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    Thread: Supreme Court to rule on affirmative action case.

    1. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 02:55 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      yup, this.

      this thread rocks... white dudes telling guys who (presumably) arent white "how they should just buck up"



      i OT
      what can we (white dudes) say? We're used to being in charge.


      ba-dum-chhssssss


      just kidding, folks!

    2. Senior Member FlashRedGLS1.8T's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 02:56 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      yup, this.

      this thread rocks... white dudes telling guys who (presumably) arent white "how they should just buck up"



      i OT
      What next, poor people passing laws affecting multi-millionaires? What is the world coming to?

    3. Senior Member FlashRedGLS1.8T's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 02:57 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      what can we (white dudes) say? We're used to being in charge.


      ba-dum-chhssssss


      just kidding, folks!
      Most of my heritage is Irish/native american....we have sh!t luck brother.

    4. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:05 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by FlashRedGLS1.8T View Post
      What next, poor people passing laws affecting multi-millionaires? What is the world coming to?
      not if the supreme court can help it...

      wait a minute, im begining to sense a trend... i just cant quite put my finger on it...

    5. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:28 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by NyteGTI View Post
      umm you see anybody in here with great grandfathers that went to Harvard & setup trust funds for them & got them into Harvard? I couldn't care less whether AA stays or goes but using that as an example makes you look like the ignorant southerner that most people sterotype southern white males to be. don't use the 1% as the norm in future conversations & you'll get ALOT further. what happened in this case was unfair to EVERYONE not just certain races... wake up
      That appeared to be an example of the sort of advantages AA is targeted at, not an exhaustive list. Pretty sure you're imagining this class warfare stuff, as it didn't enter the conversation before you.

    6. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:30 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by FlashRedGLS1.8T View Post
      I don't think society should institute broad rules applying to a class of people based on race. I understand that some may not be able to overcome obstacles without assistance.

      All of the mights, odds are, probably...used in these discussions even point to that.
      That is what AA is: a broad rule applied to a class of people based on race. What would you prefer? A case-by-case analysis of everyone's background to see if they're disadvantaged because of race might avoid some of the outlying unfairnesses of AA that you complain about, but at 100x the cost.

      AA does a pretty good job of addressing racial unfairness, while still being practical to implement.

    7. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:31 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by FlashRedGLS1.8T View Post
      I don't know about you but my drunk and drug addicted parents that didn't graduate high school taught me everything I know about pulling my self up by my boot straps. Or not.
      That isn't a problem AA is targeted at.

      If your requirement is that AA (or any other such program) address ALL evils in society and do so perfectly, no such program would ever be implemented.

    8. 10-10-2012 03:37 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      That appeared to be an example of the sort of advantages AA is targeted at, not an exhaustive list. Pretty sure you're imagining this class warfare stuff, as it didn't enter the conversation before you.
      that also appears to be an extreme example to defend a law for the GENERAL public. if AA was aimed anywhere near the "my father got me into harvard/yale"'s of the US we'd be having a different discussion.. I insighted no such class warfare, but thanks for the credit
      Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkEnergist View Post
      Psssh. I suck dick for the glory. I buy my cocaine.
      Quote Originally Posted by Captain 'Murica! View Post
      I personally have taken it upon myself to try and exterminate as many cows as possible, one filet or ribeye at a time. Join the call to arms, brothers! To the grill!!

    9. Member BmwFanBoy's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:41 PM #79
      Its funny after 3 pages no one brought up Asians needing AA. But of course blacks, Mexicans, and islanders need AA

    10. Senior Member FlashRedGLS1.8T's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:46 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Its funny after 3 pages no one brought up Asians needing AA. But of course blacks, Mexicans, and islanders need AA

    11. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:47 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by ValveCoverGasket View Post
      not if the supreme court can help it...

      wait a minute, im begining to sense a trend... i just cant quite put my finger on it...
      They're making us keep Obamacare, so STFU.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    12. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:48 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Its funny after 3 pages no one brought up Asians needing AA. But of course blacks, Mexicans, and islanders need AA
      Or the Jews.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    13. Member BmwFanBoy's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:49 PM #83
      I forgot about eastern Indians don't need AA neither. All covered now proceed with this thread.

    14. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:54 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by NyteGTI View Post
      that also appears to be an extreme example to defend a law for the GENERAL public. if AA was aimed anywhere near the "my father got me into harvard/yale"'s of the US we'd be having a different discussion.. I insighted no such class warfare, but thanks for the credit
      Again, it's just an example. There are plenty of other examples of much lower-profile white privilege. All this vitriol about people invoking the 1% is a strawman as that wasn't what the person who mentioned the Bush thing was getting at.

    15. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 03:55 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Its funny after 3 pages no one brought up Asians needing AA. But of course blacks, Mexicans, and islanders need AA
      Why would they need it? They don't face the sort of discrimination blacks do.

    16. Member BmwFanBoy's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:01 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Why would they need it? They don't face the sort of discrimination blacks do.
      Right.... Americans with our pointy white hoods didn't care about Asians L O ef'n L

    17. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:05 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Right.... Americans with our pointy white hoods didn't care about Asians L O ef'n L
      That isn't the test for whether a group should benefit from AA. Do you seriously think that it is?

    18. Moderator rich!'s Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:08 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      I forgot about eastern Indians don't need AA neither. All covered now proceed with this thread.
      i lost out on a job opportunity for not being Indian...

      i need AA
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    19. 10-10-2012 04:10 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by rich! View Post
      i need AA
      That is different AA than we are talking about.

    20. 10-10-2012 04:10 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      You're failing to consider that your white grandparents, parents and, likely, self have been given preferential treatment with respect to getting and keeping those jobs and the opportunities that were available to them strictly because of their race.

      Your present success is built on the foundation laid by your grandparents and parents. You think that, back in their days, a black person had exactly the same fair shake to become truck drivers or teachers or diesel mechanics, to get student loans or attend schools? If yes, your position is internally consistent but ignores reality. If no, then those are the very advantages you deny benefitting from.
      My great grandparents were pushed around by the Russians, then the Nazi's, then the Russians again. My grandparents were pushed around by the commis. My parents were too until their late 20s. Then they came to the US, and didn't speak any English. None of the people I've mentioned have even seen a black person until we came here. Why am I put into this group, where people I assumed I got to where I am because my ancestors f-cked someone over? If anything, Poles are the ones that have been getting f-cked for the past 300 years in Europe.

      While I agree that racism is, and probably still is, holding black people back, I don't see why I should be the one to pay for it. I'm not racist. My family never benefited off of it. Neither have I. Why do I have to deal with the cost of it?
      Last edited by PolskiHetzen; 10-10-2012 at 04:14 PM.

    21. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:13 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by PolskiHetzen View Post
      My great grandparents were pushed around by the Russians, then the Nazi's, then the Russians again. My grandparents were pushed around by the commis. My parents were too until their late 20s. Then they came to the US, and didn't speak any English. None of the people I've mentioned have even seen a black person until we came here. Why am I put into this group, where people I assumed I got to where I am because my ancestors f-cked someone over? If anything, Poles are the ones that have been getting f-cked for the past 300 years in Europe.
      Because it makes even less sense to put you in the other group. Why would the US need to institute a policy to right the wrongs of the Russians, Nazis, Commies, etc.?

    22. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:18 PM #92
      My wife works as an architect. Here in Texas, believe it or not, we have to deal with HUB (Historically Underutilized Businesses) requirements not present in a lot of other states. As a female, she qualifies as a HUB. So would a firm owned by a black male. Both compete for the same job. All other things being equal, who wins the contract?

      Are white women less oppressed than black men? Please support your answer.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    23. 10-10-2012 04:19 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Because it makes even less sense to put you in the other group. Why would the US need to institute a policy to right the wrongs of the Russians, Nazis, Commies, etc.?
      I don't want anyone to right the wrongs. No one has wronged me as far as I'm concerned. My grand parents and parents might feel otherwise, but I wasn't there. My parents gtfo because it sucked, and I'm glad they did.

      But when I see a Russian or a German person, my mind doesn't click over and think that they owe me something. They weren't there. Neither was I. They're not hauling me off to die some where, so they're cool with me. If I saw a guy who worked a concentration camp, I might feel otherwise.

      I guess the problem here is you don't know who is racist. But if we're talking benefiting from slavery/racism in this country, then there is no way anyone in my family is in that group yet we're treated as if we were.

    24. 10-10-2012 04:20 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      My wife works as an architect. Here in Texas, believe it or not, we have to deal with HUB (Historically Underutilized Businesses) requirements not present in a lot of other states. As a female, she qualifies as a HUB. So would a firm owned by a black male. Both compete for the same job. All other things being equal, who wins the contract?

      Are white women less oppressed than black men? Please support your answer.
      women are only oppressed if they're ugly

    25. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:21 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by PolskiHetzen View Post
      women are only oppressed if they're ugly
      I bet this is the most honest answer I get.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    26. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:22 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      My wife works as an architect. Here in Texas, believe it or not, she has to deal with HUB (Historically Underutilized Businesses) requirements not present in a lot of other states. As a female, she qualifies as a HUB. So would a firm owned by a black male. Both compete for the same job. All other things being equal, who wins the contract?

      Are white women less oppressed than black men? Please support your answer.
      I have no idea how "HUB" works. If it's anything like AA, qualifications carry the day, and the incentives provided to go for a disadvantaged candidate come into play for ties and near-ties.

      Who cares which group is more or less historically and currently oppressed? You seem to think that such a program should isolate to the penny the exact impact that these things have had on each group or each individual, and then give them a benefit worth only exactly that much. It's impossible to value the disadvantages (or advantages) of this sort so precisely.

    27. Banned Fritz27's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:23 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      My wife works as an architect. Here in Texas, believe it or not, we have to deal with HUB (Historically Underutilized Businesses) requirements not present in a lot of other states. As a female, she qualifies as a HUB. So would a firm owned by a black male. Both compete for the same job. All other things being equal, who wins the contract?

      Are white women less oppressed than black men? Please support your answer.
      Jim Crow.

      I don't remember a female equivalent to Emmett Till.

      Then again, what about the oppression black woman faced compared to black men or white women?

      I will say the most fascinating thing I learned in legal history was that when women were seeking the right to vote, there were two main gripes by women.

      1. They didn't want black women to vote
      2. They were like, "hey, if we let stupid immigrants from Southern Europe vote and we let black men vote, WTF, how come us intelligent, beautiful white women can't vote?"

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      10-10-2012 04:24 PM #98
      Look, before this thread gets locked I don't have skin in this thread because I was born in Eastern Europe.

      The AA was drafted and well written to cover pretty much anyone that wasn't white. Keep in mind it was written in a dark time in America for Blacks and Mexicans because they were the majority of the minority.

      Others that immigrated to the States didn't need AA because family's pushed and taught kids the value of education. Thus Asians, Dot Indians, and other skin or facial feature people never or have a need for AA because there education is on par or better then there peers.

      AA was good and it did its purpose but now it's holding students with good grades and test scores back across the board..

    29. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:26 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by PolskiHetzen View Post
      I guess the problem here is you don't know who is racist. But if we're talking benefiting from slavery/racism in this country, then there is no way anyone in my family is in that group yet we're treated as if we were.
      You're only treated as if you benefitted from slavery if you view AA as a punishment for you. It isn't. Your argument is akin to saying "I don't have kids in school, why should I be punished with taxes that pay for schools?"

      The reality is that alleviating historical and present-day disadvantages faced by certain classes of people is a program that benefits everyone, just like you paying for other peoples' kids' educations.

    30. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:27 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      It's impossible to value the disadvantages (or advantages) of this sort so precisely.

      EXACTLY my problem with it. Legislating arbitrary notions of fairness without any real measure of success or well defined goals is foolish.
      Rest easy, Bart.

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      10-10-2012 04:28 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Look, before this thread gets locked I don't have skin in this thread because I was born in Eastern Europe.

      The AA was drafted and well written to cover pretty much anyone that wasn't white. Keep in mind it was written in a dark time in America for Blacks and Mexicans because they were the majority of the minority.

      Others that immigrated to the States didn't need AA because family's pushed and taught kids the value of education. Thus Asians, Dot Indians, and other skin or facial feature people never or have a need for AA because there education is on par or better then there peers.

      AA was good and it did its purpose but now it's holding students with good grades and test scores back across the board..
      It's not that black people don't value education, which is what you seem to be inferring. The problem is that society as a whole undermined the ability for black children to get an education on par with white people until the 1970s.

      Think about that. The color TV was popular before minorities were allowed to go to schools with white kids in nice neighborhoods without protest.

    32. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:28 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Others that immigrated to the States didn't need AA because family's pushed and taught kids the value of education. Thus Asians, Dot Indians, and other skin or facial feature people never or have a need for AA because there education is on par or better then there peers.
      You answered your own question. That's why AA doesn't apply to them, nor should it. Can you say the same thing about the groups that AA does apply to?

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      10-10-2012 04:32 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      It's not that black people don't value education, which is what you seem to be inferring. The problem is that society as a whole undermined the ability for black children to get an education on par with white people until the 1970s.
      Yeah, it was separate...but it was equal
      All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

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      10-10-2012 04:33 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I don't remember a female equivalent to Emmett Till.
      I guess that you don't watch a lot of Lifetime.

      The 15th Amendment: 1870

      The 19th Amendment: 1920

      Half a century's difference there. Look, I'm not really trying to draw a direct comparison about who had it worse. I think an argument can be made either way. I'm just going back to my point that without more clearly set goals w/re to things like AA and the ERA, these fights are going to fester.
      Rest easy, Bart.

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      10-10-2012 04:33 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      You answered your own question. That's why AA doesn't apply to them, nor should it. Can you say the same thing about the groups that AA does apply to?
      Love how you use the word "Groups" you mean the hacks who don't have the test scores and grades?

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