different story. I'd want a DCT or some type of quick shifting auto in the M5.
      I must admit I'm lacking experience with E9_Ms with the ZHP knob. But I'm pretty sure it can't bang through the gears as quickly or as brutally as the 7DCT does.

      Also, the difference is more like 600lb between the E90/2 and the F10.

      Here's what I don't get. When you drive one of these dual-clutch units in a high-powered car, the soundtrack is almost like a racecar with a sequential box, or a motorcycle. Who doesn't at least understand why that would be desirable in a road car? The sensation is unbelievable.

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      10-09-2012 03:18 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by Uberhare View Post
      "seems to" are the key words here. What you might consider "ruined" I might consider fun. It's purely subjective.
      But can you admit that one's bias might make them think it's fine when it's not? I.e. you've chosen one over the other early on and decided that you will stick with that choice no matter how bad it might be?

      Again, I'd rather drive a manual transmission simply because it gives me the feeling of being connected to the vehicle.
      Since that feeling is entirely subjective, as you say, then isn't it possible that you could use experience to modify that feeling, to understand more than one aspect of the issue, and thus accept and even like more than one kind of method of delivering hp from the engine to the wheels? I mean, I'd bet you can accept the subjectively inferior FWD platform, and I'll bet your experience has taught you that it's actually not so bad in street and in basic performance use, and maybe even preferrable in many situations.


      I understand the technology and how great it can be but it somehow insulates you from the mechanical enjoyment of the car.
      No, only your bias does that. It's mechanical either way and you can enjoy it either way. IF you let yourself.

      A good autobox can be just as satisfying to drive as a good manual, and often more suited to the type of car it's in when discussing heavy semi-luxury and luxury performance vehicles. Now, a bad autobox can distract from the driving experience, but so can a bad manual trans. And from all accounts, the BMW one is the latter.

      I love driving, and I love driving ALL kinds of cars, no matter the engine size and transmission type. I have preferences, but they don't get in the way of finding a way to enjoy any car I get to drive. Which means I get to enjoy a wider variety of cars than the average TCLer. But I wish that more would take on the challenge of opening their minds to the possibilities and learn to enjoy even more cars than I do...
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

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      10-09-2012 03:18 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Here's what I don't get. When you drive one of these dual-clutch units in a high-powered car, the soundtrack is almost like a racecar with a sequential box, or a motorcycle. Who doesn't at least understand why that would be desirable in a road car? The sensation is unbelievable.
      Because many people in here feel some sense of manliness or superiority based upon driving a manual. I admit it, when I was 18 years old, I would make a huge show out of anyone who drove a performance car with an automatic. I guess it was a way for me to pump up my Ego and advertise that I was both: (i) verile; and (ii) capable of driving a manual transmission.

      As I have grown older, this is all laughable to me. I got my 1 series in manual because I love the buttery shifter in the 135i. My next car might be DCT, it might be manual. It depends on what suits the car better.

      But never underestimate the influence of Ego, particularly when it comes to people who pride themselves on their automobile, and therefore by extension the type of transmission it has.
      I TCL.

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      10-09-2012 03:20 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by msrothwell View Post
      At the risk of sounding like an eliteist, when you read the article, the points they make are slightly rediculous.



      That sounds much more fun to me than just steering a car around a track.

      I think the reason that we're car enthusiasts is that we like to have the challenge of getting better at doing the action of driving. What fun is it if you're instantly good at doing an activity? You haven't earned it!
      I think your quote illustrates the beginning of the shift in the automotive press, where they no longer bemoan the lack of a manual, but complain about the need to focus on more than merely "piloting". It is all fine an dandy on the race track, that we're generally slow at multi-tasking and doing so makes for slower track time, and thus anything DCT-like will undoubtedly give us faster times. But even the most well-to-do of us, those with more free time than they know what to do with, only spend so much time at the track.

      Like others here, general involvement is highly entertaining for me, and I'll take that on the street, even if it means I'm a full second slower in the track.
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      10-09-2012 03:21 PM #49
      As a side note, I have been driving a loaner 328i M-Sport with some sort of tiptronic transmission that is actually pretty good (I dont' think it's the DCT, box, though).

      Though the car feels slow compared with my 135i, there is a really cool sense of driving a race car when I rev the N52 to ~6700 rpms, and then snap an upshift on the paddle shifters. Even cooler is doing a "double click" shift down to second when braking for a corner.

      Is it as much fun as heel-toing? Maybe. Is it fun, in and of itself,? You bet.
      I TCL.

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      10-09-2012 03:25 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      Because many people in here feel some sense of manliness or superiority based upon driving a manual. I admit it, when I was 18 years old, I would make a huge show out of anyone who drove a performance car with an automatic. I guess it was a way for me to pump up my Ego and advertise that I was both: (i) verile; and (ii) capable of driving a manual transmission.

      As I have grown older, this is all laughable to me. I got my 1 series in manual because I love the buttery shifter in the 135i. My next car might be DCT, it might be manual. It depends on what suits the car better.

      But never underestimate the influence of Ego, particularly when it comes to people who pride themselves on their automobile, and therefore by extension the type of transmission it has.
      Agreed. Although times were different when you were 18. ATs on performance cars were pretty much a joke. How many 400+hp road cars were there then? So you weren't totally off-base.

      But now, the dual-clutch tech is better. It's just better. And especially in cars like the M5, where as Autoblog said, you want to be making sure your braking/turn-in is right, and not focusing on managing 550ish lb-ft w/your feet.

      That's where the ego comes in. People want to believe they can be that guy that can manage it, so they piss on a car that does it for you and allows you to focus on the business of pointing the car where it needs to go.

      Re: your loaner car, that's definitely the new 8AT. And yeah it does feel racy. Even BMW's slushbox is pretty good now.

      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      No, only your bias does that. It's mechanical either way and you can enjoy it either way. IF you let yourself.

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