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Turbo Swap on an 84 GTI Vr6

16K views 100 replies 40 participants last post by  daunicorn 
#1 ·
People were making comments about not much going on, so I thought I would post up some of my build progress as it happens, but first I have to catch you guys up…
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We will start with the how the builder of the car had it, and some of you might have seen it for sale on vortex:




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The bay was actually pretty clean at one point in time:

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Needles to say the car moved on and made it St louis where this happened…


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In this stage in the cars life it made it from Pennsylvania to St louis then sold to a different person in St Louis, and then to a guy up in Springfield Illinois. After a number of potential problems with the car causing it to change hands many times it ended up with a set of d2 coil overs installed improperly and a bad slave cylinder swapped out for another bad slave cylinder, oh and a crazy misfire issue.
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Within a short while of getting the car home, I had the body kit off, the dash removed, a bracket made to hold up the gauge cluster, the slave cylinder replaced, and a couple grounds fixed. The next issue was the odd misfire, after some reading, and realizing a miss reading oil pressure gauge was actually wrong, was saying 60-70psi at idle, probably was closer to 10-15 psi cold, I got the pan off to replace the oil pump. Not sure how many of you have dealt with mk3 vr cars, but the engine sits rather low, with quite a bit of pan just hanging down there for potential trouble. Well in a lowered rabbit it sits very very low and the pan had smacked the ground a few times before it made it into my hands, and actually smashed the pan up into the oil pick up enough to crunch the oil pickup, and cause the pump to not pull in enough oil, and cause low oil pressure. Swapped a new pump in, massaged the pan significantly and put it all back together and the rabbit was alive and running well!
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It didn't last too long, within a few weeks of dealing with the super stiff suspension of the coil overs I decided to pull them off to adjust the ride height, which is separately adjustable from the spring perch height. Well the installer didn't know this and had cranked about 2" worth of threads of preload into the rear springs to get the ride height he wanted and basically made a solid suspension in the rear. Here is a picture of the car parked on a 2" pile of gravel:


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Well that got adjusted out and the ride height got set to eliminate rear tire rub:

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So the car was becoming more and more road worthy and getting driven more and more, so the 4 point harnesses that weren't installed properly were swapped out for some later model cabrio 3 point harnesses with new style buckles to match the late model cabrio seats that were in the car.
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Then the master cylinder failed… it only took bleeding the slave a dozen times to realize that it was holding pressure and then it would push back through the seal on the master into the reservoir. Well I converted it from the mk3 GTI to the passat one I got a junkyard and was very happy, until the banjo broke off… Well, back to the drawing board. I milled out a slip fit style banjo and got it installed the system working again, and it worked way better! until the welds on the bracket that the builder installed started to break…. but it still held, just popped every time you pushed the pedal, well I went and realigned everything and got it to work just a little better, but sadly the damage was done and the bracket just kept popping…
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By this time the car had the exhaust upgraded to 2.5" the rear track was widened with some spacer blocks under the stub axles and I was happy with how the car looked and performed, and took it autocrossing and had a blast with it.
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Then the next big one, driving down 291 in Indepenence at about 45 I was compression breaking into 3rd to slow down for a red light and I heard a few pings and pops and the clanking and clattering behind me, well I just knew the axle bolts holding it to the cup on the transmission had all broken off. I managed to cost to a parking lot and sure enough I had 1 good axle and one hanging from the wheel. A few zip ties later and a tow rope and I drug it home. Well, I swapped in a new axle and did an 02J shifter swap and took it for a drive. The new shifter was amazing and I was estatic about how great it shifted! But sadly I got home and the car was just leaking transmission fluid like crazy… Got underneath the car to find this:


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Some JB weld and a popcan later and the whole was patched and fluid was back in and the car was on the ground, and drove it that way for about 2 months.
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Well times change, and you want more power, and I didn't want the fuel cell in the back anymore, and I wanted to fix the clutch issue, and the new brake master cylinder I installed started to act up, and then the tune started getting bad as it got colder, running rich and just all around sluggish, and it started pushing oil into the intake pretty bad… Then the nail in the coffin, the thermostat housing started leaking, and the timing chain cover started leaking, and the chains finally got noisy enough that I decided to pull it all out!


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This post is getting alittle long winded, Ill start in on the next post…
 
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#30 ·
Ok guys, moving along slowly...

Started in on tearing up the wiring:


Then working on getting the last jumpers wired up on the Megasquirt tonight then will test and assemble it.

But, I got a few more milling things done for the car, and I am getting excited!!

To start off, I wanted to change up the thermostat housing, wasn't really a fan of the plastic parts, and wanted to clean up the look for the bay, so I got to drafting and milling:


I decided to make it work with 2 weld in -12an bungs so I can connect right onto it with some swivel fittings:



On the bottom side I made an ovaled area for the crack pipe, I am actually going to cut it down and weld it to this plate, since I have a billet one, and that is much easier than trying to aim and mill the correct angle and try and get an o ring to seat :p


I did have a blow out on the part where it got a little too thin, but it will be covered by the weld so I'm not worried.

Next, the intake manifold!!!

Well as my pictures showed I am going with an ITB set up, I'm planning to run 1.75" aluminum pipe for the intake runners and building a billet base and upper plate to hold it all together.

Well, I got the base milled, the base houses the transitions from the head to the round ports, and was a very challenging and fun process. Part of it had to be milled from the top and part of it from the bottom, and lining the part up after flipping it was quite challenging, but I got it close enough to make me happy :)

I'll start with some in process pictures, sorry for the blurry pictures, but here is my mill and garage corner :p

And a shot of the bottom being milled:

And a quick shot of the ports before finishing:


And here is the finished product:





You might see on the ports for the short cylinders there is a harsh edge that couldn't be reached from the top or the bottom, and it will be gotten to with the die grinder before too long. Also it looking like harsh ridges on the transitions from the mill, but they are almost smooth to the touch, but might still get polished up before too long as well.

I have to figure out my throttle cable next, then I will be getting to making the top plate. Hopefully the 180 pipes will be in this week too and I might be able to get started in on the assembly of the intake manifold!!!

Chris
 
#31 ·
Is anybody still looking at this? I feel abandoned, left on the side of the road to die...

Did you guys not like the intake base? I tried really hard on it in hopes you guys would like it :p

Anyway, as this is just as much for me to keep track of my project as it is for you to follow, I have made progress.

I have been milling like crazy this last week, I cleaned up around the mill and have already produced this:


I also managed to get the megasquirt finished and in its box closed up and ready for cam and crank potentiometer tuning then car tuning... So wiring harness will hopefully make some progress here soon too.

Anyway, I got the tubing for the intake runners, and got a little jig milled up for cutting it, so when I get time this week aluminum welding will be happening and stuff will be looking more finished and complete :)

So here is the upper flange of my intake, with some throttle bodies sitting in it of course :p



I am currently milling new cable pull eccentrics so hopefully I can get the couple holes drilled and tapped it welded up and then the cables installed!! so the throttles will open with one actuation as they should!

Anyway, sad its so quiet in here, hope you all haven't left me, I want this car done soon, so I will hopefully be kicking into high gear and getting some stuff done very soon!

Chris
 
#37 ·
Thanks! You and me both! I am driving my subaru and I miss the VR exhaust note, and the power potential this will have :p


Killing it. Wish I had a mill and the software/knowledge to do this sort of stuff. Sky is the limit! Keep it up you've got some serious steam! :heart:
I converted the mill to cnc myself, and other than some classes in drafting I learned everything else on the internet, thanks for the complements though, getting to see the parts come off the mill and things fit really helps motivate to get the rest of the stuff done :)


Love the custom milling for the TBs, they look to be a pretty decent size too compared to what most people are using from motorcycles. keep up the awesome work!
Thanks, when you think about the fact that Triumph ran over 1000cc's on 3 cylinders each throttle body had to have some size to it to breath :) Sadly I messed up and didn't get bigger pipe for the fact that the taper on these bores is so significant, so the system is gonna be choked a little by the 1.75" runners in the boost plenum...


I'm really liking the Tstat housing. been waiting for >2 years for gruvenparts parts to make a billet one, lol.

where are you going to put the thermostat?
Currently I am remote mounting the thermostat because of my rear mounted radiator, but I am thinking I can redesign this housing to have a small block chevy thermostat and housing on it, we will see...


x2 :thumbup:
Thanks :)

Ok guys, when I finish up work, I am making a run to the metal supplier for a couple more pieces and then hopefully tomorrow I will go welding :)

Chris
 
#40 ·
Ok, first off, I got a phone call from my uncle, the welder, today, and he said the intake is done! I will be picking it up tomorrow hopefully, they are calling for another 4-6" of snow which might change my plans, but I also really want to get my intake :)

Anywho, to get back to the progress that has happened....

Lets start with what got welded up this week:


The thermostat housing is back to sitting in place and ready for lines to be made when the engine goes back in next!

Here is what the underside looks like with the heater core inlet and radiator in and out, when the radiator is mounted and seat rails are in these lines will also get built:



Next is the new water distribution block where the old thermostat housing used to be. I will be modifying and welding my billet crackpipe to this:




It has 2 -12an fittings welded to it with 90s on each of them, they tuck right under the intercooler and will run right up to the new thermostat housing:


Then the next thing that snuck on me that needed to be made, was throttle eccentrics, I will be running one throttle cable to the main set of 3 throttle blades, then run a cable to the slave set of 3 throttles. Since this changed inches of cable travel required to pull the slave set I needed to make a new throttle cable eccentric for the one set. Then I decided to make a new on for the main throttles that accounted for the fact that my pedal box has a longer cable pull length than the motorcycle cable was meant to travel.

So here is the pedal driven set of throttle bodies with their new eccentric:




And here is the slave set of throttles with their eccentric, ignore the pink color, its paint that the metal supplier uses on the ends of their stocked material:




A lot of the billet parts will be getting anodized, I feel these parts will require it, they will be very likely to gall up the cables otherwise.

Hopefully in the next few days I will have pictures of the intake and possibly have the ports cleaned back up and test fit on the motor! Also within the first of the week should have the throttle cable assembly done too!

Checking things off the list slowly but steadily...

Chris
 
#43 ·
Ok, got the intake back, and because I didn't mill things as good as I could have there are a few little things that didn't line up as well as they could have, but Im just very excited to have it on the engine :)

You will have to ignore my crappy port work, I don't have very many die grinder bits, and I am not good at it at all, it just goes too fast!! then the aluminum likes to gall the bit...

Anyway time for pictures:




And here is a shot of the main throttle cable pull:


And one of the slave throttle bodies pull:


And here are a few shots of it through its motion:





And last but not least, after I got a glove on, the aluminum has some sharp edges!


Hope you guys enjoy, I think I am gonna test fit the motor in the bay tonight with the intake on and see how much room I have for the boost plenum.

Chris
 
#46 ·
Thanks! There is more tweaking to be done, but it is getting very close to being fully operational I think :) I like that both sets of blades have their own throttle position sensor so I can tweak the cable to adjust how each one is getting the cable pulling on them :)


What kind of mill/cnc setup is that? I run a mazak. And what software are you using?
I am running a Sieg x3 that I bought through Grizzly, I used a CNC fusion conversion kit for the ballscrews and motor mounts. I made some extension plates and order longer ball screws to get some extra travel out of it. And then I got a Gecko G540 controller and laid out my own control box and ran all the wiring and home switches. Then I use Mach3 to run the mill itself, and VisualMill for the CAM work, and I draft everything in Autodesk Inventor. I love the set up, but the mill is a little bit of a light weight, Im having some issued with the mill moving around on the table with the new flycutter I got :( and the intake base is about the width limit I can work with, so I am very happy I went with the longer ball screws :)

Now off to the shop for test fitting :)

Chris
 
#48 ·
You and me both :) I just got the engine back in and I have less than 4" from the throttles to the back of the grill, its gonna be challenging to get the top part to fit the way I was hoping, and I think I am just gonna have to leave out length compensation this time, but I still think it will turn out to be a good set up :)

I'd have to the say the rabbit looked pretty happy to have the engine back in:


I was pretty happy too :)


It is a very close fit:


After I got the engine in I went ahead and built the coolant lines:




I'm still very anxious to see how the car handles these little coolant lines.

Chris
 
#52 ·
I didn't do a very good job showing what I was planning for the radiator, its kidna confusing.

The billet coolant housing on the rain tray is actually where the thermostat is mounted, the hoses inside the cabin, under the rain tray, are what will be running to a full sized aluminum mk2 style radiator mounted in the rear of the car. There will be ducting made from under the car where the spare tire used to be, and then vented done around the license plate area.

Here is a picture I just took of the radiator sitting in place:


And one looking down from the trunk:


As for the airflow to the ITBs they are gonna get a kinda cramped boost plenum, but hopefully, since they are sucking the air in all on their own the flow shouldn't be too bad.

Chris
 
#59 ·
Thanks, keep watching, I hope it keeps going where it is headed :)

:thumbup::thumbup:
Thanks for the support!

:screwy: this is def diff.
Can't argue with that statement at all, but what in life isn't worth trying someway different...

May I suggest some kind of plexi glass cover on the intake . Seeing those throttle bodies in action would be killer
:) love the i/c mount keep it up..
Working on that currently :) The mill is working day and night, and I got the 3d printer out to try some things on, we will see how it all comes together :)

Crazy build!

I see you mention a lot about Fieros. You on Pennocks?
Yes sir, under the same user name, I have done 2 3800sc swaps, helped with another 2, wired up a 3.4tdc swap, done a 4 speed auto swap, and a 2.8 swap in an 84, I dabble a bit in them :)


Where his intake he is actually losing hp. Dyno proven on a mk3, I'd imagine in a much smaller space it'll be worse. There's another guy in the mk3 forum with a harlequin that has the same ic setup. I think its def different but diff isn't always nec. Good. I see this being a heat soaked cluster****.
Like I said def different I'm just baffled on why certain things are so complicated.
I'm really not sure why I didn't pick you up as a nay sayer before this, but I was expecting them to come out of the works way before now so I can't complain. So lets see what I can pick apart on this:

Ok, you say HP is lost on short runner intakes? or ITBs specifically? Or are you suggesting my plenum doesn't have enough air volume?

Next, I have an issue, and with you vr6 rocco you are going to too, traction is a bitch at low rpms, so what I did is take the fact that short runner intakes are known for reducing low end torque and I applied it constructively :)

The other issue I have, and Im not sure how far along you are in the swap, but I don't think you will quite have the issue is space is tight in front of the intake. Stuffing a fmic and a radiator, and a custom intake between the grill and the engine block without interfering with the alternator or crackpipe or transmission mount isn't easy. So I again got constructive, put the radiator and all the heat that comes from it in the back, helps a little with weight too, then put the intercooler in a large airflow area that didn't have anything else going on, actually I think it is quite a bit farther away from my turbo and exhaust than my subaru and they do pretty good with making consistent power, but time will tell on the heat soaking.

And the last things I say is in reference to the things being complicated. I need challenges in life, I get way to bored with the every day done it before things. The more complicated I can make the car, and actually end up with something that works the more I enjoy it. Also I bought and built this mill and haven't really put it to use, so I felt it was due time and its more fun making things on it and getting it all to work out.

So to casuallywreckless, I say good luck on your vr6 swap and I hope you can learn what not to do by watching my build, because it is getting a we bit too complicated :)

Chris

Also I will try and get an update here pretty soon, been milling motor mount spacers for some people, but I have put some more of the interior together and am starting in on the brakes.
 
#57 ·
Where his intake he is actually losing hp. Dyno proven on a mk3, I'd imagine in a much smaller space it'll be worse. There's another guy in the mk3 forum with a harlequin that has the same ic setup. I think its def different but diff isn't always nec. Good. I see this being a heat soaked cluster****.
Like I said def different I'm just baffled on why certain things are so complicated.
 
#60 · (Edited)
I used a corrado rad and angled it a Rocco is a bit longer so I could still fit a front mount in front if I ever decided to boost it. IMO its useless to boost a Vr mk1 but to each their own. Have you Ever done over a 100mph in a stock mk1? its pretty sketchy let alone with the extra weight. which is a lot in your case using the mk3 subframe method. I'm not a nay sayer I'm just simply stating while your fab work appears to be top notch some things I'm not entirely envisioning working out to great. A Vr on a hot summer day In pa will typ. Run an oil temp of 200-220 deg. I just see everything getting a bit warm under the bonnet of a mk1 more so than a mk3. As for the "top" mount ic. I'd rec a slim fan on it to draw air either from the road or hood side. I'm not downing what your doing at all. I'm all for different, it just A Lot goin on for my taste.
As for what not to do cause its complicated:rolleyes: I work in a steel mill and have access to cnc's, lathes, ect. I chose not to because there is no point for me personally. I'm happy with keepin **** simple so its not a headache when something does break.
Traction wise ;) LSD is def nec, I have upper n lower tie bars, seam welding currently, I also plan to weld the control arms so they don't flex as much. I'm still on the fence of widened rado steelies or what though... I want something wide to hook up but still flow and look good. I currently removed my motor and trans for a mild shave and wire tuck. And to spruce up the motor a bit for n/a but the mods are going to be supported for if I chose boost it'll be sc.
 
#62 ·
I will respect you for at least having merit to what you are saying :)

As for oil temps, yes my vr rabbit ran in the 200-210 last summer when I drove it, but I didn't run a fan on it 99% of the time so I wasn't too shocked, or too worried, it means they can handle it.

About 90 is the best I have done in my rabbit, mostly because in street driving and autocross there is no point to go past those speeds in either place. We don't have a local drag strip and I much prefer to put a turn or two in my track :) So I go back to the HP, I was disappointed in the power of a 180ish hp vr rabbit, it would scoot, but just not enough for me, Im used to driving a 8lb/hp fiero daily and the 11.6lb/hp the rabbit had was lacking, so with 350hp I think I will be back to enjoying the pull of the rabbit.

The intercooler is set up for a puller fan underneath it, and I plan to build a shroud that will direct 95% of the grill opening right to the intercooler, if its enough airflow to keep a vr cool, its enough to cool 5-10psi :)

As for too much going on, it is very much a to each their own, I had to leave out a few things on this build for the time being to get it on the road faster :)

Traction is going to be the worst enemy of any mk1 vr, sadly I come from the fiero world where LSDs do little to nothing so I don't praise them like the holy grail like some of the other car communities do, not saying you are more just a comment about the world. But a stiff chassis should help a lot for keeping things planted, and I also plan to get some seam welding done on the car before too long. On the tires and wheels situation, I am running 195s and if you didn't just punch it to see the tires spin they could hook and get the car rolling quite quickly if you played the throttle right.

Now on the boost comment, why would you go SC over turbo on a vr in a mk1? There is little to no room for anything up front or to the side of the motor to fit a centrifugal, and if you go roots your just gonna get more unusable torque. BUT there is tons of room back there for a turbo :)

All I can say is thank you for watching my thread, and letting me think a little more on some of the things I am doing on the car, if you see anything else specifically that you don't think makes sense let me know, you might save me some headaches down the road :)

God I so want those ITBS lol
Let me get this car done and do some testing on an NA car, and make version 2 of it I have come up with, and if all goes as planned I might look into selling them :)

Chris
 
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