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    Thread: Post your verified spring rates here

    1. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      03-08-2003 09:35 PM #76
      ThreadFart


      [Modified by Surf Green, 9:37 PM 3-8-2003]

    2. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      03-08-2003 09:36 PM #77
      Since SRS is in this thread,
      What are Shine Lite spring rates for a Mk4 TDI Wagon?
      I want it a little stiffer, and linear, and not dropped alot.

    3. 03-27-2003 06:54 PM #78
      quote:
      MK IV VR6 Neuspeed Sport: 220(5) Front and 160 Rear
      MK IV VR6 H+R Sport are 228 Front and 160 Rear
      MK IV VR6 RPI Are 225 Front and 170 Rear
      MK IV VR6 Neuspeed Race 280 Front and 220 Rear
      MK IV H+R Race are the same as Neuspeed Race. +/- 5 pounds.
      MK IV Bilstein PSS9 Coilover 350 Front and 300 rear .... ouch ... (I have these)
      I did a Little research and a whole lot of E-mailing. RPI Said there's were almost identical too Neuspeed's, although 10lb stiffer rear. I Emailed Neuspeed and they emailed the rates back too me the same day. H+R's I got from Denon, and are almost identical too Neuspeed's because they (H+R) use to Manufacture for them, but no longer. Neuspeed used their rates and found another manufacture .... If not totally correct let me know and I'll edit them, though I'm 98% Sure. Happy hunting, The Shine's are PERFECTLY matched to Bilstein damper's valving from what I can gather. I need a life. - Darren
      hey just for your information, the H&R Race spring rates are 230# front and 175# rear. just to correct you. im sure of it.

    4. 04-08-2003 09:54 AM #79
      All professionnaly race fwd cars in NA usually run a front to rear factor of 2-3 to 2-5 rate factor...my cars use 800f and 1200r...most acuras (realtime and all) range from 750f-1100r to 1000f to 3000r. But like Dick said you can't compare those set up to a cross-over car(street/track) theres too much involved more then spring rate. Caster will usually works great (up to a point and depending on suspension geometry) on any light nose car (not a VR6) lol



      [Modified by Stephane Trahan, 7:07 AM 4-8-2003]

    5. 04-08-2003 11:51 AM #80
      Yea I think for the street, a "higher end" damper setup could run the same all around, but probably a tad heavier in the front. I plan to go 325f/250r linear. I am waiting to hear from a friend at truechoice after he sets his custom setup together and see what it feels like, but he's going pretty hardcore for the street, as its also an autox car. I've got some time though, so i'll see. And you can always swap springs out

    6. 04-18-2003 12:03 PM #81
      does anyone have the rates for:
      a3 vr6 versions
      H&R OE's
      Neuspeed SofSports

    7. 04-18-2003 08:40 PM #82
      quote:
      MK IV VR6 Neuspeed Sport: 220(5) Front and 160 Rear
      MK IV VR6 H+R Sport are 228 Front and 160 Rear
      MK IV VR6 RPI Are 225 Front and 170 Rear
      MK IV VR6 Neuspeed Race 280 Front and 220 Rear
      MK IV H+R Race are the same as Neuspeed Race. +/- 5 pounds.
      MK IV Bilstein PSS9 Coilover 350 Front and 300 rear .... ouch ... (I have these)

      Are H&Rs Progressive or Linear, if Progressive do we know the range of them? What about Nuespeed?

    8. 04-29-2003 07:15 PM #83
      Quote, originally posted by dpak4eva »
      <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>MK IV VR6 Neuspeed Sport: 220(5) Front and 160 Rear
      MK IV VR6 H+R Sport are 228 Front and 160 Rear
      MK IV VR6 RPI Are 225 Front and 170 Rear
      MK IV VR6 Neuspeed Race 280 Front and 220 Rear
      MK IV H+R Race are the same as Neuspeed Race. +/- 5 pounds.
      MK IV Bilstein PSS9 Coilover 350 Front and 300 rear .... ouch ... (I have these)
      I did a Little research and a whole lot of E-mailing. RPI Said there's were almost identical too Neuspeed's, although 10lb stiffer rear. I Emailed Neuspeed and they emailed the rates back too me the same day. H+R's I got from Denon, and are almost identical too Neuspeed's because they (H+R) use to Manufacture for them, but no longer. Neuspeed used their rates and found another manufacture .... If not totally correct let me know and I'll edit them, though I'm 98% Sure. Happy hunting, The Shine's are PERFECTLY matched to Bilstein damper's valving from what I can gather. I need a life. - Darren<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
      hey just for your information, the H&R Race spring rates are 230# front and 175# rear. just to correct you. im sure of it.

      Let's say one of you two is right ....... then I read in a magazine from H&R (!) that the Race springs are 50% stiffer than the Sport springs....... So, which data is correct? Also ...
      "MK IV VR6 H+R Sport are 228 Front and 160 Rear"
      I had those and then replaced them with Shine F225 and R180. According the the data posted, the Front H&R Sport and the Shine are 3 lb different only! Well, I will completely disagree, because I had both springs in my hands for few minutes and the Shine front (225) is significantly stiffer than the suppoused 228 Frong H&R Sport....... Something somewhere is wrong.

    9. 05-17-2003 04:04 AM #84
      Quote, originally posted by pyce &raquo;
      Let's say one of you two is right ....... then I read in a magazine from H&R (!) that the Race springs are 50% stiffer than the Sport springs....... So, which data is correct? Also ...
      "MK IV VR6 H+R Sport are 228 Front and 160 Rear"
      I had those and then replaced them with Shine F225 and R180. According the the data posted, the Front H&R Sport and the Shine are 3 lb different only! Well, I will completely disagree, because I had both springs in my hands for few minutes and the Shine front (225) is significantly stiffer than the suppoused 228 Frong H&R Sport....... Something somewhere is wrong.

      Shine's linear, so feels much stiffer than progressive H&R on initial load.

    10. 05-17-2003 01:19 PM #85
      Quote, originally posted by alexb75 &raquo;
      Shine's linear, so feels much stiffer than progressive H&R on initial load.

      Not enough ....... the coil diameter is visibly thicker on Shine. Looks almost like 20% thicker, mabe even more ........ And I had both on my car too, for quiet some time. Even after the initial load, H&R Sport is not any near the Shine spring. I really doubt the numbers of H&R ....... But please, do not get it personaly. I am just expressing thoughts

    11. 05-17-2003 02:29 PM #86
      Quote, originally posted by pyce &raquo;
      Not enough ....... the coil diameter is visibly thicker on Shine. Looks almost like 20% thicker, mabe even more ........ And I had both on my car too, for quiet some time. Even after the initial load, H&R Sport is not any near the Shine spring. I really doubt the numbers of H&R ....... But please, do not get it personaly. I am just expressing thoughts

      H&R is a reputable company, I doubt Shine numbers more than H&Rs, how many springs do they sell compared to H&R?! Also, people who have tried Nuespeed (with same rating) say they are almost indentical to H&R. Maybe Shine numbers must be higher then!

    12. 05-17-2003 02:57 PM #87
      Alex, I agree, H&R has reputation, BUT what they did with the Sport springs is providing a product that gives to the client a moderate compromise between the "lower-loocks-better" and some handling improvement over stock...... Shine provided springs that optimise handling while not being in concern about how the car will look like after taking it to the optimal ride (for handling!) height front and rear. Two completely different stories and this is not just because I read this somewhere - it is because I had (have) them both on the same car, one after the other. and most important, I kept even the same shocks, so the comparision is quiet accurate between the two sets....... Anyway, I really do not feel like pushing people, not anymore Matter of fact is, Shine Real Steet springs outhandles H&R Sport springs big time! That said, everyone make their own choises as everyone has different ideas of what his/her car is used for. People make their car realyl low and they say it look better .... Well, no matter how low you go, it will never look better than a Bimmer (again, only me thinks this way ) ....... but you still have a chance to make it handle like a Bimmer, with the right suspension setup which includes the correct ride height to begin with......
      peace...... ciao

    13. 05-17-2003 03:12 PM #88
      Quote, originally posted by pyce &raquo;
      Alex, I agree, H&R has reputation, BUT what they did with the Sport springs is providing a product that gives to the client a moderate compromise between the "lower-loocks-better" and some handling improvement over stock...... Shine provided springs that optimise handling while not being in concern about how the car will look like after taking it to the optimal ride (for handling!) height front and rear. Two completely different stories and this is not just because I read this somewhere - it is because I had (have) them both on the same car, one after the other. and most important, I kept even the same shocks, so the comparision is quiet accurate between the two sets....... Anyway, I really do not feel like pushing people, not anymore Matter of fact is, Shine Real Steet springs outhandles H&R Sport springs big time! That said, everyone make their own choises as everyone has different ideas of what his/her car is used for. People make their car realyl low and they say it look better .... Well, no matter how low you go, it will never look better than a Bimmer (again, only me thinks this way ) ....... but you still have a chance to make it handle like a Bimmer, with the right suspension setup which includes the correct ride height to begin with......
      peace...... ciao

      That is a totally different argument which people have been doing in other threads and have been beating it to death! We were talking about spring rates and if H&R numbers are stated too high, or Shine's stated too low!
      However, me personally for street use, would like to have both moderate drops (1"-1.5") and better handling than stock. I'd like to look at my car and like it. Shine's maybe better for track use and pure handling, but I have been in a couple and they just ride too harsh for street use (mostly because of linear springs), look uneven (fronts higher than rear-looks awful), and have oversteer which could make it a little dangerous if you're not careful. I personally wouldn't be in one for street use, unless I wanna hit the tracks every weekend. I also agree H&R is a compromise there, but the gain compared to stock is MUCH more than gain from an H&R to Shine IMHO.
      Cheers

    14. 05-17-2003 03:19 PM #89
      ok ......
      Now, MODERATOR, please feel free to delete the last few posts we made as it is really waste of space and completely off topic...... Even if the effort was to understand why are the numbers so close, but the real life thw two springs feel completely different....... yeah, it is because H&R are not linear.... but then, they should state two numbers, the initial and the final..... but anyway, go wild with the eraser

    15. 05-17-2003 06:27 PM #90
      Quote, originally posted by pyce &raquo;
      ok ......
      Now, MODERATOR, please feel free to delete the last few posts we made as it is really waste of space and completely off topic...... Even if the effort was to understand why are the numbers so close, but the real life thw two springs feel completely different....... yeah, it is because H&R are not linear.... but then, they should state two numbers, the initial and the final..... but anyway, go wild with the eraser

      [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

    16. Member melman8r's Avatar
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      05-17-2003 10:12 PM #91
      '03 GTI VR6 Shine: 250# front, 190# rear
      My '03 Stock spring rates as tested by Dick Shine 133# front and 148# in the rear.

    17. 05-17-2003 11:54 PM #92
      There was a comment made as to the application of these springs in combination with differeing shocks. Therefore, isn't there also a question of the rates that the shocks/struts bring to this equation (i.e. Koni Adjustables vs Bilstien Sport). What are the rates of these shocks/struts. From what I understand the Bilstien Sports are much stiffer than the Koni's when set moderately. Can anyone provide the specs on these products as well?

    18. 05-18-2003 12:51 AM #93
      AlexB For the record My kit isnt higher in the front! It is perfectly level!!
      The front wheel well is larger! I have measured hundreds of my kits.They are level.
      This kit isnt a race kit and most people report slightly decreased ride or some even say it is better than stock. Few say it is too stiff.It is however sensitive to tire design and pressure.It also comes with a 90 day return guarantee in case anyone doesnt like it! Who else has this? We also offer engineering expertise and develop our kits in the USA for US market cars.We actually measure our springs on a spring rate checker to make sure they are what the manufacturer says they are.
      The rates generally check to 2-3% of calculated rate. The H&R are made in Germany for German market cars and sold in this country without any engineers present at all.I cant even get a straight answer from them about spring rates.
      I have never seen a spring from them measure even close to their claims,and a Porsche independent shop measured them and found the same thing.You can believe H&R if you wish,but I can tell you that I have been building and developing
      sucessful VW suspension parts far longer than H&R (and most other companies)
      have been in existence! A little skepticism is healthy,but it is good to research and get the facts right. If you can get rates from H&R I would like to know.I can only get the clueless sales people. They try but they arent engineers,just salesmen.
      If a company cant tell you the most basic facts,Why would anyone buy their product?It amazes how people are susceptable to slick advertizing.
      Dick Shine

    19. 05-18-2003 02:02 AM #94
      First of all, I never bashed your setup and it's a real handling setup. Just stating facts and they're all true, don't take things personally.
      Front height? Well, at least it looks like it's higher, look at http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=812165 , the guy wants to cut the front springs to make it even!
      I beleive we have German cars and German springs should be a good fit for it. Not too sure about your history compared to H&R, all I know is that they supply to DTM, V8STAR race, Skoda WRC, Ford Rallye Germany WRC, Porsche Motorsport, Volkswagen Beetle Cup and Volkswagen Lupo Cup cars. So, I'd say they are reputable.
      Your comment about not having engineers here in US is correct, but neither does Bilstein or Koni, so you wouldn't buy them because of that
      The only company who advertises here is you. I have never seen any H&R rep or sales person to come over here to defend themselves or advertise. I actually find it disturbing that you don't let people decide on what's a good setup and let your product speak for itself, instead of feeling insecure about every little comment here or there, even when it's not bashing or anything. I acutally was thinking of probably getting a Shine and this really turns me off your product. [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthdown.gif[/IMG]

    20. Member melman8r's Avatar
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      05-18-2003 09:22 AM #95
      Quote, originally posted by alexb75 &raquo;
      First of all, I never bashed your setup and it's a real handling setup. Just stating facts and they're all true, don't take things personally.
      The only company who advertises here is you. I have never seen any H&R rep or sales person to come over here to defend themselves or advertise. I actually find it disturbing that you don't let people decide on what's a good setup and let your product speak for itself, instead of feeling insecure about every little comment here or there, even when it's not bashing or anything. I acutally was thinking of probably getting a Shine and this really turns me off your product. [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthdown.gif[/IMG]

      Two things I can't seem to follow:
      1. Show me an ad that Dick Shine has posted here.
      2. Did Dick accuse you of bashing his setup? No.
      Dick merely states the facts, it's people like yourself that are misinformed. He doesn't have to defend himself, his product speaks for itself. But, I would take it personally if I were him because alot of time and effort has gone into his setup. I recently had a Shine Real Street Kit installed at his shop and they are at the top of their game. He delivers what he promises with a guarantee you just can't beat. You won't find a more honest and knowledge group on this forum. If Shine Racing wanted to make a $, Dick would be selling short shifters and CAIs, but he knows better. There are those who talk Shine, then there's others like myself that DRIVE Shine.


      Modified by melman8r at 10:40 AM 5-18-2003

    21. Member f1forkvr6's Avatar
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      05-18-2003 09:29 AM #96
      Quote, originally posted by alexb75 &raquo;
      First of all, I never bashed your setup and it's a real handling setup. Just stating facts and they're all true ...

      Well, when you stated:
      Quote, originally posted by alexb75 &raquo;
      Shine's maybe better for track use and pure handling, but I have been in a couple and they just ride too harsh for street use (mostly because of linear springs), look uneven (fronts higher than rear-looks awful), and have oversteer which could make it a little dangerous if you're not careful.

      There were a couple of statements that I really can't consider truths:
      Too harsh because of linear springs? Linear springs by themselves do not cause ride quality to be harsh. Dangerous over-steer? In reality it's not hard too get most FWD cars to swing the tail out if you really want to - even on stock suspensions. As for not bashing, .... "looks awful" ... I don't think anyone would take this as a complement, although I don't think you were ever accused of bashing Dick's street solution.
      In the end, if you'll be happiest with another solution - go for it. No one can tell you what is best for you ... folks can only offer opinions about what they believe would be best for your intended purpose. All Dick's post offered, if you go back and re-read it, are some first hand observations and specific facts about different suspension components. Like you, he was "Just stating facts".


      Modified by f1forkvr6 at 9:30 AM 5-18-2003
      No more VW
      ~later~

    22. 05-18-2003 03:23 PM #97
      Alex I was meerly trying o add facts. I am sorry if you took it personal! It certainly wasnt meant that way.I have followed many of your postings and I think you are level headed and good intentioned. I Have talked to Bilstein engineers plenty.
      You can get good Koni info from Truechoice also. Unless I was willing to do a lot of testing I dont buy from companies that dont have engineers to answer questions and help with development.Keep this thread going and I do apoligyze If it sounded negative. BTW I dont bash other products.I try to state just proveable facts and the pros and cons. I would welcome some input from the other vendors,but they dont post.I dont just sell my product .I support and offer advise to all who call, Not just the buyers.In a 4 man shop we have 2 engineers on staff.We are trying really hard to spread technical information so everyone can make the most informed choice.I think everyone here is working to do the same thing.I hope this helps.
      BTW When we measure stock springs or coilovers they always come to within 5% of stated value.You can believe H&R if you wish,Their numbers dont add up however. I have a spreadsheet to display force\displacement curve for progressive springs and They still arent close. I am not saying they have an inferior product.Their reputation speaks for itself! I am saying you cant count on technical support.
      Dick Shine

    23. 05-18-2003 06:53 PM #98
      Fair enough! I actually learned a lot from you Dick right here on Vortex, I don't claim to be an expert in anything, but I do a lot of research and take all comments with a grain of salt.
      Quote, originally posted by SRSVW &raquo;
      I am not saying they have an inferior product.Their reputation speaks for itself! I am saying you cant count on technical support.
      Dick Shine

      That's a fair comment, earlier you came across differently, it sounded like you're putting down H&R. I will personally try to get some answers on spring rates even if I have to call Germany
      Basically, from all the comments here, and experiencing and driving different setups, I've recognized your setup to be one of the well-engineered ones that some thought has gone into it. However, there are other setups which do fine too. It seems that some people here claim Shine or nothing, and I just disagree on that point. Some good setups from other people fit a purpose better than Shine and some Shine setups are WAY better than other setups for another driver. I just don't beleive a perfect setup for everyone and every application is out there.
      Well, it's a beatiful weekend let us all grab a and enjoy our well engineered German cars with WHATEVER setup we have [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] .

    24. 05-18-2003 08:11 PM #99
      Tomorrow i am purchasing a setup from Ground Control..
      The numbers are 500 front
      400 rear..
      With koni's
      Yeah they are the coilover style..
      I will let you all know how well this works..
      BTW i only drive the car on the weekends and autocross / track..
      Should be sweet..

    25. 05-19-2003 10:52 AM #100
      Alex I couldnt have said it better! There is no one right choice for everyone.
      Keep up the postings and I really am interested in info if you get to H&R.
      Dick Shine

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