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    Thread: Aftermarket Intakes and Fuel Trim Issues

    1. Member
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      10-17-2012 12:49 PM #1
      Over the past few days, quite a bit of discussion and testing has been going on in the "Let's discuss boost!" thread about various logs. Some of these logs showed strange issues with air intake flow (g/s), throttle valve position and timing retardation. Several people have pointed to these issues possibly arising due to poor readings at the Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF).

      On our cars (and any turbo car, especially those equipped with aftermarket cold air intakes), a poor MAF reading or air that enters the intake tract after the MAF can produce a lean condition in the engine. The ECU's O2 sensor reads and reports these conditions and the car will apply a "fuel trim" correction in order to get the engines AFR back to where it should be.

      In addition to that, when the car senses a lean condition it can retard timing or reduce throttle valve position in order to protect the engine. This is visible to us through VCDS/VAG-COM logs when we have a throttle position of less than 99.6% at WOT during a logging run.

      More info into the problem can be found here (particularly pages 5-9): http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-discuss-boost!

      We decided to start this thread to bring everyone's attention to this potential issue. Some people may not want to sift through a 9 page thread, and we think that this issue may be a lot more widespread than we thought, so a new thread was created in order to get the information out better.

      IF YOU HAVE AN AFTERMARKET INTAKE AND ACCESS TO VCDS please check your fuel trim values going to Select Control Module -> 01 - Engine -> Meas. Blocks - 08. Type the value "032" into the block and scan. The car does not need to be moving, as it scans memory for this value.

      SAFE values for Block 032 are between +0-10%. More than that and you are running lean, have too much fuel trim and are probably losing timing or throttle position to compensate for the lean condition. The closer to 0% the better, but 0% is an impossible value (the stock intake reads at +3%).





      (Push Meas. Blocks 08 instead of the button pictured.)


      For information on how to do a full datalog, go here: http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php

      ---

      The following intakes have been observed to cause "lean" conditions with the Golf R MAF and have produced fuel trim values exceeding what is generally considered a "safe" value:

      Stock Intake: Fuel Trims from +0 to +5% - Safe
      APR Carbonio: +0 to +8% - Safe
      Forge WINtake: +10 to +25% - CEL Possible
      Forge TWINtake: +5 to +15% - CEL Unlikely
      EVOMs Intake: +0 to +~5% - Safe
      CTS Turbo Intake: +0 to +~5% - Safe
      Neuspeed P-Flo Intake: +0 to +~8% - Safe
      VWR Intake: +5 to +20% - CEL Possible
      VWR Intake (Post-Warranty Modification): +0 to ~8% - CEL Unlikely
      Volant Intake: +0 to +~5% - Safe
      Injen Intake: +5 to +20% - CEL Possible
      BSH Intake: +0 to ~10% - CEL Unlikely
      Last edited by jsausley; 01-02-2013 at 02:54 PM.

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      10-17-2012 12:50 PM #2
      I would like to see 2-3 logs of each intake at an abnormal fuel trim value before we add it to the list, as some could be isolated issues (clamps not tight, bad MAFs, etc. etc.). We have seen several intakes producing values >+10%, but only one or two scans.

      If you have an aftermarket intake, PLEASE log your Block 032! You could be losing power without even knowing it!

      We need scans of:

      VWR
      Forge WINtake
      Forge TWINtake
      Volant
      BSH
      CTS/EVOMs
      And any others.
      Last edited by jsausley; 10-17-2012 at 12:54 PM.

    3. Forum Sponsor Arin@APR's Avatar
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      10-17-2012 01:10 PM #3
      If you scan 100 stock vehicles, you'll find they are not all identical, even if they don't have any obvious issues.

      Here are just a few things that can alter the readings:

      Leak after the MAF
      Leak after the Turbo
      (Boost/Vacuum Leak)
      Faulty or slightly different reading maf sensor
      Faulty or slightly different spraying injector
      Faulty or slightly different pumping fuel pump
      Faulty or slightly different reading rail pressure sensor
      Faulty or slightly different reading oxygen sensor
      (Faulty airflow/fueling sensors/components)
      Incorrect diameter MAF housing.
      Incorrect MAF tolerances.
      Turbulent airflow.
      MAF housing placement.
      Seal around the MAF sensor (tolerances).
      Altered MAF/Fueling scaling in software (Should'd be altered unless big turbo with bigger maf, bigger injectors, etc).

      As a basic rule of thumb:

      High positive fuel trim values = Oxygen sensor reporting more air / less fuel than expected. (Adding Fuel to fix the issue)
      High negative fuel trim values = Oxygen sensor reporting less air / more fuel than expected. (Removing Fuel to fix the issue)

      Also, clearing fault codes, even if none exist, will reset fuel trims.
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      10-17-2012 01:14 PM #4
      I'd like to mention a couple things.

      1) Removing or changing the canister won't do anything for fuel trims, the MAF is too far down stream.

      2) The issue is likely in the piping ID and the nature of the gas as it passes over the MAF. Every intake including OEM has a 90* before the MAF, its a fixed bend. The amount of piping used to make this bend and how far off the MAF is from this point can be altered, although I don't think this is the problem. The OEM is an oblong shape, if you were to do the math correctly and get the correct cross sectional area the velocity of gas between OEM housing and cylinder could be much different. The OEM collects air from an open space and runs it through the MAF that sits in an oblong housing, this could cause a funnel effect. The intake piping if a typical cylinder is going to have a different characteristic than this, it will definitely have a different delta of velocity or rather acceleration of gas across the sensor than the OEM MAF housing.

      3) How the MAF physically sits in the OEM, its much different than how it'd fit in aftermarket intake piping. Perhaps to experiment it could be inserted at slight angles and moved further into the housing. A good example of this is this picture -




      What is the best course for anybody making an intake? If causing a positive fuel trim, unmetered air is getting past the MAF. By upping velocity this would have the MAF recognizing a greater flow and lower fuel trims. I would create a funnel effect similar to OEM by scaling the ID down by 1 or 2mm, I would take the section that the MAF sits in and have it mandrel bent to a slight oblong and make sure the transitions for this are both consistent and solid. This pirce can be done seperately and then welded on to the tradition cylindrical intake piping, making this slightly oblong will make how the MAF sensor sits more accurate. Lastly I would have the compressor inlet hose shaped as a funnel that goes from intake piping diameter to compressor diameter in a smooth transition. Another thing that needs to be considered is that as flow increases the slope of this would have to match the slope of how flow increases over the OEM housing.

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      10-17-2012 01:19 PM #5
      Some good extra info there Arin.

      From logging the ten or so vehicles with several different intakes in the Boost thread, there seems to be an issue with some aftermarket intakes and not others that produce high fuel trim numbers. Since most of our cars are still mostly stock as far as injectors, MAFs and so on, AND mostly new, most of the parts you pointed to should still be working as intended or expected. There definitely appears to be relationship issues with some aftermarket intakes and the stock R MAF. What is actually causing the problem with a specific intake could be, as you said, a number of things but hopefully we might be able to make some guesses and it will be great to have a thread where a large number of logs and readings are posted.

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      10-17-2012 01:22 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by jsausley View Post
      Over the past few days, quite a bit of discussion and testing has been going on in the "Let's discuss boost!" thread about various logs. Some of these logs showed strange issues with air intake flow (g/s), throttle valve position and timing retardation. Several people have pointed to these issues possibly arising due to poor readings at the Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF).

      On our cars (and any turbo car, especially those equipped with aftermarket cold air intakes), a poor MAF reading or air that enters the intake tract after the MAF can produce a lean condition in the engine. The ECU's O2 sensor reads and reports these conditions and the car will apply a "fuel trim" correction in order to get the engines AFR back to where it should be.

      In addition to that, when the car senses a lean condition it can retard timing or reduce throttle valve position in order to protect the engine. This is visible to us through VCDS/VAG-COM logs when we have a throttle position of less than 99.6% at WOT during a logging run.

      More info into the problem can be found here (particularly pages 5-9): http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-discuss-boost!

      We decided to start this thread to bring everyone's attention to this potential issue. Some people may not want to sift through a 9 page thread, and we think that this issue may be a lot more widespread than we thought, so a new thread was created in order to get the information out better.

      SAFE values for Block 032 are between +0-10%. More than that and you are running lean, have too much fuel trim and are probably losing timing or throttle position to compensate for the lean condition. The closer to 0% the better, but 0% is an impossible value (the stock intake reads at +3%).

      The following intakes have been observed to cause "lean" conditions with the Golf R MAF and have produced fuel trim values exceeding what is generally considered a "safe" value:

      Intakes will be added here as logs are posted.
      You've certainly learned a lot since yesterday

      I can't believe how drasticly/quickly a couple of my comments about how the MAF sensor works, how it alters the vehicles performance and what to look for changed this entire forum with regard to aftermarket intakes. This is good, I wish GolfMK5 would've caught on like this, they all believe "an intake, is an intake" and most of them have probably never logged how everything is working for them.

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      10-17-2012 01:27 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by MKV727 View Post
      You've certainly learned a lot since yesterday

      I can't believe how drasticly/quickly a couple of my comments about how the MAF sensor works, how it alters the vehicles performance and what to look for changed this entire forum with regard to aftermarket intakes. This is good, I wish GolfMK5 would've caught on like this, they all believe "an intake, is an intake" and most of them have probably never logged how everything is working for them.
      I really learned a lot from you, and cannot thank you and people like you enough.

    8. Member notavr's Avatar
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      10-17-2012 01:31 PM #8
      i'm running a forge wintake, i checked mine before i went to lunch they were showing -0.1% and 21.5% reset the codes and checked blocks 32 both were showing 0.0. I drove to get lunch and back about 2 miles they now show 0.9% and 17%

      my vwr intake will be at my house tomorrow. i will try to get some pics of the maf housing of that, get it installed and log some more

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      10-17-2012 01:32 PM #9
      A little bit of research goes a long way.

      By the way, I guess I should post my logs:



      No Turbo button, sorry about that.

      APR Stage 2+, APR RSC TBE, APR HPFP, Forge Twintercooler, Forge Wintake. Fuel trim values of -1.5 / +19.5.

      Quote Originally Posted by notavr View Post
      i'm running a forge wintake, i checked mine before i went to lunch they were showing -0.1% and 21.5% reset the codes and checked blocks 32 both were showing 0.0. I drove to get lunch and back about 2 miles they now show 0.9% and 17%

      my vwr intake will be at my house tomorrow. i will try to get some pics of the maf housing of that, get it installed and log some more
      Sounds awesome. Looking forward to hearing about it. Where did you get the VWR intake from? If it comes out to <10% LTFT APR will have likely taken even yet more of my money.
      Last edited by jsausley; 10-17-2012 at 01:35 PM.

    10. Member batman25's Avatar
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      10-17-2012 01:35 PM #10
      Just throwing this out there but in the OEM setup the air should be moving slower and more turbulent because of the filter placement. Every aftermarket setup filters first then the air is sent through a smooth pipe over the MAF.

      Im probably not adding much to the discussion.

    11. Banned ThatVdub's Avatar
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      10-17-2012 01:37 PM #11
      notavr, I believe those values would have went higher with more miles.

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      10-17-2012 01:41 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by jsausley View Post
      A little bit of research goes a long way.

      By the way, I guess I should post my logs:



      No Turbo button, sorry about that.

      APR Stage 2+, APR RSC TBE, APR HPFP, Forge Twintercooler, Forge Wintake. Fuel trim values of -1.5 / +19.5.


      Sounds awesome. Looking forward to hearing about it. Where did you get the VWR intake from? If it comes out to <10% LTFT APR will have likely taken even yet more of my money.
      What is your ambient temperature for these logs? The IAT is bumping up 4*C to redline, by the second run its 5*C than the first run.

      You don't have turbo mode but a trick is to rescale and select as many measuring points from a single block as possible, it will prevent VCDS from having to reference too many signals for its data.

      In case you didn't know, for an APR calibration on 93 octane they generally push upwards of 18-20* BTDC at redline.

      **** For everybody who has an aftermarket intake, or wants to check all pertinent data points I recommend checking lambda actual. When I was helping "thedude4bides" he started the thread because he was concerned over how rich the tune was, I then explained to him how/why it could be happening.****
      Last edited by MKV727; 10-17-2012 at 01:45 PM.

    13. Member notavr's Avatar
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      10-17-2012 01:46 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by jsausley View Post

      Sounds awesome. Looking forward to hearing about it. Where did you get the VWR intake from? If it comes out to <10% LTFT APR will have likely taken even yet more of my money.
      we'll know soon.

      Quote Originally Posted by ThatVdub View Post
      notavr, I believe those values would have went higher with more miles.
      yeah i think so too. my drive home from work is 25miles so ill check them again when i get home

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      10-17-2012 01:48 PM #14
      Here's my rundown...

      APR 1+ software
      APR HPFP
      Forge Wintake

      Everything else is stock.

      My 032 numbers started out as +0.7 and +18.8%. I cleared it the system, loosened, readjusted and tightened all the hoses and clamps to rule out a leak and went for a drive and and it went up to +19.1%

      I have a Volant intake on the way. I'll check it again when that gets installed and see if it fixes the issue.

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      10-17-2012 01:50 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by MKV727 View Post
      What is your ambient temperature for these logs? The IAT is bumping up 4*C to redline, by the second run its 5*C than the first run.
      It was about 60 deg F or 15-16 deg C outside.

      I had a lot of "sit and idle" time between the runs as I pulled over and stopped to check VCDS and wait for clear road before the first run and between the first and second run.

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      10-17-2012 01:56 PM #16
      Jsausley & notavr - My VWR intake is at +3.1 LTFT, its had a hundred miles of adaptation since swapping it in 2 days ago.

      I've owned it for a while and just recently started logging it, its always felt really strong up top.

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      10-17-2012 01:56 PM #17
      The boost thread was good stuff. MKV727 and a couple others really did contribute a ton, thanks for the insight and knowledge! I'm glad to see it continuing and more exploring going on. Logging is a wonderful thing.

      Don't know if you care about Carbonio numbers on this car but I can give you those if needed. Being that it retains the OEM MAF housing I wouldn't expect the numbers to be too far out from 0.

    18. Member rjlangle's Avatar
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      10-17-2012 02:09 PM #18
      MKV your expertise is greatly appreciated. If you're going to WITW this year, ill make jsausley buy you a

      I've tried to learn quite a bit from these 2 threads and everyone else should be too

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      10-17-2012 02:13 PM #19
      I am pretty lucky that the EVOMs really shined, esp for a filter on a stick setup, giving high MAF
      values and also giving great fuel trim values.
      Granted, it was in the - fuel trim area, as well as some OEM values I've seen, but I think -2.2% is
      pretty damn good. Should I, or would I prefer a +2.2%? Don't see why, but?
      Last edited by ThatVdub; 10-17-2012 at 02:22 PM. Reason: grammar

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      10-17-2012 02:15 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by rjlangle View Post
      MKV your expertise is greatly appreciated. If you're going to WITW this year, ill make jsausley buy you a

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      10-17-2012 02:15 PM #21
      I know these are not logs of an aftermarket intake but I figured logs from a stock intake would still be helpful for comparisons sake.

      This is my APR Stage 1+ car, stock intake.

      3rd Gear Run:



      4th Gear Run:


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      10-17-2012 02:21 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by webcrawlr View Post
      The boost thread was good stuff. MKV727 and a couple others really did contribute a ton, thanks for the insight and knowledge! I'm glad to see it continuing and more exploring going on. Logging is a wonderful thing.

      Don't know if you care about Carbonio numbers on this car but I can give you those if needed. Being that it retains the OEM MAF housing I wouldn't expect the numbers to be too far out from 0.
      I would like to see those from the Carbonio.

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      10-17-2012 02:21 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by jsausley View Post

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      10-17-2012 02:41 PM #24
      Unitronic Stage 1+ with CTS Intake: +1.5% (idle) -14.7% (partial)
      Unitronic Stage 1+ with stock Intake: +1.2 (idle) -12.9% (partial)
      Stock tune with stock Intake: +0.6 (idle) -1.4% (partial) <== after I detuned the car from Uni.

      At work now, so I don't have time to post the logs from my Unitronic tune w/ CTS Intake but if you want to look see post 1 here:
      http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44306

      Unitronic with Stock Intake see post #47 here:
      http://golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44314&page=3

      (you might even see a familiar name in there!)

      I'll check the APR 1+ with Carbonio tonight and report back...
      Last edited by Thedude4bides; 10-17-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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      10-17-2012 02:44 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by RBGolfR View Post
      I would like to see those from the Carbonio.
      APR Stg2+ 93 tune, APR HPFP, APR TBE, Carbonio.

      Idle: 1.4%
      Partial: 0.8%

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      10-17-2012 05:41 PM #26
      picked up a stock snorkel today. ill be reverting back to stock intake and logging as soon as i get a chance.

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      10-17-2012 05:50 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Thedude4bides View Post
      Unitronic Stage 1+ with CTS Intake: +1.5% (idle) -14.7% (partial)
      Unitronic Stage 1+ with stock Intake: +1.2 (idle) -12.9% (partial)
      Stock tune with stock Intake: +0.6 (idle) -1.4% (partial) <== after I detuned the car from Uni.

      At work now, so I don't have time to post the logs from my Unitronic tune w/ CTS Intake but if you want to look see post 1 here:
      http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44306

      Unitronic with Stock Intake see post #47 here:
      http://golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44314&page=3

      (you might even see a familiar name in there!)

      I'll check the APR 1+ with Carbonio tonight and report back...
      Get the logs for the APR stage 1+ w/ Carbonio!

    28. Member notavr's Avatar
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      10-17-2012 06:30 PM #28
      i logged my apr stage2+ with the wintake today still showing 0.8% and 21.9%. if i get a chance tonight i will throw the stock intake on and log that tomorrow and then the vwr on friday. ill post all the logs once i get them

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      10-17-2012 06:56 PM #29
      Here's what I saw today on my way to work. VWR intake, HPA tune and downpipe

      Idle
      STFT -0.8
      LTFT 7.8
      Part throttle
      STFT -2.3
      LTFT 14.2

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      10-17-2012 07:03 PM #30
      I would think the high positive fuel trims on part throttle crusing and decel would be normal. As the car when not under boost is showing any where from 14.0 to 23.0 to 1 as an AFR. Anything over 14.7 is going to call for more fuel to try and reach the comanded AFR of 14.7.

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      10-17-2012 09:10 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Pimp View Post
      I would think the high positive fuel trims on part throttle crusing and decel would be normal. As the car when not under boost is showing any where from 14.0 to 23.0 to 1 as an AFR. Anything over 14.7 is going to call for more fuel to try and reach the comanded AFR of 14.7.
      Eh? Not sure I follow.

      If I understand it correctly what you're talking about is simply the fuel maps. The fuel trim is an additional correction factor on top of the fuel map. That's why a high positive fuel trim is causing our cars to cut timing and throttle, because the car has thrown such a big correction factor on top of the normal fuel map.

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      10-17-2012 09:20 PM #32
      have any representatives from forge posted on this topic anywhere?

      this seems like the very first thing youd look at during the construction and subsequent testing of an intake for our cars. have these been running overseas previously? did the test units perform as intended and just a recent batch is causing the problem?

      this whole thing is weird to me.

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      10-17-2012 09:31 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by palerider View Post
      have any representatives from forge posted on this topic anywhere?

      this seems like the very first thing youd look at during the construction and subsequent testing of an intake for our cars. have these been running overseas previously? did the test units perform as intended and just a recent batch is causing the problem?

      this whole thing is weird to me.
      Sort of.

      According to Mike @ Forge (my paraphrasing here): They are aware of an issue on the Rs and this intake but they don't believe it is an issue that exists with all WINtakes. They believe it is an isolated issue (though it seems to be isolated to quite a few members here, but I digress) related to a difference in the Rs MAF, the intake's MAF bung or it's location. Remember that this intake was originally designed for the Passat but it functioned on numerous other cars. It's possible that there IS a MAF difference between the car that we have and the car that this intake was designed and tested with. Rs in Australia have had the same issues so it doesn't appear to be limited to US-spec cars.

      My WINtake was installed in March so it's not something with recent batches, though it could be fixed on recent batches.

      Mike said that Forge will be testing several different WINtakes from different batches as well as the TWINtake in order to pinpoint the problem and possible solutions.

      Did you have a chance to log yours?

    34. Member XSSIVE's Avatar
      Join Date
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      337 (sold), '13 Golf R
      10-17-2012 09:53 PM #34
      Here's the Australian thread where they noticed the problem. Keeping it with this thread may be a good idea to keep track of the amount of Rs that have the problem.

      http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread....sor-read-issue

      I posted over there to point them in this threads direction.

    35. Member velocity196's Avatar
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      2006 MK4 GTI, 2012 Golf R
      10-17-2012 10:05 PM #35
      I'm almost willing to bet this is software specific issue. Eurodyne maestro, zero MAF tuning with CTS intake and last I looked my trims were .2 and 2.9.
      PTE5858 custom top mounted from ->Todd Cope's Horsepower Barn

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