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    Thread: PayPal claim filed against me. What to do?

    1. Member phil123's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:45 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      Again, good luck with that.
      If I was a buyer and you pulled that kinda crap on me, my next call would be to my attorney, and you'd be issuing me a refund with a quickness.
      No I would not.

      Here is how the "scam" plays out.

      Seller sells the wheels
      Scammer reports that he only got 2
      Seller reports a claim to UPS
      Scammer reports a claim to paypal
      Seller refunds the money
      Scammer collects the money
      Sellers claim with UPS is resolved with the wheels being delivered to the person.

      So in this situation, the buyer/scammer would get 4 wheels and 1/2 his money back.

      What Gaston SHOULD do, in my opinion, is file the claim, BUT ALSO TELL UPS THAT IF THE PACKAGE IS FOUND TO RETURN IT TO YOU AND NOT TO SEND IT TO THE BUYER

      The default method is to ship it to the destination. I do believe UPS will charge you for the shipping to your residence/work, but its better than losing all the money.
      Last edited by phil123; 10-09-2012 at 06:48 PM.
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    2. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:45 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by MeineFolks'wagen View Post
      I'd be curious what the actual theft rate is on UPS, Fed Ex, etc. I thought I had heard years ago that it was pretty high. Especially for drivers - all they have to do is drive to an address, scan the package into their system, and then drive off with it. As far as their computer system is concerned, the package was delivered because it was scanned. The fact that the driver never actually dropped it on the porch would not generally be known. I could imagine something like having a secondary vehicle parked along your route (or something similar) where you could drop the packages that you wanted to keep, who would know? GPS tracking on the truck would show you were on your route, the company computer system says it was delivered, and unless someone actually had video of you never showing up (which yes, I know, does seem to be becoming more popular nowadays), who would know? It's the buyer's word against the shipping company's computer system basically. The seller would rely on their tracking to show that it was delivered, they'd never know if it was actually stolen or not. Just sayin'......Anyone on here work or ever work for the major companies?

      How many packages go missing on a particular driver's route before someone starts noticing?

    3. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:47 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      No I would not.

      Here is how the "scam" plays out.

      Seller sells the wheels
      Scammer reports that he only got 2
      Seller reports a claim to UPS
      Scammer reports a claim to paypal
      Seller refunds the money
      Scammer collects the money
      Sellers claim with UPS is resolved with the wheels being delivered to the person.

      So in this situation, the buyer/scammer would get 4 wheels and 1/2 his money back.

      What Gaston SHOULD do, in my opinion, is file the claim, BUT ALSO TELL UPS THAT IF THE PACKAGE IS FOUND TO RETURN IT TO YOU AND NOT TO SEND IT TO THE SHIPPER

      The default method is to ship it to the destination. I do believe UPS will charge you for the shipping to your residence/work, but its better than losing all the money.
      Wow, no. Once the seller began the claim with UPS and issued the refund, if and when the wheels were found they would be returned to the seller. If UPS ended up sending the wheels the buyer at the conclusion of that, the seller would be notified and would then have recourse against the buyer for the property or the amount refunded. You apparently have a 6 years old's understanding of consumer transactions.

    4. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:49 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      No I would not.

      Here is how the "scam" plays out.

      Seller sells the wheels
      Scammer reports that he only got 2
      Seller reports a claim to UPS
      Scammer reports a claim to paypal
      Seller refunds the money
      Scammer collects the money
      Sellers claim with UPS is resolved with the wheels being delivered to the person.

      So in this situation, the buyer/scammer would get 4 wheels and 1/2 his money back.

      What Gaston SHOULD do, in my opinion, is file the claim, BUT ALSO TELL UPS THAT IF THE PACKAGE IS FOUND TO RETURN IT TO YOU AND NOT TO SEND IT TO THE SHIPPER

      The default method is to ship it to the destination. I do believe UPS will charge you for the shipping to your residence/work, but its better than losing all the money.
      Uhm, UPS says the wheels haven't been delivered. They are lost in the system. Barring a massive glitch in UPS that the buyer would have no control over, no one disputes that they weren't delivered. Barring the possible unfounded claim about OP being uncommunicative, buyer is the most innocent party here.
      ---
      Somewhere, possibly on TCL, there is another thread where the buyer is bitching that OP scammed him, send him 2 of 4 wheels and won't give him the money back. And because in that community, OP is a member, a part of the club, everyone is rallying support around him. And that amuses the **** out of me.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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    5. Member phil123's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:50 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      Wow, no. Once the seller began the claim with UPS and issued the refund, if and when the wheels were found they would be returned to the seller. If UPS ended up sending the wheels the buyer at the conclusion of that, the seller would be notified and would then have recourse against the buyer for the property or the amount refunded. You apparently have a 6 years old's understanding of consumer transactions.
      Have you actually gone through the process or are you just talking out your ass?

      This happened about 6 months ago with a steering wheel that I shipped.

      I did EXACTLY what I said and had it handled in a much more timely situation than what you are saying.
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    6. Member TooFitToQuit's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:50 PM #111
      Hence why I make people pay me as a "gift" = no claims process

    7. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:52 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by TooFitToQuit View Post
      Hence why I make people pay me as a "gift" = no claims process
      You know that is one of the biggest scam flags out there?
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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    8. Member phil123's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:52 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      Uhm, UPS says the wheels haven't been delivered. They are lost in the system. Barring a massive glitch in UPS that the buyer would have no control over, no one disputes that they weren't delivered. Barring the possible unfounded claim about OP being uncommunicative, buyer is the most innocent party here.
      If Gaston has told UPS to return the wheels to him if found I have no issues with him issuing the person a refund.
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      10-09-2012 06:53 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      No I would not.

      Here is how the "scam" plays out.

      Seller sells the wheels
      Scammer reports that he only got 2
      .
      Scammer? Really? The BUYER did not recieve all 4 wheels which he PAID for. How is he a Scammer? get real.

    10. Member TooFitToQuit's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:53 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      You know that is one of the biggest scam flags out there?
      I just sold about ten different transactions all paid as gifts. With good contact, they couldn't care less.

    11. Member phil123's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:53 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by a2a4raddo View Post
      Scammer? Really? The BUYER did not recieve all 4 wheels which he PAID for. How is he a Scammer? get real.
      if he was running a scam...
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    12. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:54 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      If Gaston has told UPS to return the wheels to him if found I have no issues with him issuing the person a refund.
      I was assuming he's not a moron, and he did that.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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    13. Member phil123's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:55 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      I was assuming he's not a moron, and he did that.
      He did post on the car lounge on what he should do...

      j/k, i'm sure i've met Gaston and just giving him some sh!t
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    14. Moderator Harv's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:58 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by TooFitToQuit View Post
      Hence why I make people pay me as a "gift" = no claims process
      Yeeeeah, don't do that.

      If Paypal see you are accepting payment for goods under the gift option they will try to **** you so hard it's not even funny.

      They make it so miserable that there are actually forums out there dedicated to dealing with this issue.

    15. Member TooFitToQuit's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:59 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Harv View Post
      Yeeeeah, don't do that.

      If Paypal see you are accepting payment for goods under the gift option they will try to **** you so hard it's not even funny.

      They make it so miserable that there are actually forums out there dedicated to dealing with this issue.

      Seriously?

      I've only done it about 40 times and not very frequently.

    16. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 06:59 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      Have you actually gone through the process or are you just talking out your ass?

      This happened about 6 months ago with a steering wheel that I shipped.

      I did EXACTLY what I said and had it handled in a much more timely situation than what you are saying.
      Once a buyer/consumer requests and receives a refund for a purchased item never received, he forfeits any right to the item in question. Now, can the consumer still steal it? Possibly. But the threat of someone stealing from you does not give you the right to improperly withhold a refund for products never delivered.
      If you as a seller file a claim with UPS for a lost item for which you have refunded the buyer, the package or compensation will be sent to you the seller upon resolution of the claim, not the buyer. Any shipment of the goods to the buyer at that point would have occurred in error and you would have legal recourse to have the property or cash equivalent returned to you by the buyer.
      There is a correct way to conduct business, and a shady/internet/mom's basement way to conduct business. You apparently prefer the latter.
      Last edited by jrmcm; 10-09-2012 at 07:02 PM.

    17. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:00 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by Harv View Post
      Yeeeeah, don't do that.

      If Paypal see you are accepting payment for goods under the gift option they will try to **** you so hard it's not even funny.

      They make it so miserable that there are actually forums out there dedicated to dealing with this issue.
      That too. Even with legit gifts, they will freeze your account pretty quick if you have any volume.
      Note that if I do a PP with a credit card (via gift or other), I can cancel that transaction and PP will probably **** you even harder than they would through dispute resolution.

      Quote Originally Posted by TooFitToQuit View Post
      Seriously?

      I've only done it about 40 times and not very frequently.
      Yes, talk to somethingawful about their Katrina donations. And that was real gifts.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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    18. Member phil123's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:04 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      Once a buyer/consumer requests and receives a refund for a purchased item never received, he forfeits any right to the item in question. Now, can the consumer still steal it? Possibly. But the threat of someone stealing from you does not give you the right to improperly withhold a refund for products never delivered.
      If you as a seller file a claim with UPS for a lost item for which you have refunded the buyer, the package or compensation will be sent to you the seller upon resolution of the claim, not the buyer. Any shipment of the goods to the buyer at that point would have occurred in error and you would have legal recourse to have the property or cash equivalent returned to you by the buyer.
      There is a correct way to conduct business, and a shady/internet/mom's basement way to conduct business. You apparently prefer the latter.
      I have bolded the incorrect portion. The package, if found, will be sent to the buyer, UNLESS you tell UPS to ship the package back to you.

      And your assumptions are not correct.
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    19. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:06 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      I have bolded the incorrect portion.

      And your assumptions are not correct.
      Yes they are. Any shipment of the goods to the buyer at that point is in error (I'm not saying it doesn't happen). If it is shipped to the buyer, you would be notified, and would then have recourse with the buyer to collect YOUR property or money.

    20. Member phil123's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:09 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      Yes they are. Any shipment of the goods to the buyer at that point is in error (I'm not saying it doesn't happen). If it is shipped to the buyer, you would be notified, and would then have recourse with the buyer to collect YOUR property or money.
      Yes, and at what point is it not worth it?
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    21. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:11 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      Yes, and at what point is it not worth it?
      I guess that's up to you to decide for yourself. But again, that does not make it acceptable for you to improperly withhold a refund.

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      10-09-2012 07:11 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by TooFitToQuit View Post
      Seriously?

      I've only done it about 40 times and not very frequently.
      http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/o...s-anymore.html


      I have a Paypal account currently frozen since December 17th for 180 days (6 months) with $10k in it. It's locked until June 17th.

      I was sending a lot of Gift payments to a lot of people & I was sending Gift payments for my thread on here:
      http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/n...s-etc-etc.html

      They sent me an email saying there was suspicious activity & they needed my license, a bill to my confirmed address, phone bill to verify the number they had on file etc all to be faxed to them.

      I figured no problem & sent them what they asked for.

      They then emailed me back saying the fax wasn't clear. I went to Fedex/Kinkos & the fax was fine. So I did it again & they sent an email saying they needed a fax of my social security card & a credit card statement in my name to my confirmed address. I felt like that was way too much information to be sending to India. (And before you ask, this was not a scam, always updated IN Paypal & always verified by calling Paypal).

      So finally when I told them I wasn't going to send them a copy of my SS# & credit card information, they told me they are locking my account for 180 days (6 months) & I'll have to wait until that time is up to withdraw my money or request a check.

      After all this happened to me, I started doing my research & it seems Paypal shuts down a TON of accounts every day for any kind of reason.

      I now never send any payments as gift or anything personal through the Paypal account that I still have running. If that account were to also be locked, my business would be devastated.

      They are cracking down on money laundering and I guess with all of the gift payments being sent every which direction it's easy to launder money around.

      EDIT:
      I would advise to never keep any kind of substantial amount of money in the account because Paypal can lock it at any moment without a reason. Paypal is NOT a bank, they don't have the same rules as banks do. Paypal can & will lock your account for any reason they see fit. They have over 10k of mine locked up for 6 months invested in a money market account gaining THEM interest. Will I see any of that interest? NO.

      I have read that at any given time Paypal has over $1 Billion dollars locked up collecting interest.

    23. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:13 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      Yes they are. Any shipment of the goods to the buyer at that point is in error (I'm not saying it doesn't happen). If it is shipped to the buyer, you would be notified, and would then have recourse with the buyer to collect YOUR property or money.
      I have to agree with Mr. 123 here, you should just call UPS and change the delivery address of the two missing packages to your address (this is really easy) and reverse the transaction. At minimum to avoid having to pay return shipping.

      I also don't understand why we're picking over nits. Oh wait, TCL does as TCL does.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
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    24. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:15 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      I have to agree with Mr. 123 here, you should just call UPS and change the delivery address of the two missing packages to your address (this is really easy) and reverse the transaction. At minimum to avoid having to pay return shipping.

      I also don't understand why we're picking over nits. Oh wait, TCL does as TCL does.
      My point is, once you start a claim with them, they are going to return the package to you if found, unless they f*@k up, which I concede can happen, and is the reason I laid out the notion of recourse at that point.
      And yes of course you can reiterate to them that you want the shipment sent back to you if found. But still, that has nothing to do with not paying the buyer the refund until the UPS claim is settled and paid with you.

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      10-09-2012 07:18 PM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      I guess that's up to you to decide for yourself. But again, that does not make it acceptable for you to improperly withhold a refund.
      Mine example was $200, and I believe Gastons is in the $1600 range.

      Then again norcal is only about 6 hours away
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      10-09-2012 07:18 PM #131
      I've had issues with PP before, resulting in frozen accounts. Luckily I keep a $0.00 balance.

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      10-09-2012 07:19 PM #132
      Hello everyone. Thank you all for your responses whether they were helpful, funny, stupid, etc. Anyway, to answer some of your questions and concerns:

      Quote Originally Posted by Krazee View Post
      What happens when you track shipment?
      If you shipped 4 boxes, even with one tracking number, it's says how many are delivered.
      If all 4 delivered, your absolved. Buyer can't fake that.
      If he refused two packages, you'll get them back.

      With tracking numbers, it's hard for a dead-beat buyer to scam.
      The wheels were shipped in 4 different packages with 4 different tracking numbers. 2 of them made it. One is in Anaheim and the other is in Ontario, both nowhere near their original destination.

      Quote Originally Posted by ChiTownA34DR View Post
      That is the problem with Paypal. The buyer is always right. IMO, the shipper is at fault and the buyer did not opt for the insurance. It is a matter of a claim between the buyer and shipper in my eyes, but Paypal will side otherwise. It is a shame.

      I assume you have all the shipping information i.e. tracking number and receipt of shipment that UPS gives? Those might save your anus....
      I do have all receipts given to me, however, when I talked to a PayPal rep today, she said that I might just be SOL even though I have everything documented. She agreed with the fact that it wasn't my fault, but they do not deal with UPS directly.

      Quote Originally Posted by abeR View Post
      I wont use UPS to ship car parts. ever.


      OP - you have 4 recpts showing these were shipped?
      yes

      Quote Originally Posted by FACTORYBOOST View Post
      Change your phone number, close your Paypal account and move.

      Just kidding, but I would definitely be all over UPS about the missing 2 wheels.
      The claim filed with UPS has been closed, and the wheels are officially lost. UPS sent a check to the UPS store where I shipped them from, and it should be ready for me in the following day or 2. The problem is that it is only $100/package, and we all know that RS's are not $100 wheels.

      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      I'm pretty sure it is on the seller unless you explicitly offered to buy insurance for an extra charge, and he declined.

      Think about it this way: If you order something from Amazon, and it doesn't get here, who do you expect to eat the cost? Amazon. Insurance protects the seller, not the buyer.


      And for those screaming scam: OP states he tracked them and the two wheels were listed as not delivered.

      You should, however, go after UPS for whatever you can get.
      See above. I've tried with UPS, but they can suck my dick. It really sucks.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hostile View Post
      To the posters saying the buyer is a scammer- UPS lost the wheels, how does that make the buyer a scammer?
      I'm still trying to figure out why people are saying I'm getting scammed lol

      Quote Originally Posted by Hostile View Post
      OP not insuring these wheels was stupid.
      I agree. I just didn't think that it would be on me to pay for it.

      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      It's a pretty simple process.

      Buyer collects refund from seller.
      Seller collects compensation from UPS.
      Seller learns lesson regarding shipping insurance.
      yes. Never shipping anything expensive without insurance ever again. It sucks, and I hate my life for it, especially if I lose this case.


      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      Just out of curiousity, who is this guy in NORCAL?
      I don't think it would be smart of me to post his name lol

      Quote Originally Posted by phil123 View Post
      No I would not.

      Here is how the "scam" plays out.

      Seller sells the wheels
      Scammer reports that he only got 2
      Seller reports a claim to UPS
      Scammer reports a claim to paypal
      Seller refunds the money
      Scammer collects the money
      Sellers claim with UPS is resolved with the wheels being delivered to the person.

      So in this situation, the buyer/scammer would get 4 wheels and 1/2 his money back.

      What Gaston SHOULD do, in my opinion, is file the claim, BUT ALSO TELL UPS THAT IF THE PACKAGE IS FOUND TO RETURN IT TO YOU AND NOT TO SEND IT TO THE BUYER

      The default method is to ship it to the destination. I do believe UPS will charge you for the shipping to your residence/work, but its better than losing all the money.
      Like I said, I'm almost positive it's not a scam. The tracking numbers show that 2 of the wheels never made it. The buyer never received 2 of the wheels and wants his money back for not receiving them.
      ۟roJerks

      Let's help Colin!

    28. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:21 PM #133
      The good news is that none of these wheels are listed as delivered. There's probably at least a 50% chance you'll get them back. Eventually.
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    29. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:21 PM #134
      Very clearly you owe your buyer a refund for 2 wheels.

    30. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:22 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      The good news is that none of these wheels are listed as delivered. There's probably at least a 50% chance you'll get them back. Eventually.
      Probably so. Boxes that large are likely to be noticed

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      10-09-2012 07:24 PM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      How many packages go missing on a particular driver's route before someone starts noticing?
      Well obviously this isn't something you would do on a daily basis - but every once in a while? Maybe. People have already said that packages go "missing" all the time (dropped at wrong houses, etc.). Again, obviously if you had ten packages go "missing" on any given day and were establishing a pattern, someone would notice. But every once in a while, I would think you'd be OK.

      The whole thing is kind of shady anyway and I can feel everyone's pain on both sides. I've had very little interaction with Pay Pal, but what little I've done has been positive. I've only ever had one thing that I ordered not show up and the seller sent me another one with no questions asked. I'll definitely do the insurance thing the next time I do anything after reading this though.

    32. Member TM87's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:24 PM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by jrmcm View Post
      My point is, once you start a claim with them, they are going to return the package to you if found, unless they f*@k up, which I concede can happen, and is the reason I laid out the notion of recourse at that point.
      And yes of course you can reiterate to them that you want the shipment sent back to you if found. But still, that has nothing to do with not paying the buyer the refund until the UPS claim is settled and paid with you.
      Since you are pushing so hard on refund I have a question for you:
      -would you refund all the money w out buyer sending you 2 wheels back or wait till you receive 2 wheels then issue a refund??
      "Your pants too tight,your wheels too bright"

    33. Member nm+'s Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:25 PM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by MeineFolks'wagen View Post
      Well obviously this isn't something you would do on a daily basis - but every once in a while? Maybe. People have already said that packages go "missing" all the time (dropped at wrong houses, etc.). Again, obviously if you had ten packages go "missing" on any given day and were establishing a pattern, someone would notice. But every once in a while, I would think you'd be OK.
      Eh, they lose a lot fewer than you think. That said, a decent reason to go signature required.

      I do like that fedex will now just deliver to the nearest Kinkos. Much easier and safer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
      The Car Lounge likes to compare apples to llamas

    34. Member jrmcm's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:27 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by TM87 View Post
      Since you are pushing so hard on refund I have a question for you:
      -would you refund all the money w out buyer sending you 2 wheels back or wait till you receive 2 wheels then issue a refund??
      My personal preference would be to arrange to have the two wheels he did receive shipped back to me and issue a refund for all 4. That way if I ever recovered the lost two, I'd have the full set, which would be easier to sell. As for the timing of the refund. It's basically just another sale transaction, him selling me back the wheels at the original price. Go through paypal again, and I'd have the same rights he did if I sent him the money and I never received the wheels.

    35. Member mikegilbert's Avatar
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      10-09-2012 07:27 PM #140
      Two words that will save you loads of trouble in the future: Signature confirmation
      PM Travy℠ |flickr | mikegilbertphotography.com | Everything you need to know | » | Scratch-It™
      The people around here tuck their teeshirts into their jeans. So a sense of humor will not be welcomed.

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