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    Thread: Supreme Court to rule on affirmative action case.

    1. Member Robstr's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:36 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I guess that you don't watch a lot of Lifetime.

      The 15th Amendment: 1870

      The 19th Amendment: 1920

      Half a century's difference there.
      Jim Crow 1876 to 1965. What the **** ever.
      All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

    2. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:37 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      EXACTLY my problem with it. Legislating arbitrary notions of fairness without any real measure of success or well defined goals is foolish.
      I would say that doing nothing because you can't measure out just how much "fairness" each individual should get, to the penny, is even more foolish.

      The problem of people being disadvantaged by reason of race alone is a serious problem, and a self-perpetuating problem. It isn't going to go away by itself. AA is one attempt to alleviate it by trying to break the cycle. I'm less interested in counting pennies spent fixing the problem than I am about finding practical solutions that help to create a society that provides equal opportunity for all.

    3. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:40 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Love how you use the word "Groups" you mean the hacks who don't have the test scores and grades?
      Well, the archetypal example provided in this thread is a black guy who scored 10% lower than a white guy. If you think that small a variation in scores separates a successful captain of industry from a "hack," I don't know what to tell you.

      Assuming that's what they are, then the question for me is, why are they "hacks who don't have the test scores and grades?" The answer is likely to be because of the disadvantages they face because of race.

    4. Banned Chris Stack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:42 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      I would say that doing nothing because you can't measure out just how much "fairness" each individual should get, to the penny, is even more foolish.

      The problem of people being disadvantaged by reason of race alone is a serious problem, and a self-perpetuating problem. It isn't going to go away by itself. AA is one attempt to alleviate it by trying to break the cycle. I'm less interested in counting pennies spent fixing the problem than I am about finding practical solutions that help to create a society that provides equal opportunity for all.
      Tell me you don't see the irony in stating you want an "equal opportunity for all" by holding some back. Tell me you don't.

    5. Member BmwFanBoy's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:44 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      It's not that black people don't value education, which is what you seem to be inferring. The problem is that society as a whole undermined the ability for black children to get an education on par with white people until the 1970s.

      Think about that. The color TV was popular before minorities were allowed to go to schools with white kids in nice neighborhoods without protest.
      No. Either I mistyped or a misunderstanding. And also re read my last statement. AA was meant for a fair shot in the higher education at a time some students had the grades and test scores but were turned down. Now it's hurting ALL students.

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      10-10-2012 04:48 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I guess that you don't watch a lot of Lifetime.

      The 15th Amendment: 1870

      The 19th Amendment: 1920

      Half a century's difference there. Look, I'm not really trying to draw a direct comparison about who had it worse. I think an argument can be made either way. I'm just going back to my point that without more clearly set goals w/re to things like AA and the ERA, these fights are going to fester.
      I like that you ignored the Jim Crow part.

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      10-10-2012 04:51 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      Or the Jews.
      came for this.

      leaving faklempt.
      Larry

      Demokratikally Elekted Minister of Shekels of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan

    8. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:54 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by Robstr View Post
      Jim Crow 1876 to 1965. What the **** ever.
      Okay, so the measure is a date range? Jim Crow has now been off the books for nearly half a century. Problem solved! No more systemic oppression, right?

      Sorry, just because they never put a name to discrimination against women doesn't mean that it didn't exist.

      Quote Originally Posted by jderpack
      The problem of people being disadvantaged by reason of race alone is a serious problem, and a self-perpetuating problem. It isn't going to go away by itself. AA is one attempt to alleviate it by trying to break the cycle. I'm less interested in counting pennies spent fixing the problem than I am about finding practical solutions that help to create a society that provides equal opportunity for all.
      First of all, your "counting pennies" allusion is a poor one. It implies that we're only arguing over minutia which is NOT the case. We're actually discussing millions and millions of dollars over the course of decades now.

      Secondly, you're arguing from an assumption that our social perceptions are in agreement. That, to steal a phrase, "the science is settled" regarding an existing problem. I do NOT accept your notion that there still exists a systemic and self-perpetuating form of discrimination against blacks.

      Do racists still exist? Yep! On both sides of the equation by my experience. Is that the prevailing culprit for their current lower standard of living? I'm not convinced and I think a lot of folks agree with me. That's why it's important to setting some benchmarks and some more concrete goals around this issue.

      It's really hard to work toward something when you don't really know what it is you're supposed to be working toward.
      Last edited by Seabird; 10-10-2012 at 04:58 PM.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    9. 10-10-2012 04:54 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      You're only treated as if you benefitted from slavery if you view AA as a punishment for you. It isn't. Your argument is akin to saying "I don't have kids in school, why should I be punished with taxes that pay for schools?"

      The reality is that alleviating historical and present-day disadvantages faced by certain classes of people is a program that benefits everyone, just like you paying for other peoples' kids' educations.
      I see the potential good. But when its said "well your parents got and kept jobs because they were white and that's why you're better off now" in response to a previous post, then I'm not in that group.

      Something has to be done, but not at my cost. Call me selfish, but I didn't do anything wrong, neither did my family and I'm not racist. I don't like the fact that I have or might have to at one point in time deal with the consequences for the f-ck ups of others. I don't like being bunched into the group of people who benefited from slavery or racism.

    10. Member BmwFanBoy's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:55 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      Well, the archetypal example provided in this thread is a black guy who scored 10% lower than a white guy. If you think that small a variation in scores separates a successful captain of industry from a "hack," I don't know what to tell you.

      Assuming that's what they are, then the question for me is, why are they "hacks who don't have the test scores and grades?" The answer is likely to be because of the disadvantages they face because of race.
      Try to stay on point for the thread. This is about education (college) and not about the work place. The person who has the higher grades and test scores should be right at the front of line. The fair part is some studied harder and it reflected. People who test lower will have to try harder or attend a school that will fit there needs. AA had a purpose at one time.

    11. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:57 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      I like that you ignored the Jim Crow part.
      Next time I sprain my ankle and I have to lean on a crutch, I'm going to write Jim Crowe up the side in magic marker. If you weren't born before 1965, then give it a rest already.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    12. Member BmwFanBoy's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 04:58 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      Okay, so the measure is a date range? Jim Crow has now been off the books for nearly half a century. Problem solved! No more systemic oppression, right?

      Sorry, just because they never put a name to discrimination against women doesn't mean that it didn't exist.



      First of all, your "counting pennies" allusion is a poor one. It implies that we're only arguing over minutia which is NOT the case. We're actually discussing millions and millions of dollars over the course of decades now.

      Secondly, you're arguing from an assumption that our social perceptions are in agreement. That, to steal a phrase, "the science is settled" regarding an existing problem. I do NOT accept your notion that there still exists a systemic and self-perpetuating form of discrimination against blacks.

      Do racists still exist? Yep! On both sides of the equation by my experience. Is that the prevailing culprit for their current lower standard of living? I'm not convinced and I think a lot of folks agree with me. That's why it's important to being setting some benchmarks and some more concrete goals around this issue.

      It's really hard to work toward something when you don't really know what it is you're supposed to be working toward.
      / thread, killed it, no murdered it!

      BTW did you slam whatever typing device down and did a dance? Epic post

    13. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:03 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stack View Post
      Tell me you don't see the irony in stating you want an "equal opportunity for all" by holding some back. Tell me you don't.
      There's nothing ironic about that at all. Leveling out the opportunities available to all under the circumstances entails reducing the opportunities available to some. Unless you can think of some way to leave everyone's opportunities fully intact while simultaneously opening all those doors to disadvantaged groups.

    14. Member Robstr's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:05 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      Okay, so the measure is a date range? Jim Crow has now been off the books for nearly half a century. Problem solved! No more systemic oppression, right?

      Sorry, just because they never put a name to discrimination against women doesn't mean that it didn't exist.
      You're the one that started bringing up dates.
      I completely agree that women face serious discrimination issues, even today. It's fairly pervasive in engineering.
      All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

    15. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:08 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      First of all, your "counting pennies" allusion is a poor one. It implies that we're only arguing over minutia which is NOT the case. We're actually discussing millions and millions of dollars over the course of decades now.

      Secondly, you're arguing from an assumption that our social perceptions are in agreement. That, to steal a phrase, "the science is settled" regarding an existing problem. I do NOT accept your notion that there still exists a systemic and self-perpetuating form of discrimination against blacks.
      Millions of dollars over the course of decades is "pennies." It's a piddling amount of money. I wouldn't be opposed to being more efficient with that money, but I would be opposed with increasing the costs of such programs a hundred-fold to ensure that no one gets one cent more than the amount they've been disadvantaged by.

      The idea that, because these things are hard to value precisely, we should therefore do nothing is nonsense. It's the same thing as saying "we don't know by exactly how much man is responsible for global warming; therefore, we shouldn't do anything." There's a problem, we know how to fix it.

      As for your disagreement with respect to whether blacks are disadvantaged: what do you propose is the reason for their being economically and socially disadvantaged if not the racism they suffered in the past and the consequences of that racism today?

    16. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:09 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Robstr View Post
      You're the one that started bringing up dates.
      I completely agree that women face serious discrimination issues, even today. It's fairly pervasive in engineering.
      Fair enough. I was just trying to make a single illustration showing that in some respects, black men outpaced women in the equal rights movement. My overall point remains though; it's impossible to really compare the two, yet sometimes these fairness laws force us to do just that.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    17. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:11 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by PolskiHetzen View Post
      Something has to be done, but not at my cost. Call me selfish, but I didn't have any kids, neither did my family and I'm not a breeder. I don't like the fact that I have or might have to at one point in time pay for the consequences of other people f***ing. I don't like being bunched into the group of people who had children and need them educated.
      I've replaced the things you said with analogous complaints respecting education of other peoples' kids.

      Societal problems are paid for by society, not always by the exact people who caused them. This is a societal problem.

    18. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:15 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by BmwFanBoy View Post
      Try to stay on point for the thread. This is about education (college) and not about the work place. The person who has the higher grades and test scores should be right at the front of line. The fair part is some studied harder and it reflected. People who test lower will have to try harder or attend a school that will fit there needs. AA had a purpose at one time.
      Higher education is also an opportunity, that opens doors to better employment. The two go hand-in-hand. If society's (past) discrimination causes blacks to be unable to make the grade despite their best efforts, then we deny them higher education (and thereby, better jobs), their kids will have the same problem because they'll recognize that it doesn't matter how hard they work. It's self-perpetuating.

      AA is designed to break the cycle. Let their best efforts get them the opportunities that higher education present. The children of those now contributing members to society will recognize that hard work pays off and do the same.

      I don't see the advantage of the former set of circumstances, which you seem to be advocating. I do see the potential advantages of the latter.

    19. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:16 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      The idea that, because these things are hard to value precisely, we should therefore do nothing is nonsense. It's the same thing as saying "we don't know by exactly how much man is responsible for global warming; therefore, we shouldn't do anything." There's a problem, we know how to fix it.
      This is the second time you've said this in reply to me. Where did I say that we should do nothing? Please point that out for me because I must have blacked out (oops, no pun intended) and forgotten that I typed it.

      As for your disagreement with respect to whether blacks are disadvantaged: what do you propose is the reason for their being economically and socially disadvantaged if not the racism they suffered in the past and the consequences of that racism today?
      A cultural malaise perpetuated by an entitlement mentality in turn fueled by poorly drafted anti-discrimination laws and government handouts.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    20. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:24 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      This is the second time you've said this in reply to me. Where did I say that we should do nothing? Please point that out for me because I must have blacked out (oops, no pun intended) and forgotten that I typed it.
      It was an assumption on my part. My apologies.

      What program that would be more effective than AA are you proposing?

      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      A cultural malaise perpetuated by an entitlement mentality in turn fueled by poorly drafted anti-discrimination laws and government handouts.
      I disagree that this is the cause. There have been endless studies showing that blacks still stand at a disadvantage for reasons out of their own control. I remember one a while ago wherein two identical candidates on paper, one with a black name and one without, were treated differently by potential employers. I think this sort of discrimination, coupled with the much lower starting point of many blacks as a result of historical inequalities, is a much larger cause.

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      10-10-2012 05:30 PM #126
      Jader are you Pres Obama hiding in OT killing time?

    22. Member Seabird's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 05:45 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      It was an assumption on my part. My apologies.

      What program that would be more effective than AA are you proposing?
      Thank you. No program in particular that I can find within government. However, in the private industry, EVERY successful project has a beginning and an end in mind with well defined benchmarks and goals.


      I disagree that this is the cause. There have been endless studies showing that blacks still stand at a disadvantage for reasons out of their own control. I remember one a while ago wherein two identical candidates on paper, one with a black name and one without, were treated differently by potential employers. I think this sort of discrimination, coupled with the much lower starting point of many blacks as a result of historical inequalities, is a much larger cause.

      I am familiar with this type of study. They're rather common. I had a friend who wrote her dissertation on the subject when she got her Masters in Social Work several years ago. Her conclusion was that the name really was the problem - not the person.

      While a black candidate with a non-WASPY sounding name might be passed over for someone who sounds more white, this isn't a new phenomenon. American history is rife with examples of immigrants changing their names in an effort to assimilate.

      My daughter's middle name is Sussel. I chose that in order to honor my former father-in-law who didn't have any sons of his own to carry on the family name (Sussman). His parents were Eastern European Jewish immigrants fleeing the holocaust. When they got here, they changed their names from Sussel to Sussman.

      Since the Afro-American militancy movements of the 60s and 70s, blacks in this country began to adopt strange qausi-African sounding names in an effort to gain some sense of cultural identity. I'd offer that those names indicate, in a lot of mainstream-minded folks, an anti-establishment identity. Not just black, but Huey Long Black Panther black.

      Is it fair? No, probably not. I'd offer the fix is a whole lot easier than throwing arbitrary laws at it. Give the kids a normal name.

      But they won't. And that's where part of the internal problem is that I described above. As a parent, I'm going to do whatever I can to give my kids the best advantages possible in life. If I read somewhere that boys named John are more likely to become millionaires before they're 30 than any other name, guess what I'm going to name my son.

      Tell someone that they're a victim and that they deserve something extra enough, pretty soon they're going to believe you. And then they become over-reliant on it. And suddenly, you're not really doing them any favors anymore.
      Last edited by Seabird; 10-10-2012 at 05:48 PM.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    23. 10-10-2012 06:05 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      Let me know when white people go through 400 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow.

      Stop trying to stir up ****, you loser.

      I always hate this argument because it punishes me and rewards a minority based on the actions of people in power generations before I was born. Yea, sh*t sucked and some people caught a bad break at one point or another but I can assure you that weighting one person's application against the other with consideration to race IS RACISM.

      The IDEAL of the program is corrupted by the REALITY of the program and its' effects on society. Biasing against historical tradition does nothing to support the end goal of "equality.

    24. Member Jader Pack's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 06:22 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      Thank you. No program in particular that I can find within government. However, in the private industry, EVERY successful project has a beginning and an end in mind with well defined benchmarks and goals.
      So... until we find the 100% perfect solution, what should we do? My assumption was that you advocate doing nothing in the absence of such a solution. You tell me that assumption was wrong.

      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      Tell someone that they're a victim and that they deserve something extra enough, pretty soon they're going to believe you. And then they become over-reliant on it. And suddenly, you're not really doing them any favors anymore.
      The flip side of that coin is: tell a victim that they're not a victim and everything's fine when it isn't doesn't make it true. The propensity that certain racial groups in both our countries have to be unsuccessful is a societal problem that needs to be fixed.

    25. 10-10-2012 06:41 PM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by 20DYNAMITE07 View Post
      Yes... I understand that is what you think AA is. What I have said is that AA is NOT a form of reparations as you keep insisting it is, but rather it was an economic initiative designed to break the cycle of poverty by insuring qualified individuals get equal access and equal opportunity to contribute.
      AA, as practiced, is neither an economic issue nor reparations, but is rather a legal construct. As I've pointed out previously, it's intentions may have been noble, but it's practice has been markedly less so.

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      10-10-2012 06:51 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by Jader Pack View Post
      So... until we find the 100% perfect solution, what should we do? My assumption was that you advocate doing nothing in the absence of such a solution. You tell me that assumption was wrong.
      A lot that needed to be done has been done. Specific legislation that grants equal rights and makes discrimination illegal. It's time to start rolling the rest of it back. Ween them from the societal tit, so to speak. That is NOT the same as doing nothing.

      What we've been doing isn't working in terms of entitlements and preferences and have become counter-productive.

      I think that the time, treasure and talent that goes into telling blacks what a raw deal they've had should be redirected toward showing them how to adopt a non-victim hood mentality and how to assimilate successfully into a productive society. Every other cultural class has been able to work its way out of the ghetto. The Jews, the Irish, the Italians, the Asians, and now the Latinos and Hispanics are finally making inroads as they see the value of assimilation.

      The blacks won't see success as a people as long as they're held within the inner city reservations through the use entitlement programs and political propaganda. It has created a model of dependency upon the government. An official conceit that they're just not good enough on their own.

      The propensity that certain racial groups in both our countries have to be unsuccessful is a societal problem that needs to be fixed.
      There are elements of this, I'll allow, but I won't call it a propensity. I think we've come a long way socially since Jim Crowe.
      Last edited by Seabird; 10-10-2012 at 07:22 PM.
      Rest easy, Bart.

    27. 10-10-2012 07:20 PM #132
      AA is bull****.

      http://youtu.be/hWS_MDJSiEE
      Last edited by Nicefeet; 10-10-2012 at 07:23 PM.

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      10-10-2012 07:29 PM #133
      Finally got home and watched some highlights of this case on Fox News and all I can say is wow. A few of the justices had some remarks pertaining to the case that could alter AA in a epic way.

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      10-10-2012 08:31 PM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      A lot that needed to be done has been done. Specific legislation that grants equal rights and makes discrimination illegal. It's time to start rolling the rest of it back. Ween them from the societal tit, so to speak. That is NOT the same as doing nothing.

      What we've been doing isn't working in terms of entitlements and preferences and have become counter-productive.

      I think that the time, treasure and talent that goes into telling blacks what a raw deal they've had should be redirected toward showing them how to adopt a non-victim hood mentality and how to assimilate successfully into a productive society. Every other cultural class has been able to work its way out of the ghetto. The Jews, the Irish, the Italians, the Asians, and now the Latinos and Hispanics are finally making inroads as they see the value of assimilation.

      The blacks won't see success as a people as long as they're held within the inner city reservations through the use entitlement programs and political propaganda. It has created a model of dependency upon the government. An official conceit that they're just not good enough on their own.


      There are elements of this, I'll allow, but I won't call it a propensity. I think we've come a long way socially since Jim Crowe.
      You make it seem like people want to be poor and live in the ghetto.

      Anyway, the biggest issue is and will continue to be education. Until you can get people in the hood to value an education everything will be for naught. The problem is that you've got generations upon generations of people that scraped by without an education so they don't see the value in one. To them, working at Wendy's is a pretty great achievement and staying out of prison is essentially unheard of.

      Making the push to value education is what will really change everything.

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      10-10-2012 08:41 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      You make it seem like people want to be poor and live in the ghetto.

      Anyway, the biggest issue is and will continue to be education. Until you can get people in the hood to value an education everything will be for naught. The problem is that you've got generations upon generations of people that scraped by without an education so they don't see the value in one. To them, working at Wendy's is a pretty great achievement and staying out of prison is essentially unheard of.

      Making the push to value education is what will really change everything.
      The problem is the IQ disparity between races, it will never go away. AA forces employers to hire the less qualified worker if they are of a certain race (non-white) which is funny considering whites will soon be the minority, the fact is AA is in place not because of discrimination but because blacks for example are less likely as a whole to be as qualified for the position as whites. Of course this is "racist" and not pc but its true and most people see this as such whether they admit it or not.

    31. Banned Fritz27's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 08:47 PM #136
      Oh lovely and here comes 100% Hitlerjugend.

    32. Senior Member FlashRedGLS1.8T's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 08:49 PM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by 100% Euro View Post
      The problem is the IQ disparity between races, it will never go away. AA forces employers to hire the less qualified worker if they are of a certain race (non-white) which is funny considering whites will soon be the minority, the fact is AA is in place not because of discrimination but because blacks for example are less likely as a whole to be as qualified for the position as whites. Of course this is "racist" and not pc but its true and most people see this as such whether they admit it or not.
      Hey guys, who the f*** left the door open?

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      10-10-2012 08:52 PM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by Fritz27 View Post
      Oh lovely and here comes 100% Hitlerjugend.
      How has Mr white supremacist not been banned yet?


      I'm pretty sure we had this conversation about Affirmative Action last year.
      Quote Originally Posted by winstonsmith84 View Post
      Tax? I don't mind paying state sales tax. Every time a see a pothole, a school that is falling down or a canceled essential state program, I remind myself why.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      535 members of congress plus 1 pres screwing us all the time...that's dirty pirate hooker level gang rape.

    34. Banned 100% Euro's Avatar
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      10-10-2012 09:11 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by Egilbe View Post
      How has Mr white supremacist not been banned yet?


      I'm pretty sure we had this conversation about Affirmative Action last year.
      Explain how opposing view points get someone banned? Not very democratic of you. I think your talking about the eugenics thread where everyone was being very aggressive and hateful towards me, yet I remained calm and just stated my view. It's odd how blissful ignorance but truly be.
      Last edited by 100% Euro; 10-10-2012 at 09:13 PM.

    35. 10-10-2012 09:15 PM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by FlashRedGLS1.8T View Post
      I can't be sure, but I think I got my job because I wasn't black or hispanic.

      People have lost out on jobs or admittance into schools because they weren't a minority.
      But I'm sure the number of people that assume they lost out to a minority is quite a bit higher than the number of people that actually lost due to not being a minority.
      Seriously. Being black never helped me get a job.

      Looks to me like she was discriminated against for being a Ginger.

      I'm really just here for the pancakes.
      I'm Sorry Hachi... I love you.

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