Supreme Court to rule on affirmative action case.

[Fritz27]

I dot see a problem with that at this point in the game but it would've been worthless in the 60s/70s IMO.

I say that because poor whites and poor blacks had totally disparate lives during that time period. Sure, whites from Appalachia would add to diversity but ultimately I think it's too difficult to quantify for something like an application for a job at the post office.

[Chris Stack]

I dot see a problem with that at this point in the game but it would've been worthless in the 60s/70s IMO.

And I'm not going to tell you AA was unnecessary in the 60s and 70s, when you had the people who actually grew up under segregation and Jim Crow trying to get ahead. Because it absolutely was. But I think today poverty is far more of a handicap than race.

[Jader Pack]

To bring this back to AA, riddle me this:

What if we had AA for income instead of race? What if you took, say, the average of the last five year's of the person who claimed you as a dependent's income and said if it was <$30k, you get 10 points, $30k-60k you get 5 points, and 60k+ you get zero points (or whatever, don't get caught up in the numbers used.)

That, to me, gives a) real diversity in terms of experience, not skin color, and B) means you are helping people who actually need help, instead of giving some black kid from the nice 'burbs an unnecessary leg up over some honky from the back woods.

I like that.

[Slapoquidik]

What I don't get is, why you and he keep implying that there's a causal relationship between race and intelligence.

You don't get it, because I have never implied that there is a causal relationship between race and intelligence. You have repeatedly made that implication and attributed it to me.

If you're arguing that there's a correlation, that is completely undisputed.

Except that 20Dyna disputed that back in post 170. That's what we were talking about, weak evidence of a correlation between race and average IQ scores. The idea that race causes IQ wasn't in the Bell Curve or any of my posts. I don't even see it clearly expressed in 100%Euro's posts. The closest he comes is post 202, and even that requires an uncharitable reading.

I'll ask you both again: are you saying that race causes the disparity between the average IQ of various races?

No. Genetics, not race. I'm not sure you understand the difference. Repeatedly 100%Euro cited "genetics" as a cause, and you appear to have read "race" instead.

If not, what's your point?

The point isn't, "Ah ha! Since no one has cited evidence in support of B, A must be true!" The point is, "Murrey, Hernstein, and (kind of) Eric Holder are right, we shouldn't be cowards who fear doing studies that could provide us with strong evidence that B is true, just because those same studies might provide us with stronger evidence that A is true."

A=Inequality among races, including average IQs.
B=Equality among races, including average IQs.

Both A and B are about correlation not causation.

20Dyna, Fritz, and you have been the ones introducing or dwelling upon "causal link between race and IQ" in this thread. I still have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

[Slapoquidik]

169, 189, 200 (edit: and 241).

After I checked the first one, and found that you had once again read something into someone's post that simply isn't there, I stopped bothering.

[westsideseal]

To bring this back to AA, riddle me this:

What if we had AA for income instead of race? What if you took, say, the average of the last five year's of the person who claimed you as a dependent's income and said if it was <$30k, you get 10 points, $30k-60k you get 5 points, and 60k+ you get zero points (or whatever, don't get caught up in the numbers used.)

That, to me, gives a) real diversity in terms of experience, not skin color, and B) means you are helping people who actually need help, instead of giving some black kid from the nice 'burbs an unnecessary leg up over some honky from the back woods.

I like it. I agree that poverty is the real handicap for most people, especially these days. A rich black kid in a well educated area is infinitely better off in the present than a poor white kid in a poorly educated area. Unfortunately, poverty disproportionately affects minorities, so just giving minorities the benefit is simpler, but less fair overall.

[20DYNAMITE07]

Except that 20Dyna disputed that back in post 170. That's what we were talking about, weak evidence of a correlation between race and average IQ scores. The idea that race causes IQ wasn't in the Bell Curve or any of my posts. I don't even see it clearly expressed in 100%Euro's posts. The closest he comes is post 202, and even that requires an uncharitable reading.

20Dyna, Fritz, and you have been the ones introducing or dwelling upon "causal link between race and IQ" in this thread. I still have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

I'm sorry if I was not clear before... I wasn't disputing the correlatoin between race and IQ distribution... I was trying to say that that I do not believe that race is the cause of the disparity. That's why I've been harping on correlation and causation. That's all. My language wasn't clear in those posts you referenced, so sorry about that.

[roadtripper]

what say we just out the elephant in the room:

Low Intelligence Linked to Conservatism & Racism (30-Jan-12)

[Jader Pack]

No. Genetics, not race. I'm not sure you understand the difference. Repeatedly 100%Euro cited "genetics" as a cause, and you appear to have read "race" instead.

Is this a thread about whether blondes or brunettes are smarter, or a thread about the supposed differences between races? 100% is referring to "race" when he says genetics.

A=Inequality among races, including average IQs.
B=Equality among races, including average IQs.

Both A and B are about correlation not causation.

20Dyna, Fritz, and you have been the ones introducing or dwelling upon "causal link between race and IQ" in this thread. I still have no idea why you keep bringing it up.

Again, that there is a correlation between race and intelligence is not a novel observation, nor is it controversial. If that's your only point, then we agree. As I reject that the correlation in question is caused by race (or "genetics"), it must be caused by something else. That is the nature of my support for AA: an attempt to break the cycle of causes for the intelligence disparity between races.

[roadtripper]

you've argued yourself into a vacuum there. breath deep, now.

[Fritz27]

Awesome rebuttal, bro.

[Slapoquidik]

I'm sorry if I was not clear before... I wasn't disputing the correlatoin between race and IQ distribution... I was trying to say that that I do not believe that race is the cause of the disparity. That's why I've been harping on correlation and causation. That's all. My language wasn't clear in those posts you referenced, so sorry about that.

No problem. I think the misreading was as much on my side as any lack of clarity on your side. The fuss when the Bell Curve came out was over those studies it mentioned that correlated race and average IQ scores. I'm surprised to hear that correlation accepted blithly these days, since it caused so much hysterics then. I shouldn't have presumed that's what you were talking about. The Bell Curve did not posit that race was the cause of that disparity; perhaps this is another popular misconception about it.

[Slapoquidik]

... 100% is referring to "race" when he says genetics.

No, you're just reading things in to other people's posts again. I do that by mistake sometimes too, but you really seem to make a habit of it.

... As I reject that the correlation in question is caused by race (or "genetics"), it must be caused by something else.

If you reject the heritability of IQ, you really should read the Bell Curve instead of some article or summary of it.

[100% Euro]

I am going to make my position clear. The cause of the B/W IQ disparity is genes. It isn't the race that causes disparity but the genetics that go along with it that determine intellect. Is it in the pigmentation? No that's just ridiculous. I am not a geneticist and don't claim to be, my girlfriend is though as it so happens. I have a basic understanding and have done allot of research I have a massive interest and knowledge of history and this has come up many times in my studies. I would imagine I am in more of a position to debate this than most others chiming in. I do not claim that its color that determines the IQ of the individual. But the genetics of a white/black/asian are different and in those differences lies different determining factors for intellect. I hope this will clear it up. I do not agree that environmental impact is the reason behind the IQ differences and if anyone does please tell me why. You cant use the argument that its western biased because Asians score higher than anyone.

[Egilbe]

I am going to make my position clear. The cause of the B/W IQ disparity is genes. It isn't the race that causes disparity but the genetics that go along with it that determine intellect. Is it in the pigmentation? No that's just ridiculous. I am not a geneticist and don't claim to be, my girlfriend is though as it so happens. I have a basic understanding and have done allot of research I have a massive interest and knowledge of history and this has come up many times in my studies. I would imagine I am in more of a position to debate this than most others chiming in. I do not claim that its color that determines the IQ of the individual. But the genetics of a white/black/asian are different and in those differences lies different determining factors for intellect. I hope this will clear it up. I do not agree that environmental impact is the reason behind the IQ differences and if anyone does please tell me why. You cant use the argument that its western biased because Asians score higher than anyone.

Perfectly. Black people are dumber and Asians are smarter. Nothing stereotypically racist about that at all

[roadtripper]

egilbe, you're being daft and silly and you should feel bad and go to your room.

seriously guys, keep "winning" arguments with yourselves by pretending your opponent is saying something different than they actually are.

anyone who rejects the truth that intelligence is hereditary should be REALLY mad at their parents for making them so stump-humping stupid.

[100% Euro]

Perfectly. Black people are dumber and Asians are smarter. Nothing stereotypically racist about that at all

There is nothing racist about it, I'm not spreading or inciting hatred, nor do I condone it. I am just stating what is true. I'm sorry if it offends you but frankly if you or anyone else offended that is your issue not mine. You are not arguing successfully for your side because there is no successful way to argue it. Yeah it sucks but for the most part the world and nothing in it is equal or fair. You are only limiting your own knowledge and contributing to ignorance of facts by not acknowledging the truth.

egilbe, you're being daft and silly and you should feel bad and go to your room.

seriously guys, keep "winning" arguments with yourselves by pretending your opponent is saying something different than they actually are.

anyone who rejects the truth that intelligence is hereditary should be REALLY mad at their parents for making them so stump-humping stupid.

Agreed

[Jader Pack]

No, you're just reading things in to other people's posts again. I do that by mistake sometimes too, but you really seem to make a habit of it.

The cause of the B/W IQ disparity is genes. It isn't the race that causes disparity but the genetics that go along with it that determine intellect.

You were saying? No one needed him to clarify his position except you.

If you reject the heritability of IQ, you really should read the Bell Curve instead of some article or summary of it.

That isn't what the Bell Curve said. At most, they speculated that genes might be responsible, but provided no evidence and acknowledge that the nature/nurture debate remains unresolved. It remains so to this day.

Perhaps you could quote the specific sections of the book where the authors actually argue that genes/race are responsible for the difference?

[Jader Pack]

pretending your opponent is saying something different than they actually are.

That did not happen. Both 100% and Slapo-whatever are arguing that the same genes that are responsible for race are responsible for the IQ differences between races.

anyone who rejects the truth that intelligence is hereditary should be REALLY mad at their parents for making them so stump-humping stupid.

Truth? Perhaps you could cite some peer-reviewed sources in support of that truth? Or is this just one of those "common sense" things that don't need any evidence, like "humans did not evolve from monkeys" and "humans can't possibly be affecting the climate?"

The people who actually research and study these issues, using actual evidence, have not come anywhere near to resolving this issue. There's no way you've resolved it.

[Jader Pack]

There is nothing racist about it, I'm not spreading or inciting hatred, nor do I condone it. I am just stating what is true. I'm sorry if it offends you but frankly if you or anyone else offended that is your issue not mine. You are not arguing successfully for your side because there is no successful way to argue it.

I'm happy to continue doing this every time one of you repeats your baseless assertions: [citation needed]

Awaiting your response that it's unfair to ask for evidence of assertions, or simply repeating your assertions without providing any supporting evidence.

[Slapoquidik]

You were saying? No one needed him to clarify his position except you.

I'm running out of ideas for how to make this any simpler for you.

The cause of the B/W IQ disparity is genes. It isn't the race that causes disparity but the genetics that go along with it that determine intellect. Is it in the pigmentation? No that's just ridiculous.

Pay particular attention to the bold words above you seem hellbent on ignoring. Genetics is the cause, not race. Were you assuming the phrase "go along with it" meant causation rather than correlation? I can't figure out how else you could keep misreading him. Perhaps my troll/moron detector is broken.

[Slapoquidik]

If you reject the heritability of IQ, you really should read the Bell Curve instead of some article or summary of it.

That isn't what the Bell Curve said.

You're funny for two reasons: First because you're telling me what a book said; a book that I've read, and you haven't. Second, because you are yet again reading something into what I wrote, that just isn't there.

I didn't claim that the Bell Curve proves heritability of IQ. If you reject the heritability of IQ, if you think there isn't room for doubt on the subject, you should read the book.

Are you beginning to see how I didn't suggest the Bell Curve would provide you the "Truth" free of all doubt?

At most, they speculated that genes might be responsible, but provided no evidence and acknowledge that the nature/nurture debate remains unresolved. It remains so to this day.

So much confidence about a book you've never read. Did they also show that studies of other plausible environmental (nurture) causes of IQ scores showed a weaker correlation to IQ than parental IQ scores? You'll have to read it to find out!

Perhaps you could quote the specific sections of the book where the authors actually argue that genes/race are responsible for the difference?

No thanks.

I withdraw my recommendation that you read it at all. I don't think you have the reading skills necessary to get anything out of it. If you can still use the word "race" above, this far in to this thread, after being corrected so often, I don't think your old enough to get anything out of it.

Now I feel like an idiot, for arguing with a child on the interwebs. This place...

[Jader Pack]

I'm running out of ideas for how to make this any simpler for you.



Pay particular attention to the bold words above you seem hellbent on ignoring. Genetics is the cause, not race. Were you assuming the phrase "go along with it" meant causation rather than correlation? I can't figure out how else you could keep misreading him. Perhaps my troll/moron detector is broken.

OK, let's assume that it's true that intelligence is determined by genes. What does that have to do with the subject at hand, which is (evidently) intelligence and race?

Edit: I ask because 100% is saying that the genotypes that cause lower IQ scores occur more frequently in blacks. In other words, he's saying that it's because black people are black that they, as a population, exhibit lower IQ scores, and not because of culture, environment, discrimination, etc. That is, of course, simply unsupported by the evidence, which is why he can't provide any at all.

[Jader Pack]

You're funny for two reasons: First because you're telling me what a book said; a book that I've read, and you haven't. Second, because you are yet again reading something into what I wrote, that just isn't there.

Having read the book does not guarantee that you understand it. Could be that every summary about the conclusion of the book is wrong, but it's much more likely that you misunderstood it. Case in point:

Did they also show that studies of other plausible environmental (nurture) causes of IQ scores showed a weaker correlation to IQ than parental IQ scores? You'll have to read it to find out!

Do you think that established a causal relationship? You'll have to figure out the difference between causal relationships and correlation to find out.

[100% Euro]

It looks like I am one of two people (Slapoquidik) to have actually read the book that everyone else seems to be an expert on. I suggest you read the book and see the contents of it. There have already been numerous occasions when something was covered in the book but someone decides even tough they have not read the book that it must not have been covered; the nature/nurture debate comes to mind. I feel like i'm wasting my time. I had hopes that you guys where mature enough to at least read the book, I'm not kidding when I say its dirt cheap. Just buy it, read it then report back with your opinions. I am also not implying that it is the end all be all source for this information. I have many more sources, but maybe ill feed them to you slowly so you don't choke on real information. Start with the Bell Curve and we can get progressively more modern studies for you to read, ok children?

[Fritz27]

Black people are stupid because they're black.

Happy, 100% Hitlerjugend?

[Fritz27]

The problem is the IQ disparity between races, it will never go away. AA forces employers to hire the less qualified worker if they are of a certain race (non-white) which is funny considering whites will soon be the minority, the fact is AA is in place not because of discrimination but because blacks for example are less likely as a whole to be as qualified for the position as whites. Of course this is "racist" and not pc but its true and most people see this as such whether they admit it or not.

Obviously there are people on both extremes, there are Blacks more intelligent than Whites just not in average. You have already admitted that no one debates the difference in IQ of whites and blacks in average. As I hope you realize race is much more than pigment. Color Neil DeGrasse-Tyson and Mike Rowe pink then ask someone to guess the original race based on facial structure alone anyone would be able to tell you the answer with a very high success rate. The differences are well documented I don't need to tell you anything that I have not already given you the access to in this thread earlier on. There are hundreds or studies and probably 15% of those are within the last 5 years on the subject that conclude the racial differences in IQ are indeed real. It was nearly 80 years ago when it was proven that IQ is determined by genes. Put it all together Whites and Blacks have an IQ disparity + IQ determined mostly by Genetics = Black and white disparity caused by genetics. Funny you ask the sliding scale if you look at an article I linked a while back they give you the information you are looking for, white + black = slightly more intelligent that average black and slightly less than the average white in most cases. Its like when you mix chocolate and vanilla ice cream you get brown the more you add chocolate over time the more it turns black again. The same works for this, if over generations the mating is more black biased than the average heads downwards toward the black average IQ of 80. Now you could argue that IQ is not the only way to measure intellect and I would agree with you but for now it is the only standard we have to work with and I would argue that it works quite well for its intended purpose and the link between IQ and success is well documented.

Yeah, apparently 100% Hitlerjugend doesn't think the whole IQ/race thing is causation and instead is arguing about genetics.

Slapoquidik is dumb.

[100% Euro]

Black people are stupid because they're black.

Happy, 100% Hitlerjugend?

That's just tasteless, i'm not a racist dude. What would make me happy is if you guys did some research.

Yeah, apparently 100% Hitlerjugend doesn't think the whole IQ/race thing is causation and instead is arguing about genetics.

Slapoquidik is dumb.

I have been arguing genetics the whole time idiot, race just happens to be tied in with it. Slapoquidik seems more valid than you in this discussion. Is causation your favorite word? Time to break out the thesaurus your keyboard could use a break from typing the same trash over and over again.

[Jader Pack]

I have many more sources, but maybe ill feed them to you slowly so you don't choke on real information. Start with the Bell Curve and we can get progressively more modern studies for you to read, ok children?

"Bell Curve" is a book, not a study. And also, you don't have any more sources, because the "nature vs nurture" debate is not settled as you repeatedly claim.

[Jader Pack]

Slapoquidik is dumb.

If someone's going to be a racist like 100%, he should at least have the balls to come out and say that IQ is causally linked to race, rather than constantly implying it ("intelligence is linked to genes, and that's why there's a difference in IQ between the races" ... that is exactly what you're implying, just in an annoying and indirect fashion) then backing away from it when people call him on it.

[Jader Pack]

I have been arguing genetics the whole time idiot, race just happens to be tied in with it. Slapoquidik seems more valid than you in this discussion.

Have you not read him spending the last two pages calling me an idiot for describing your position exactly as you did above? What's "valid" about that?

Is causation your favorite word?

If you consistently make the exact same mistake over and over and over, you're going to hear the word describing that mistake over and over and over.

You do not understand the difference between correlation and causation. Bell Curve, the only source you have cited in support of your idea that IQ and race are causally linked, only argues that there's a correlation (which is not disputed by anyone in this thread), and speculates as to the cause. It's telling that there are no peer-reviewed works supporting that speculation.

[100% Euro]

Like I said, read the book and we can go from there. Stop mentioning it if you haven't read it that behavior is inane. There is no nature nurture debate its nature, period. The ability to learn that you are born with is what you get. Are you aware that you can edit a post? Or do you want three posts in a row for a reason?

[FlashRedGLS1.8T]

Thread has gone horribly off the tracks.

[jebglx]

done done DONE

you are entitled to your own opinions but keep the racist **** OFF my forums