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    Thread: Autoblog: "The [F10] M5 is an impressive four-door supercar with the 7DCT, but the 6MT erases much of its fire."

    1. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 04:43 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by curvedinfinity View Post
      IL is underwhelmed because they tested the 6MT, obviously!

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      10-09-2012 04:47 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      I completely don't agree, and I say that as the owner of a vehicle that shares a spiritual link to the M5 - a biggish, luxurious high performance sedan.

      This is not a luxury sport sedan in the vein of an S8. This is an ALL OUT performance sedan designed around DRIVERS. It also happens to be luxurious, which it damn well better be for 6 figures. And if I am buying a luxurious high performance sedan, and I place an emphasis on driving, then I want the luxury of choice...including the interaction of rowing my own gears.

      In the quest for low lap times we seem to have forgotten the tactile elements of DRIVING the car. While I agree that this M5 is not the best it could have been, I bet if they really tried, they could make the manual as entertaining as the DCT. They just didn't try because they are more interested in technology and lap times rather than it being a drivers car.
      Just curious as to which one of the vehicles in your sig you're referring to. If it's your SHO, they are not even remotely close to the same (as someone that owned one) a 240hp low torque 20+ year old tarted up family car has NOTHING to do with a current M5. it's also over 1000lbs lighter and front wheel drive.

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      10-09-2012 04:49 PM #73
      What this thread has turned into:


    4. 10-09-2012 04:51 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Well, they're still offering you that choice. And will continue to do so in the future. So that's not the issue. The issue is that manual development has hit a wall, and that the technology itself is inadequate for getting the most out of cars in the M5/GTR league. It's not that BMW's 6MT is bad, it's just that manuals cannot safely keep up with power like this anymore.

      Also, your GTI, your SHO, and my Si are all 6-second cars. Things happen a lot more slowly and cheaply at these power levels. And I'd agree that none of them are in need of a DCT.
      A few points, though I can see your side of the arguement here...

      1. Yes they are still offering that choice...and given the car's mission and price, they damn well better!

      2. Despite offering a choice, its still a half-ass effort. This class of car should have a slick manual, AND a slick DCT. Again, this caliber of car at this price should offer the luxury of choice, since it's a drivers car. And that choice should not be a half assed effort.

      3. We have had awesome manuals now for going on 30 years (Honda, Mazda, etc). It begs the question: Why can't BMW make a good manual transmission?

      4. I ENJOY driving manual transmissions in ALL my vehicles. Sports hatches, trucks, sports cars, family sedans, economy cars. The caliber of car the M5 is makes no difference - I am a person who loves driving, I like driving stick, and for a $100,000 high performance sedan, I deserve the LUXURY of choosing.
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      10-09-2012 04:51 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      It's not that BMW's 6MT is bad, it's just that manuals cannot safely keep up with power like this anymore..
      Where in the world do you make this stuff up? Seriously cars like the ZR1, GT500, ZL1, CTS-V, Porsche 911 turbo, Porsche GT2 all make BIG hp and do just fine with a manual. I haven't heard of any deaths directly related to manual transmission failures in these cars either. You seriously sound like a fool.

    6. 10-09-2012 04:52 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by XxCoryDxX View Post
      Just curious as to which one of the vehicles in your sig you're referring to. If it's your SHO, they are not even remotely close to the same (as someone that owned one) a 240hp low torque 20+ year old tarted up family car has NOTHING to do with a current M5. it's also over 1000lbs lighter and front wheel drive.
      They are both 4 door family friendly high performance vehiicles. Additionally, back in 1989/early 1990s, the SHO and the M5 were close performance wise. Hence the "spiritual" descriptor.
      Last edited by Maximum_Download; 10-09-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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      10-09-2012 04:53 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by XxCoryDxX View Post
      Just curious as to which one of the vehicles in your sig you're referring to. If it's your SHO, they are not even remotely close to the same (as someone that owned one) a 240hp low torque 20+ year old tarted up family car has NOTHING to do with a current M5. it's also over 1000lbs lighter and front wheel drive.
      When I owned a SHO, I was tempted to make the same comparison. At least between the SHO and the M5 of the same time period.

      The size is there, but in terms of straight-line performance/engine output the SHO was closer to the E36 M3.

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      10-09-2012 04:57 PM #78
      I know some of you will find this ridiculous (and that's fine) but whenever I see those drag races between high-dollar European cars (i.e. M5 vs RS6 or something like that) all I see from the in-car camera view is drivers staring at each others car instead of shifting, and I find that somewhat empty. It just doesn't feel like you are contributing anything to the car accelerating in anyway for some reason. If you prefer it that way so you can concentrate more on the steering I really don't have any counter argument but it is really weird to me.
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    9. 10-09-2012 04:58 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      When I owned a SHO, I was tempted to make the same comparison. At least between the SHO and the M5 of the same time period.

      The size is there, but in terms of straight-line performance/engine output the SHO was closer to the E36 M3.
      You are missing the point.

      Its a big, 4 door sport sedan. So is the M5. Obviously I am not comparing performance, but the premise is the same - they are both drivers cars.
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      10-09-2012 05:08 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Where in the world do you make this stuff up? Seriously cars like the ZR1, GT500, ZL1, CTS-V, Porsche 911 turbo, Porsche GT2 all make BIG hp and do just fine with a manual. I haven't heard of any deaths directly related to manual transmission failures in these cars either. You seriously sound like a fool.
      I was talking more about the safety of the drivetrain than the car's occupants.

      That's part of the reason BMW is developing their next-gen manual with money-shift lockout.

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      10-09-2012 05:12 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      You are missing the point.

      Its a big, 4 door sport sedan. So is the M5. Obviously I am not comparing performance, but the premise is the same - they are both drivers cars.
      Does a drivers car need a manual transmission? If so, why?




      I see the M5 as a "drivers car" in terms of motor and suspension only. Its more of a souped up grand tourer.

    12. 10-09-2012 05:12 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      I was talking more about the safety of the drivetrain than the car's occupants.

      That's part of the reason BMW is developing their next-gen manual with money-shift lockout.
      BMW is founded on the basis of engineering powertrains. THey have made manuals for this power before. There are plenty of manuals out there they can use. And I'd sooner trust a manual behind 700 hp (or so) over an automatic or a dual clutch manual.

      If they cannot make a manual that is refined and can hold this power, shame on them.
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      10-09-2012 05:17 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      BMW is founded on the basis of engineering powertrains. THey have made manuals for this power before. There are plenty of manuals out there they can use. And I'd sooner trust a manual behind 700 hp (or so) over an automatic or a dual clutch manual.
      It's not that it can't handle the power. It's that it can't handle a money shift.

      And when have BMW made a 560hp road car before? You're acting as though they simply stopped offering manuals, a la M-B, saying that their MTs cannot handle the power.

      At this point, whether they're offering it isn't an issue...the issue is, is it better?

      Car mags and people who have driven the cars usually concede that the DCT systems are now offering a better performance-driving experience, especially on expensive high-powered cars.

      The idea that these DCTs somehow dull the driving experience is just like the idea that the GTR drives itself...a product of stubborn nostalgia.
      Last edited by Ross1013; 10-09-2012 at 05:22 PM.

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      10-09-2012 05:26 PM #84
      The misconception of some people that manuals are needed to "ring out the power from a small engine" is getting annoying. If you don't get why people like manuals, stop saying the same stupid shti in every transmission related thread

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      10-09-2012 05:33 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Well, they're still offering you that choice. And will continue to do so in the future. So that's not the issue. The issue is that manual development has hit a wall, and that the technology itself is inadequate for getting the most out of cars in the M5/GTR league. It's not that BMW's 6MT is bad, it's just that manuals cannot safely keep up with power like this anymore.

      Also, your GTI, your SHO, and my Si are all 6-second cars. Things happen a lot more slowly and cheaply at these power levels. And I'd agree that none of them are in need of a DCT.
      What? Safety?
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      10-09-2012 05:35 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      It's not that it can't handle the power. It's that it can't handle a money shift.

      And when have BMW made a 560hp road car before? You're acting as though they simply stopped offering manuals, a la M-B, saying that their MTs cannot handle the power.

      At this point, whether they're offering it isn't an issue...the issue is, is it better?

      Car mags and people who have driven the cars usually concede that the DCT systems are now offering a better performance-driving experience, especially on expensive high-powered cars.

      The idea that these DCTs somehow dull the driving experience is just like the idea that the GTR drives itself...a product of stubborn nostalgia.
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      10-09-2012 08:03 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      It's not that it can't handle the power. It's that it can't handle a money shift.
      What is a money shift? Its not that they cannot mechanically handle power. I believe it is clutch effort. TO handle big power, you go to multiple disc clutches and increased pedal effort. Okay on a huge power trackish car. Nobody with a high power luxo barge street car wants a hugely stiff clutch pedal on a daily basis. Make a 550 hp+ road car? An auto that can handle the power and be manually controlled gives people the best of both worlds. None of these were meant to be "money shift"ed.

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      10-09-2012 08:08 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      It's not that BMW's 6MT is bad, it's just that manuals cannot safely keep up with power like this anymore.


      A manual trans isn't safe behind ~550hp? Since when?

      Maybe you should stick to reviewing Chevy Sonics.

    19. 10-09-2012 08:13 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      I might be one of the few with this line of thinking but, the M5 wasn't always merely just about being the sedan with the most outstanding performance. One of the key aspects that differentiated it from the rest of the pack was its driver focused experience correlating primarily to the handling. The wrap around cockpit, the direct and positive controls, having the involvement of a manual when most of the other hot sedans only offered A/Ts. I feel that the M5 was as much a driver's car as it was BMW's statement of what a super fast sedan could be.
      I have to agree with what MT saying the m5 has went from being a chisel to a sledgehammer.

      That said I think the E39 M5 is going to become the next Porsche 993* as many articles love to mention it as the last truly driver oriented M5
      Last edited by Impeccable; 10-09-2012 at 08:45 PM.

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      10-09-2012 08:15 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by SVTDanny View Post
      A manual trans isn't safe behind ~550hp? Since when?

      Maybe you should stick to reviewing Chevy Sonics.
      W/a nice DCT, you might have avoided that stop sign.

      @Impeccable do you mean 993?
      Last edited by Ross1013; 10-09-2012 at 08:18 PM.

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      10-09-2012 08:23 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by MCTB View Post
      What is a money shift? Its not that they cannot mechanically handle power. I believe it is clutch effort. TO handle big power, you go to multiple disc clutches and increased pedal effort. Okay on a huge power trackish car. Nobody with a high power luxo barge street car wants a hugely stiff clutch pedal on a daily basis. Make a 550 hp+ road car? An auto that can handle the power and be manually controlled gives people the best of both worlds. None of these were meant to be "money shift"ed.
      Good point about the clutch. The one on the GT500 I just drove was extremely heavy. Some like that, and in the Mustang's sphere it works. But the one on the new M5 is apparently not so heavy, according to the artcle.

      When I say 'money-shift' I mean the kind of shift where you're at the top of 3rd, then you screw the pooch and put the car in 2nd instead of 4th. So, no car is meant to be money-shifted.

      Do that on a Miata/BRZ/ITR/S2K/GTI and you'll most likely be able to catch it before the engine over-revs. But on a car w/550+ lb-ft of torque that revs that quickly, it'll be harder to catch it, and the effect on the drivetrain will be much more damaging and expensive.

      I'm guessing a money-shift on a new M5 would be a $20-30k mistake?

      Edit--this current M5 will apparently be the last one to offer a 6MT.
      Last edited by Ross1013; 10-09-2012 at 08:32 PM.

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      10-09-2012 08:31 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      I'm guessing a money-shift on a new M5 would be a $20-30k mistake?

      It could easily be that much, if not more.


      Although some manufacturers occassionally cover such shifts under warranty. I know of one individual in particular who money-shifted a brand new 996 Carrera back in 2000 at a PCA driver's ed event. Bent all valves, etc., basically ruined the engine.

      Porsche ended up covering under warranty as a good will gesture.

      This is a rarity, admittedly.
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    23. 10-09-2012 08:46 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      W/a nice DCT, you might have avoided that stop sign.

      @Impeccable do you mean 993?
      Yep i meant 993

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      10-09-2012 10:33 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post

      Here's what I don't get. When you drive one of these dual-clutch units in a high-powered car, the soundtrack is almost like a racecar with a sequential box, or a motorcycle. Who doesn't at least understand why that would be desirable in a road car? The sensation is unbelievable.
      Actually the soundtrack on the E9X is just as nice with the 6MT. It has a very low inertia flywheel, so heel and toe downshifts are super quick and sound just as good. Obviously the dct is faster, up or down, but that's not the point. On the M3, I don't think you're giving up any of the experience by going with the 6MT. But frankly, if I were to do it again, I'd still go back and forth between picking dct or 6mt.

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      10-10-2012 05:41 AM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      But on a car w/550+ lb-ft of torque that revs that quickly, it'll be harder to catch it, and the effect on the drivetrain will be much more damaging and expensive.
      When you're at the top of 3rd, you grab second, what does the torque output of the engine have to do with anything? The transmission is turning the engine at this point, not the other way around - you will over-rev the engine just like you would in any other car. Do you understand how a manual transmission drivetrain works?

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      10-10-2012 08:15 AM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Good point about the clutch. The one on the GT500 I just drove was extremely heavy. Some like that, and in the Mustang's sphere it works. But the one on the new M5 is apparently not so heavy, according to the artcle.

      When I say 'money-shift' I mean the kind of shift where you're at the top of 3rd, then you screw the pooch and put the car in 2nd instead of 4th. So, no car is meant to be money-shifted.

      Do that on a Miata/BRZ/ITR/S2K/GTI and you'll most likely be able to catch it before the engine over-revs. But on a car w/550+ lb-ft of torque that revs that quickly, it'll be harder to catch it, and the effect on the drivetrain will be much more damaging and expensive.

      I'm guessing a money-shift on a new M5 would be a $20-30k mistake?

      Edit--this current M5 will apparently be the last one to offer a 6MT.
      This guy!

      A V8 will generally have a heavier flywheel than a 4 cylinder car which in your parlance makes it easier to catch this kind of mistake. Not even to mention the amount of time you'd have to be ham fisting the 2nd gear synchromesh to put a car in 2nd instead of 4th, and that gear whine you'd be hearing before putting down the clutch.
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      10-10-2012 08:17 AM #97
      I guess the questions are:

      -Did BMW half-ass THIS manual transmission?
      -Is the 7DCT just so much better?
      -Are the engine's characteristics better suited for an automatic, and was it engineered in conjunction with the DCT? Therefore making reverse engineering a manual more difficult?

      No journalists have complained about the E92 M3 manual, as far as I know...
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      10-10-2012 08:21 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by Krazee View Post
      I guess the questions are:

      -Did BMW half-ass THIS manual transmission?
      -Is the 7DCT just so much better?
      -Are the engine's characteristics better suited for an automatic, and was it engineered in conjunction with the DCT? Therefore making reverse engineering a manual more difficult?

      No journalists have complained about the E92 M3 manual, as far as I know...
      I am betting that its not a transmission issue. Most manual transmissions are pretty good and I dont think that BMW would slack on that component. I believe that they probably designed the car around the auto and threw the manual in there and then had to adapt to that transmission. Not that it was an afterthought but it wasnt the original intention.

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      10-10-2012 08:33 AM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by MCTB View Post
      I am betting that its not a transmission issue. Most manual transmissions are pretty good and I dont think that BMW would slack on that component. I believe that they probably designed the car around the auto and threw the manual in there and then had to adapt to that transmission. Not that it was an afterthought but it wasnt the original intention.
      The MT is a US only option -- the F10 is DCT only in the rest of the world, so that scenario is what popped into my head. BMW tuned and validated the car on the DCT, and then just tossed the MT in for the US market. It works, but the rest of the car wasn't designed around it.
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      10-10-2012 09:31 AM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by curvedinfinity View Post
      The MT is a US only option -- the F10 is DCT only in the rest of the world, so that scenario is what popped into my head. BMW tuned and validated the car on the DCT, and then just tossed the MT in for the US market. It works, but the rest of the car wasn't designed around it.
      Well, theres the answer. Thread over, right???

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      10-10-2012 09:32 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by MCTB View Post
      Well, theres the answer. Thread over, right???
      Not yet, I'm still waiting to hear how a mis-shift on a V8 with 550ft/lbs of torque is more damaging than on an I4 with 100ft/lbs of torque.

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      10-10-2012 10:02 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by curvedinfinity View Post
      The MT is a US only option -- the F10 is DCT only in the rest of the world, so that scenario is what popped into my head. BMW tuned and validated the car on the DCT, and then just tossed the MT in for the US market. It works, but the rest of the car wasn't designed around it.
      The world has officially gone bat-isht crazy. The US gets the MT option...but the ROW gets DCT only?!?!?!

      Mind. Blown.
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      10-10-2012 10:10 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Krazee View Post
      The world has officially gone bat-isht crazy. The US gets the MT option...but the ROW gets DCT only?!?!?!

      Mind. Blown.
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    34. Moderator Krazee's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 10:21 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by MCTB View Post
      ROW is willing to change and realize that new technologies can deliver driver enjoyment and efficiency (with emphasis on the latter)
      I'll call mild bupkiss on that one. If anything, the US has been so enamored by tech, we are constantly looking towards new tech. We have embraced the autotrans and all its variants more than any other market, and mostly made fun of as a result. There are fewer manuals sold here than anywhere else in the world.

      If anything, our obsession with new tech has prevented us from realizing smaller, lighter, more efficient means of transports until recently.
      Project Corrado RS: Keep Up
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      Other items for sale: Sparco, VR6 HVAC box, VR6 radiators, Mocal Oil Cooler: Here

    35. Member patrickvr6's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 10:23 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by MCTB View Post
      ROW is willing to change and realize that new technologies can deliver driver enjoyment and efficiency (with emphasis on the latter)
      No. The fact of the matter is that until this past spring the US was BMW's largest market and we have the clout to tell them what they should produce. As everything else it boils down to money, BMW wants our money so they build what the market demands.

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