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    Thread: Autoblog: "The [F10] M5 is an impressive four-door supercar with the 7DCT, but the 6MT erases much of its fire."

    1. Member Tuneman7's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:27 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Here's what I don't get. When you drive one of these dual-clutch units in a high-powered car, the soundtrack is almost like a racecar with a sequential box, or a motorcycle. Who doesn't at least understand why that would be desirable in a road car?
      Because I drive a road car on regular roads where I couldn't care less about shaving 5 hundredths of a second off my morning commute? Because I'm still young enough to enjoy the involvement of pushing down a clutch pedal and shifting gears myself while doing it in traffic isn't a problem. Because if I'm going to spend $80K++ on a performance car I might want to have the option of transmission among other things.

    2. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:29 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      Because I drive a road car on regular roads where I couldn't care less about shaving 5 hundredths of a second off my morning commute? Because I'm still young enough to enjoy the involvement of pushing down a clutch pedal and shifting gears myself while doing it in traffic isn't a problem. Because if I'm going to spend $80K++ on a performance car I might want to have the option of transmission among other things.
      Just curious here. What sort of experience do you have w/cars in this performance league?

    3. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:35 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Re: your loaner car, that's definitely the new 8AT. And yeah it does feel racy. Even BMW's slushbox is pretty good now.



      Actually, I think my loaner has the older 6-speed auto. It's a 2011 model car (with only 5,700 miles on the clock). Either way, it is a decent transmission. Much snappier than any other autos I can remember driving in recent memory (except, of course, for the PDK transmission in my Uncle's 2011 Turbo S).
      I TCL.

    4. Member rynodyno312's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:37 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Just curious here. What sort of experience do you have w/cars in this performance league?
      This line is getting kind of old, IMO. I don't think it's making you many friends.

    5. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:38 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      Because I drive a road car on regular roads where I couldn't care less about shaving 5 hundredths of a second off my morning commute?
      Most shifting on the commute is done by muscle memory, not because you're saying "oh, look, I shifted. Oh, look, I did it again!" I personally left that phase decades ago. On the day to day commute, removing the need to wiggle your left foot ocasionally out of muscle memory will not remove the fun you get out of commuting OR (and this is the important part) the control you have over where/how you are going and how fast you get there, or what route you take to get there.

      I've commuted back to back on the same route with both my manual Mustang and my automatic BMW and the BMW is as fun to commute in as the Mustang, and I'm in as much control over how I get there. The BMW would not be improved on with a manual, any more than the Mustang would be improved on with an automatic.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    6. 10-09-2012 03:38 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      This (although I don't recall the hobbling of the enigne).

      The reality here is that a car like a Miata, which is light, connected, and tossable, needs to have a manual transmission.

      But a huge land barge with a blustering and billowing turbo V8, enough room to seat 5 comfortably, and more layers of sound deadening and leather than most limosines, may not make an ideal match for a manual. The new M5 is supposed to be a giant foretress with maniacal accelaration and grip. Adding a manual isn't going to do much to make the driver feel more connected, but it sure is going to make the car slower.

      To me, the M5 is the like the GT-R -- they are high tech machines designed around DCT transmissions. Adding a manual defeats the purpose of them.

      I completely don't agree, and I say that as the owner of a vehicle that shares a spiritual link to the M5 - a biggish, luxurious high performance sedan.

      This is not a luxury sport sedan in the vein of an S8. This is an ALL OUT performance sedan designed around DRIVERS. It also happens to be luxurious, which it damn well better be for 6 figures. And if I am buying a luxurious high performance sedan, and I place an emphasis on driving, then I want the luxury of choice...including the interaction of rowing my own gears.

      In the quest for low lap times we seem to have forgotten the tactile elements of DRIVING the car. While I agree that this M5 is not the best it could have been, I bet if they really tried, they could make the manual as entertaining as the DCT. They just didn't try because they are more interested in technology and lap times rather than it being a drivers car.
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    7. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:39 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by rynodyno312 View Post
      This line is getting kind of old, IMO.
      So is the "I must have a manual or I'm not in control" line. Just sayin'.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    8. Member rynodyno312's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:42 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      I completely don't agree, and I say that as the owner of a vehicle that shares a spiritual link to the M5 - a biggish, luxurious high performance sedan.

      This is not a luxury sport sedan in the vein of an S8. This is an ALL OUT performance sedan designed around DRIVERS.
      If the f10 M5 was meant to be an all-out performance sedan designed around drivers, it wouldn't weigh 4000lbs, have any creature comforts, or sell very many.

      The M5, in my opinion, has never been about all-out performance, it is and has always been a sport luxury sedan that is both comfortable enough to commute in and capable enough to have fun in.

    9. Member rynodyno312's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:43 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      So is the "I must have a manual or I'm not in control" line. Just sayin'.
      I agree, but I wasn't talking about cars; I was talking about rhetoric and what seems to me to be an attempt at condescension rather than a legitimate argument.

    10. Member Tuneman7's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:49 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Just curious here. What sort of experience do you have w/cars in this performance league?
      It's not really that relevant to this discussion. In line with BMW's, I've driven both manual and automatic from an E36 318i up to my aunt's E70 X5 4.8 and all in between. They had an F10 M5 DCT at NYIAS this year that I messed around with. (Obviously has no impact on my opinion)

      My first experience riding in one was my uncle's E39 540i. He has an X6 M currently that I have yet to try out.

      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      Most shifting on the commute is done by muscle memory, not because you're saying "oh, look, I shifted. Oh, look, I did it again!" I personally left that phase decades ago. On the day to day commute, removing the need to wiggle your left foot ocasionally out of muscle memory will not remove the fun you get out of commuting OR (and this is the important part) the control you have over where/how you are going and how fast you get there, or what route you take to get there.

      I've commuted back to back on the same route with both my manual Mustang and my automatic BMW and the BMW is as fun to commute in as the Mustang, and I'm in as much control over how I get there. The BMW would not be improved on with a manual, any more than the Mustang would be improved on with an automatic.
      It's not that, like you say, you arbitrarily see yourself shifting and have a reaction like "oh cool!" It's more the feeling and involvement that's gratifying than some kind of mental aspect or otherwise. I haven't reached that point yet where I don't care about that sort of thing or that I feel I need to have the fastest car on the road. (There's always someone/something bigger, better, and faster)

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      10-09-2012 03:50 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Just curious here. What sort of experience do you have w/cars in this performance league?
      What site/publication do you write for? I'd like to read some of your reviews.

    12. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 03:53 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      In the quest for low lap times we seem to have forgotten the tactile elements of DRIVING the car. While I agree that this M5 is not the best it could have been, I bet if they really tried, they could make the manual as entertaining as the DCT. They just didn't try because they are more interested in technology and lap times rather than it being a drivers car.
      There's no way to make a manual that can shift as quickly as a DCT, or put the power down as well.

      Schnellvowfay's point is valid IMO, and was also made by the Autoblog article when they said that the kind of row-your-own fantasy reached its peak with cars like the Miata and S2000. In those cars, it still works.

      @Ryno--when people make strong statements like that, it begs more scrutiny.

      @S0RRY it is mostly videos. Sometimes the boss pays me extra to write some brief accompanying prose. Search YouTube for "RoadflyTV"

      They videos won't knock your socks off or anything, but they've given me the opportunity to drive some cool stuff.
      Last edited by Ross1013; 10-09-2012 at 04:04 PM.

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      10-09-2012 03:54 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      @Ryno--when people make strong statements like that, it begs more scrutiny.
      Fair enough.

    14. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 04:01 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      It's not that, like you say, you arbitrarily see yourself shifting and have a reaction like "oh cool!" It's more the feeling and involvement that's gratifying than some kind of mental aspect or otherwise. I haven't reached that point yet where I don't care about that sort of thing or that I feel I need to have the fastest car on the road. (There's always someone/something bigger, better, and faster)
      I dont need to have the fastest car, either. But I HAVE left behind the fallacious feeling of gratification from "involvement" as I've learned I'm no less involved with my automatic equipped cars than with my manual equipped cars. Maybe my version of involvement comes from working on the cars, rather than shifting them. Maybe it comes from the first mechanical job I did on a car was rebuilding an automatic transmission from the ground up. I definitely learned the mechanicalness of the transmission from that experience, and by rebuilding it for better performance, I understood just how connected and involved I was in driving the car even with an "automatic' transmission. To too many people it's just a magic box that makes the car move.
      I love cars, but the problem is they are like schroedinger's hobby. They're always in a quantum superstate of being both awesome and a huge waste of time and money... until observation momentarily forces them into one state or another.

    15. 10-09-2012 04:26 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      There's no way to make a manual that can shift as quickly as a DCT, or put the power down as well.

      Schnellvowfay's point is valid IMO, and was also made by the Autoblog article when they said that the kind of row-your-own fantasy reached its peak with cars like the Miata and S2000. In those cars, it still works.

      @Ryno--when people make strong statements like that, it begs more scrutiny.

      @S0RRY it is mostly videos. Sometimes the boss pays me extra to write some brief accompanying prose. Search YouTube for "RoadflyTV"

      They videos won't knock your socks off or anything, but they've given me the opportunity to drive some cool stuff.
      You totally missed the point.

      The car is a DRIVERS car. A 4 door sports car that is daily drivable. As a driver with means, I would like the luxury of choosing to shift my own gears, with my own controls. And frankly, if BMW cannot deliver on both the DCT AND a refined manual, then they dropped the ball. Its an M5. It should be 4 door perfection for a performance car driver.

      I don't need an S2000 or a Miata to row my gears. My GTI and my SHO are both riots to drive and rewarding when you get the interface right. That's why I choose manuals in the first damn place.
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      10-09-2012 04:32 PM #66
      Oh hi

      My CTS-V has the 6MT. For me, the comments about how MTs aren't suitable for cars this size don't apply. I've had a DSG and I knew going in the auto for the CTS-V is considerably faster on a circuit track.

      I think the F10 is a different animal though. Different mission that the DCT falls more in line with.

      edit: Oh yeah ....
      Quote Originally Posted by Inside Line
      Underwhelming. The 2013 BMW M5 is underwhelming.

      We're shocked. No, we're disappointed. Is this really an M5 we don't love? An M5 we wouldn't sell our kids in order to buy? An M5 we don't just want to drive all day to go nowhere?

      It is. It absolutely is.

      Honestly, we never thought this day would come. We never thought there'd ever be an M5 we wouldn't kill to own. But here we are, behind the wheel of the all-new turbocharged 560-horsepower M5, undeniably one of the world's fastest and most capable sedans, and we are underwhelmed.
      http://www.insideline.com/bmw/m5/201...and-video.html
      Last edited by curvedinfinity; 10-09-2012 at 04:38 PM.

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      10-09-2012 04:35 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Tuneman7 View Post
      It's not that, like you say, you arbitrarily see yourself shifting and have a reaction like "oh cool!" It's more the feeling and involvement that's gratifying than some kind of mental aspect or otherwise.
      I havent had a feeling of involvement because I shift in years, and I drive a fantastically fun to drive car on a daily basis. I know when to shift and when not to. It just happens. The only time that I pay attention to shifting is when I am going to downshift and pass someone. Even then, its less of an issue. If I am in a techno laden barge, I am going to not want to shift. Im going to want it to do it for me or grab the paddle behind the wheel. No matter how much of a "drivers machine" BMW says their 5 series is, its a GT car with two extra doors. Its a car that can handle the twists and turns of backcountry road and also spirit you comfortably at speed on Route 66. Having a shifter to stir around is not required and probably not desired. If Im commuting or cruising, I would rather just be able to sit back in padded seat, turn on my techno command center whatever and go. The M5 has not been a raw, drivers machine in years. Its a 4 door, 5 passenger GT car.
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      10-09-2012 04:36 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      You totally missed the point.

      The car is a DRIVERS car. A 4 door sports car that is daily drivable. As a driver with means, I would like the luxury of choosing to shift my own gears, with my own controls. And frankly, if BMW cannot deliver on both the DCT AND a refined manual, then they dropped the ball. Its an M5. It should be 4 door perfection for a performance car driver.
      Matt, it's pretty clear that some people just don't get it. On both sides of the argument--as well. But I like your point about automotive perfection. If automotive perfection to you is a high hp mid sized sedan that devour straights and turns with equal ease AND the ability to do so with a manual, then that's your thing. If BMW is trying to make everyone's dreams come true by offering a manual, but not doing at as well as they could (but really, they aren't generally known for the feel of their manual transmissions anyway), I think they did fail, as you say.

      It's a BMW and an expensive one at that---why not do it the best you can. Then again, maybe the review is far more critical than necessary.

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      10-09-2012 04:38 PM #69
      At the end of the day, the reality is--BMW has offered it here with a manual.

      People with appropriate means can order one (I'll bet there won't be many 6MT cars sitting in dealer inventory) and decide for themselves if the F10 M5 is indeed better with a manual or not.

      I personally doubt it. (I don't think many of BMW's manual gearboxes are amazing out of the gate, and I question whether it would work better than the DCT behind that engine. The DCT is really that good.)

      But hey, BMW at least made it available, thus once again separating themselves from M-B and Audi.

    20. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 04:40 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      You totally missed the point.

      The car is a DRIVERS car. A 4 door sports car that is daily drivable. As a driver with means, I would like the luxury of choosing to shift my own gears, with my own controls. And frankly, if BMW cannot deliver on both the DCT AND a refined manual, then they dropped the ball. Its an M5. It should be 4 door perfection for a performance car driver.

      I don't need an S2000 or a Miata to row my gears. My GTI and my SHO are both riots to drive and rewarding when you get the interface right. That's why I choose manuals in the first damn place.
      Well, they're still offering you that choice. And will continue to do so in the future. So that's not the issue. The issue is that manual development has hit a wall, and that the technology itself is inadequate for getting the most out of cars in the M5/GTR league. It's not that BMW's 6MT is bad, it's just that manuals cannot safely keep up with power like this anymore.

      Also, your GTI, your SHO, and my Si are all 6-second cars. Things happen a lot more slowly and cheaply at these power levels. And I'd agree that none of them are in need of a DCT.

    21. Member Ross1013's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 04:43 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by curvedinfinity View Post
      IL is underwhelmed because they tested the 6MT, obviously!

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      10-09-2012 04:47 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfVIDriver View Post
      I completely don't agree, and I say that as the owner of a vehicle that shares a spiritual link to the M5 - a biggish, luxurious high performance sedan.

      This is not a luxury sport sedan in the vein of an S8. This is an ALL OUT performance sedan designed around DRIVERS. It also happens to be luxurious, which it damn well better be for 6 figures. And if I am buying a luxurious high performance sedan, and I place an emphasis on driving, then I want the luxury of choice...including the interaction of rowing my own gears.

      In the quest for low lap times we seem to have forgotten the tactile elements of DRIVING the car. While I agree that this M5 is not the best it could have been, I bet if they really tried, they could make the manual as entertaining as the DCT. They just didn't try because they are more interested in technology and lap times rather than it being a drivers car.
      Just curious as to which one of the vehicles in your sig you're referring to. If it's your SHO, they are not even remotely close to the same (as someone that owned one) a 240hp low torque 20+ year old tarted up family car has NOTHING to do with a current M5. it's also over 1000lbs lighter and front wheel drive.

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      10-09-2012 04:49 PM #73
      What this thread has turned into:


    24. 10-09-2012 04:51 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      Well, they're still offering you that choice. And will continue to do so in the future. So that's not the issue. The issue is that manual development has hit a wall, and that the technology itself is inadequate for getting the most out of cars in the M5/GTR league. It's not that BMW's 6MT is bad, it's just that manuals cannot safely keep up with power like this anymore.

      Also, your GTI, your SHO, and my Si are all 6-second cars. Things happen a lot more slowly and cheaply at these power levels. And I'd agree that none of them are in need of a DCT.
      A few points, though I can see your side of the arguement here...

      1. Yes they are still offering that choice...and given the car's mission and price, they damn well better!

      2. Despite offering a choice, its still a half-ass effort. This class of car should have a slick manual, AND a slick DCT. Again, this caliber of car at this price should offer the luxury of choice, since it's a drivers car. And that choice should not be a half assed effort.

      3. We have had awesome manuals now for going on 30 years (Honda, Mazda, etc). It begs the question: Why can't BMW make a good manual transmission?

      4. I ENJOY driving manual transmissions in ALL my vehicles. Sports hatches, trucks, sports cars, family sedans, economy cars. The caliber of car the M5 is makes no difference - I am a person who loves driving, I like driving stick, and for a $100,000 high performance sedan, I deserve the LUXURY of choosing.
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      10-09-2012 04:51 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by Ross1013 View Post
      It's not that BMW's 6MT is bad, it's just that manuals cannot safely keep up with power like this anymore..
      Where in the world do you make this stuff up? Seriously cars like the ZR1, GT500, ZL1, CTS-V, Porsche 911 turbo, Porsche GT2 all make BIG hp and do just fine with a manual. I haven't heard of any deaths directly related to manual transmission failures in these cars either. You seriously sound like a fool.

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