''The ultimate winter beast'' or ''Let’s discuss AWD/4WD systems and winter driving…''

[Bakounine]

What kind of system do you like best (part-time 4wd, full-time 4wd, clutch-plate awd, viscous-coupling awd, etc.) and if you were going to build a dedicated winter monster, what vehicle/mods would you pick? Share your experiences and theories!

I used to have a Jeep Cherokee with studded Winterforce tires. That thing was an absolute beast during snowstorms and had an unexpected advantage elsewhere: street parking downtown. As snowbanks can eat up as much as half a street in residential downtown areas, a smallish 4X4 can be pretty useful. The high clearance makes it harder to get high centered and the low range can get you (or others) out of trouble with ease. I often found myself parking the XJ on top of snow banks where no other car would have dared to venture.

This being said, the XJ had a few shortcomings too. First, it was a bit limited by the part-time nature of its transfer case. I did not want to leave it in 4wd all the time for fear of breaking something and shifting from 2 to 4wd was tiresome and not very effective, especially in half dry/half snowy or icy conditions. Also, the handling, especially at highway speed, was ok, at best. Finally, it was getting old and needed repairs, which is why I ended up getting rid of it.

Now, this is my first winter with my ’06 Outback 3.0R. Perhaps my expectations were too high or perhaps I am just a bit blasé by the Jeep’s abilities, but I am not as impressed as I thought I would be with its snow and ice performance. Don’t get me wrong, the thing is 100% more surefooted than my GTI, but it’s not as grippy and/or predictable as I thought it would be. I haven’t got stuck yet, but it slides a bit more than I’d like and understeers a lot in low friction situations. I realize this probably has more to do with tire selection (the car came with Toyos and they suck; I swear by Nokians), but I also found that its more sophisticated awd system than the Jeep can be a disadvantage sometimes as I witnessed a couple weeks ago. We had a snowstorm which left about a foot of heavy snow on the ground which turned into heavy slush on the street. In these conditions, the awd system in the Subie struggled to send power to the wheels with the most traction. During slow turns, it almost felt like it was being quartered under its own power, tugging and pulling in all directions under throttle application. A simpler system would have spun its wheels a bit, but would have been a bit more predictable I think. There is also no low-range on the Subie and downtown street parking is not as easy as with the Jeep as I need to be more careful with the bodywork and especially bumper covers (snow banks can often hide hard-packed snow or ice blocks that can be damaging).

All this to say I’d prefer something like my old XJ, but in a newer package and with a awd setting on top of the 2wd, 4hi and 4lo settings. I know the Liberty had the NV242 transfer that did just that, but in such an undesirable package otherwise that I’d prefer something else… such as a JK Unlimited with a 242 swapped in, for example... I would also like an e-locker in the rear for really nasty situations when a 4X4 can become a no-wheel drive. A front mounted hitch could be useful for helping out others who got stuck. Unfortunately, I don’t think Nokian makes studded tires for JK sizes…. bummer.

Your turn!

[Sir UNBANNED_GERBIL M.B.]

Torsen quattro is best. It's my opinion and I'm always right. /thread. Thanks for coming out




I have no idea

[Ross1013]

The car I really wish Honda/Acura would build is a 5-door (not wagon) TL w/SH-AWD and the current 6MT or the upcoming 7DCT and an adjustable ride height.

[emmettlodge]

Part-time 4WD has come a long way since the Jeep Cherokee days. My Tacoma has a switch on the dash so I can click it in and out of 4WD while moving at any speed in any gear, and it engages instantly. So that's really handy. It allows me to cruise along in a fuel efficient 2WD mode but should I hit a hill or have to come to a stop and then get moving again, I can have instant 4WD on demand.

[Shomegrown]

For me it's simple.

Truck: Locked center and rear diffs. I'll sort the rest out with my right foot.

Car: Full time system that sends more than 50% torque to the rear axle.

[SVTDanny]

I love my XJ in the snow. Unstoppable unless 10' of snow drop from the sky overnight.

[Shomegrown]

I love my XJ in the snow. Unstoppable unless 10' of snow drop from the sky overnight.

8.25" rear or Dana35? Get yourself a cheap locking rear differential - makes for a lot of fun...

[92VR6C]

I echo the tacoma statement, my tacoma is great. However, my Element 4WD system is awesome with Blizzaks on icy/packed snow roads and intersections.

[BsickPassat]

What kind of system do you like best (part-time 4wd, full-time 4wd, clutch-plate awd, viscous-coupling awd, etc.) and if you were going to build a dedicated winter monster, what vehicle/mods would you pick? Share your experiences and theories!

I used to have a Jeep Cherokee with studded Winterforce tires. That thing was an absolute beast during snowstorms and had an unexpected advantage elsewhere: street parking downtown. As snowbanks can eat up as much as half a street in residential downtown areas, a smallish 4X4 can be pretty useful. The high clearance makes it harder to get high centered and the low range can get you (or others) out of trouble with ease. I often found myself parking the XJ on top of snow banks where no other car would have dared to venture.

This being said, the XJ had a few shortcomings too. First, it was a bit limited by the part-time nature of its transfer case. I did not want to leave it in 4wd all the time for fear of breaking something and shifting from 2 to 4wd was tiresome and not very effective, especially in half dry/half snowy or icy conditions. Also, the handling, especially at highway speed, was ok, at best. Finally, it was getting old and needed repairs, which is why I ended up getting rid of it.

Now, this is my first winter with my ’06 Outback 3.0R. Perhaps my expectations were too high or perhaps I am just a bit blasé by the Jeep’s abilities, but I am not as impressed as I thought I would be with its snow and ice performance. Don’t get me wrong, the thing is 100% more surefooted than my GTI, but it’s not as grippy and/or predictable as I thought it would be. I haven’t got stuck yet, but it slides a bit more than I’d like and understeers a lot in low friction situations. I realize this probably has more to do with tire selection (the car came with Toyos and they suck; I swear by Nokians), but I also found that its more sophisticated awd system than the Jeep can be a disadvantage sometimes as I witnessed a couple weeks ago. We had a snowstorm which left about a foot of heavy snow on the ground which turned into heavy slush on the street. In these conditions, the awd system in the Subie struggled to send power to the wheels with the most traction. During slow turns, it almost felt like it was being quartered under its own power, tugging and pulling in all directions under throttle application. A simpler system would have spun its wheels a bit, but would have been a bit more predictable I think. There is also no low-range on the Subie and downtown street parking is not as easy as with the Jeep as I need to be more careful with the bodywork and especially bumper covers (snow banks can often hide hard-packed snow or ice blocks that can be damaging).

All this to say I’d prefer something like my old XJ, but in a newer package and with a awd setting on top of the 2wd, 4hi and 4lo settings. I know the Liberty had the NV242 transfer that did just that, but in such an undesirable package otherwise that I’d prefer something else… such as a JK Unlimited with a 242 swapped in, for example... I would also like an e-locker in the rear for really nasty situations when a 4X4 can become a no-wheel drive. A front mounted hitch could be useful for helping out others who got stuck. Unfortunately, I don’t think Nokian makes studded tires for JK sizes…. bummer.

Your turn!

You never specified what tires you ran on the Outback.

If you put an equivalent tire to the studded winter force, things probably would be different.

[Cousin Eddie]

I'm loving my 95 Grand Cherokee with the NP242 selec-trac t-case. (4High part-time/full-time & 4LO selectable) and a set of Cooper Weathermaster winters. The thing is glued to the road in Full-Time 4x4 and stops extremely well.

I almost don't want to put the lift kit and 33s on it in the spring. I am hoping it will work reasonably well next winter with a set of Yokohama 32" winters.

[Pf3il]

i'm new to the 4/AWD world, but i was thoroughly impressed by the RAV4 (with Dunlop A/Ts) in last week's snow up in VT. several full-size pickups were stuck in the parking lot at Sugarbush, but the little 'yota made it's way out like it was dry.

[emmettlodge]

i'm new to the 4/AWD world, but i was thoroughly impressed by the RAV4 (with Dunlop A/Ts) in last week's snow up in VT. several full-size pickups were stuck in the parking lot at Sugarbush, but the little 'yota made it's way out like it was dry.

Which Dunlops? AT20?

[redshift]

You never specified what tires you ran on the Outback.

If you put an equivalent tire to the studded winter force, things probably would be different.

He said Toyos, but didn't specify if they were winter tires or no-seasons. I'm willing to guess they weren't winter tires.

I think that 99% of the OP's traction concerns are the fault of the tires, and that "quartering under acceleration" feeling might be alignment-related. AWD cars, I've found, are pretty sensitive to alignment settings. I aligned our WRX 3 times in the last 2 months before I found a good mix of stability and turn-in. If you have any toe-out at all, especially in the rear, you will feel it in less-than-ideal traction conditions as tires with different levels of traction fight each other for control of the whole car. You really need the toe and thrust angle dialed in tight.

I'm more than pleased with the WRX in low-traction conditions, but it does have Blizzaks so a lot of it is down to tires. I have to try hard to get it to slide, and I have to try really hard to get it stuck. Haven't succeeded yet.

[Pf3il]

uhhhh these. it's a 5-speed, so it has a locking center differential. it likes to get sideways.

[Uberhare]

The best performing AWD system I've used is the older Audi Quattro system with electronic locking rear diff. Late 80's and early 90's type Quattro. Combine it with ice tires or maybe studs and I never got stuck. VERY predicable handling. A lot of it has to do with manual transmission vs automatic. The manual has an advantage because you're able to control wheel spin and use downshifting to help control the car on slippy roads.

My current vehicle, Ford Flex SEL AWD, is very good in the snow/ice with only all seasons but not as predicable as the older "mechanical" AWD systems like the 80's/90's Quattro system.

I find the newer AWD systems in Subaru, Acura, Ford, etc to be a little too "safe". The nanny electronics like traction control can be problematic in certain conditions. I found myself cursing the Flex AWD system a couple times in Dec because it would kill power to the wheels when I needed it most.

[rs4-380]

Given that I have what I would consider a fair bit of experience in the matter, as well as a rather unique combination of vehicles I'll add my 3 cents.

The f350 with all terrains can get through quite a bit due to the high ground clearance and 4wd but without locking diffs once you get stuck you are stuck. Also, with no weight in the rear and no center diff it is NOT what I would consider the ultimate snow vehicle as higher speed driving with lots of crap on the road does not inspire confidence.

I've had the s5 in the snow with the stock Dunlop max performance tires. It goes fine but does not stop or turn.

The a6 has Dunlop winter sports on it and Goes through just about anything. I have literally plowed with it through 16 inches of new snow on my driveway. In low speed, getting stuck situAtions, the only thing that holds it back is the ground clearance. The only high speed situations I have puckered at are at highway speeds diving in unplowed lanes and hitting windrows and/or deeper ruts. Again, the lack of ground clearance hurts it here, as does the lack of any stability control to keep the back end from waggling to much.

I've also got Dunlop snows on the q5 and IMO this is the best combination. Awd, snow tires, ground clearance without being top heavy, stability control and a manageable wheelbase. It may give up a bit of extraction potential to a 4wd with lockers in low speed situations but it will demolish that setup in bad conditions at speed.

The Last, relatively rare, option for me is the van. Rear engine, viscous Awd, with a manual transmission, locking rear, ground clearance, and no electronic aids. For fun in the snow this is the clear winner. With near 50/50 weight distribution it's actually much more controllable and predictable then one would imagine. The only thing that drops it from the my top spot is the futile attempt to coax heat out of it in the winter as well as the fact that road salt loves it like a fat girl to cake.

[RottyB5A2]

for me it depends on need or want. To this day I swear by my old Audi 5000q and a good set of snow tires. That's for local and mountain roads. Now, the Outback with Nokians and a manual transmission does perfect going up and down the windy, steep mountain road in heavy snow and/or icey conditions. Ice is ice unless you have studded tires and even then I have to wonder how good you'll do.

[unintended acceleration]

Something with a rear biased diff, like the Quattro sport diff in the S4. I'd take that over any other system for its handling and yaw advantages, and for the really bad stuff I would just throw some proper tires on it for the winter months.

However, my wife's CX-5 is a beast in the snow. I know it may sound like I am off my rocker but I was out last week in 6" + inches of the stuff and I was literally putting the pedal down halfway from a standstill and could not get the tires to spin, it just takes off (relatively speaking). It was the best vehicle I have driven in the snow, it was a huge surprise.

I think it was due to very narrow tires, and low torque to the wheels. I would have to try very hard to get that thing stuck.

[Shomegrown]

ITT: any AWD system I own/have owned is awesome/unstoppable in the snow.

[BsickPassat]

He said Toyos, but didn't specify if they were winter tires or no-seasons. I'm willing to guess they weren't winter tires.

I think that 99% of the OP's traction concerns are the fault of the tires, and that "quartering under acceleration" feeling might be alignment-related. AWD cars, I've found, are pretty sensitive to alignment settings. I aligned our WRX 3 times in the last 2 months before I found a good mix of stability and turn-in. If you have any toe-out at all, especially in the rear, you will feel it in less-than-ideal traction conditions as tires with different levels of traction fight each other for control of the whole car. You really need the toe and thrust angle dialed in tight.

I'm more than pleased with the WRX in low-traction conditions, but it does have Blizzaks so a lot of it is down to tires. I have to try hard to get it to slide, and I have to try really hard to get it stuck. Haven't succeeded yet.

if it's oem toyos... then it's all-season, not the "Observe winter tires".

Can you imagine the direct comparison if studded winterforce tires were used on the OUtback? (yes, winterforce are available in 225/55r17)

[Bakounine]

He said Toyos, but didn't specify if they were winter tires or no-seasons. I'm willing to guess they weren't winter tires.

I think that 99% of the OP's traction concerns are the fault of the tires, and that "quartering under acceleration" feeling might be alignment-related.

Toyo winters (can’t remember the exact model). They are fairly recent, but I find they don’t clear out snow very well and their performance on ice is fair at best.

I did have it aligned a couple months ago, but perhaps it’s not perfect yet. Mind you, this storm was special… Even my snowblower with locked wheels cried for mercy…

Part-time 4WD has come a long way since the Jeep Cherokee days. My Tacoma has a switch on the dash so I can click it in and out of 4WD while moving at any speed in any gear, and it engages instantly. So that's really handy. It allows me to cruise along in a fuel efficient 2WD mode but should I hit a hill or have to come to a stop and then get moving again, I can have instant 4WD on demand.

Other than the switch (which is still not used on some suvs), today’s part time TC’s aren’t much different than the older ones, no? IIRC, a TC similar to Jeep’s Selec Trac (NP242: 2WD, 4WD full time, 4WD part-time, 4WD Low) was (is?) available the 4Runner Limited. I wonder why Toyota never offered it on the Tacoma. The full time option makes it so much more convenient in most situations during winter (dry with snowy/icy patches).

For me it's simple.

Truck: Locked center and rear diffs. I'll sort the rest out with my right foot.

You’re nuts! The Durango came with the NP242HD BTW… easy swap for sure.

I'm loving my 95 Grand Cherokee with the NP242 selec-trac t-case. (4High part-time/full-time & 4LO selectable) and a set of Cooper Weathermaster winters. The thing is glued to the road in Full-Time 4x4 and stops extremely well.

I almost don't want to put the lift kit and 33s on it in the spring. I am hoping it will work reasonably well next winter with a set of Yokohama 32" winters.

That NP242 really sounds like the best of all worlds with its numerous options.

One question for you tough: on full time 4wd, does the rear end need to slip before the front engages? From what I read somewhere, it seems the front gets 50% power all the time in full time 4wd, which is great, compared to similar systems such as GM’s StabiliTrak in Sierras and Silverados which has to lose traction before reacting.

i'm new to the 4/AWD world, but i was thoroughly impressed by the RAV4 (with Dunlop A/Ts) in last week's snow up in VT. several full-size pickups were stuck in the parking lot at Sugarbush, but the little 'yota made it's way out like it was dry.

I don’t know about the older ones, but the latest RAV4 disengages 4wd at 30 mph. That’s what made me chose the Subie over the Toy.

The best performing AWD system I've used is the older Audi Quattro system with electronic locking rear diff.

Too bad selectable lockers on cars are not available anymore. Pretty handy to get unstuck.

Given that I have what I would consider a fair bit of experience in the matter, as well as a rather unique combination of vehicles I'll add my 3 cents.

The f350 with all terrains can get through quite a bit due to the high ground clearance and 4wd but without locking diffs once you get stuck you are stuck. Also, with no weight in the rear and no center diff it is NOT what I would consider the ultimate snow vehicle as higher speed driving with lots of crap on the road does not inspire confidence.

The Last, relatively rare, option for me is the van. Rear engine, viscous Awd, with a manual transmission, locking rear, ground clearance, and no electronic aids. For fun in the snow this is the clear winner. With near 50/50 weight distribution it's actually much more controllable and predictable then one would imagine. The only thing that drops it from the my top spot is the futile attempt to coax heat out of it in the winter as well as the fact that road salt loves it like a fat girl to cake.

The F350 must be part time, I assume? So that means the both axles are actually locked together in 4x4, however, a rear selectable locker sure would help. A few hundred pounds of sand bags in the rear would also help for sure…

Any pics of that van? You have a G gear in it (ultra low)? It sure sounds like a lot of fun!

[BsickPassat]

Toyo winters (can’t remember the exact model). They are fairly recent, but I find they don’t clear out snow very well and their performance on ice is fair at best.

if 17", then it's probably the the Observe Garit's... which are a performance winter tire.... and that would be expected, not to perform as well in the deep snow & ice.

the system would have been iirc, the Variable Torque Distribution AWD with rear LSD

[Bakounine]

if 17", then it's probably the the Observe Garit's... which are a performance winter tire.... and that would be expected, not to perform as well in the deep snow & ice.

the system would have been iirc, the Variable Torque Distribution AWD with rear LSD

16''

[Booha1]

Agreed on the older quattros with the Torsen awd. Throw a set of snowies on there and you've got it made.

The locking diff is a nice feature also...very helpful in certain situations.

[Jh0104]

this:

[bmann]

Part-time 4WD has come a long way since the Jeep Cherokee days. My Tacoma has a switch on the dash so I can click it in and out of 4WD while moving at any speed in any gear, and it engages instantly. So that's really handy. It allows me to cruise along in a fuel efficient 2WD mode but should I hit a hill or have to come to a stop and then get moving again, I can have instant 4WD on demand.

Our 1986 Nissan Stanza Wagon 4WD had a button on top of the stick shift that allowed you to go into 4-wheel-drive on the fly.

Random Google image:

[nicetry]

My A6 Avant is a blast in the winter, Torsen gets you through anything and mad dorifto if you choose as well.

[SVTDanny]

8.25" rear or Dana35? Get yourself a cheap locking rear differential - makes for a lot of fun...

I actually haven't looked. I'll probably get tetanus from getting close enough to the underside to check.

LOL @ "My /insert AWD car here/ is unstoppable in the snow*"

*Plowed main roads.

Ground clearance is king in real snow.

[rs4-380]

The F350 must be part time, I assume? So that means the both axles are actually locked together in 4x4, however, a rear selectable locker sure would help. A few hundred pounds of sand bags in the rear would also help for sure…

Yep, manual transfer case, manual hubs and everything (no buttons). And yes, if it was my winter daily I would definitely weight up the back.

Any pics of that van? You have a G gear in it (ultra low)? It sure sounds like a lot of fun!

Yes, all syncros came with the 4+1 gelande/granny gear transmission. It comes in really handy in traffic.

[Wodan23]

98 Audi A6 avant. C4 Body style. Locking Diff. I have had a few subaru's and Ford Suvs of all shapes and sizes. This thing is by the far the most ridiculous in the snow.



Anddd I rest my case.

[Booha1]

I actually haven't looked. I'll probably get tetanus from getting close enough to the underside to check.

LOL @ "My /insert AWD car here/ is unstoppable in the snow*"

*Plowed main roads.

Ground clearance is king in real snow.

Which is why my 90q is not lowered. I'll never understand why people would negate the best thing about an Audi by "slamming" it. Makes no sense.

[patrikman]

He said Toyos, but didn't specify if they were winter tires or no-seasons. I'm willing to guess they weren't winter tires.

I think that 99% of the OP's traction concerns are the fault of the tires, and that "quartering under acceleration" feeling might be alignment-related. AWD cars, I've found, are pretty sensitive to alignment settings. I aligned our WRX 3 times in the last 2 months before I found a good mix of stability and turn-in. If you have any toe-out at all, especially in the rear, you will feel it in less-than-ideal traction conditions as tires with different levels of traction fight each other for control of the whole car. You really need the toe and thrust angle dialed in tight.

I'm more than pleased with the WRX in low-traction conditions, but it does have Blizzaks so a lot of it is down to tires. I have to try hard to get it to slide, and I have to try really hard to get it stuck. Haven't succeeded yet.

You never specified what tires you ran on the Outback.

If you put an equivalent tire to the studded winter force, things probably would be different.

The issue is likely the VDC system. I've experienced the same thing many times during heavy accumulation or extreme ice. Turn it off and enjoy the weather.

[Shomegrown]

I actually haven't looked. I'll probably get tetanus from getting close enough to the underside to check.

LOL @ "My /insert AWD car here/ is unstoppable in the snow*"

*Plowed main roads.

Ground clearance is king in real snow.

Yep, watch me get stuck/high sided at 3:10.



Although with lighter snow, I've driven my S4 and my Saabaru/WRX in snow as deep as the headlights.

[leakslikasieve]

I used to own a 98 XJ with a NP231 t-case (command trac part time). I loved its off road ability, but i always wished it had the full time option of the NP242 (select trac). A buddy of mine had a really rotted out XJ with the 242 so I swapped that in. The 242 is a weaker case, but is far superior to the 231 for normal everyday/snow/rain use. The one thing i disliked about the 231 was that I would run rwd in 2-3" of snow and spin, but if i switched to 4wd, the front axles would bind around turns. It was annoying. That was the reason i switched to the 242. I had no issues with either, but for standard snow use, the 242 is better.

I also previously owned a mazdaspeed 6 with dunlop m3's and the thing was an utter beast. You had to know how the awd system really worked, and you had to get on the gas through turns to get the rear lsd to do its job and keep the tail out, otherwise it would understeer terribly in the snow. The system is variable from 100:0 to 50:50, but it is almost never 100 fwd. The only time the speed 6 is fwd is in parking lot conditions, and the ecu puts 100% to the front to avoid axle binding. The system also had internal control setting, tarmac, snow, sport based on the throttle, steering, yaw sensors etc. I have driven that speed 6 through 3 ft of snow from a stop. It was a beastly vehicle in the snow and I felt more stable in that then I ever did in the jeep.

My next awd car with more then likely be an a4 quattro. I would love to feel the difference between the quattro and the ms6's system.

[Pf3il]

I don’t know about the older ones, but the latest RAV4 disengages 4wd at 30 mph. That’s what made me chose the Subie over the Toy.

the first-gen RAV4 from 1994 to 2000 had a real full-time 4WD setup. only the 5-speeds have a dashboard button for locking the center diff. the automatics get stuck with a viscous center diff.

obviously the front and rear differentials are open, but it seems possible to swap in the Celica All-Track LSD guts.