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    Thread: FWD vs RWD vs AWD

    1. 01-23-2003 08:11 PM #1
      Lets put the wet and snow driving aside.

      On normal well paved road which handles better and why?

      Many claim that RWD is the ultimate to have in a sports car because they like over steer. Others claim FWD wich understeer is much more easier to control. Then their is AWD... some over steer some under steer depending on how the power is split.. best of both worlds? or just an other power sucker?

      and please no bashing each other and no I hate SUV debates please . Be nice


    2. 01-23-2003 08:18 PM #2
      on dry pavement, no dirt, no sand, the only way to go is RWD, its amazing if you can control it. During the summer months i miss my old S10 SS. give it was only 180 hp, but it had silly tq, and the rims were 8 inches wide, tires gave me a contact patch of 9-10 inches, that thing was so much fun.

    3. 01-24-2003 06:09 AM #3
      AWD is the best thing since sliced bread in the winter. (not that sliced bread is particularly applicable to winter driving conditions...)

      FWD plows too much in turns in the winter.

      RWD is just plain fun in the winter.

      oh wait... leave winter out of it you say? RWD. totally.


    4. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 07:08 AM #4
      RWD is generally the best platform for dry weather handling, albeit there are FWD cars that will out handle a RWD car..example...01 ITR-vs-01 Stang GT. but generally rwd is best....almost All the fastest and best handling cars in the world are rwd.

    5. Member IsraelGT's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 07:09 AM #5
      It depends, if you're after safe driving, AWD no matter what the weather is, sure wet & snow make it more obvious but there is always an advantage fto AWD.
      Fun, well that depends mostly on the type of AWD, even in Subaru you can't compare an MPT, VTD or VTD+VDC (all come with Auto) to the regular vc, now even with the vc there many varaiations, like the STI has a Short trac LSD differential where as the WRX uses reg LSD and no LSD in the front, plus the U.S STI will have the DCCD system...
      and if you start to compare other companies like Audi which uses the Qauttro but also the 4Motion, or the Porsche's which is mostly RWD (like the Skyline and 22B).

    6. Member IsraelGT's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 07:13 AM #6
      quote:
      albeit there are FWD cars that will out handle a RWD car..example...01 ITR-vs-01 Stang GT

      its not because it was FWD its because it has a better chassis!! we assume all cars use the same setup and tyres...

      quote:
      but generally rwd is best....almost All the fastest and best handling cars in the world are rwd.

      best for what? my mom? if safety is an issue AWD is better, plus you have very fast cars which use AWD, Lamburgini Murcilego, 911 Turbo, Skyling GT-R, Impreza STI, EVO...


    7. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 07:19 AM #7
      quote:
      its not because it was FWD its because it has a better chassis!! we assume all cars use the same setup and tyres...

      who said it handled better because it was FWD? are you a complete idiot, re-read the post kiddo, i said generally RWD handled better, but not always...an example of this is an ITR and a Mustang GT...


      quote:
      best for what? my mom? if safety is an issue AWD is better, plus you have very fast cars which use AWD, Lamburgini Murcilego, 911 Turbo, Skyling GT-R, Impreza STI, EVO...

      again..are you a complete idiot? can you read....generally RWD is the best handlign on dry pavement...yes there are fast AWD, but guess what..THEE FASTEST ARE ALL almost all RWD like i said....996 GT2 handles better then a 996 Twin Turbo on dry pavment...and is considerably faster then a X50 optioned 996 around nurburgring.

      Nuke asked people not to bash...why must you bash and start an argument where you clearly have no basis to do so?


    8. Member IsraelGT's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 07:39 AM #8
      quote:
      are you a complete idiot

      quote:
      again..are you a complete idiot?

      didn't know this kind of language is allowed, but if this is the way you choose to adress me keep talking to yourself as*****


    9. Member gsrroger's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 08:12 AM #9
      Grassroots Motorsports did a test, where they chose 3 cars classed in D-Stock autocross (although one of them has just been moved to G-Stock) and ran them and compared. They ran them on wet and dry courses. The 3 cars were an RSX Type-S, BMW 330 Ci, and a WRX. These cars are roughly equivalent. The RSX is a little bit lighter, but has less power and torque.

      It's almost a no-brainer that the WRX was fastest in the wet, but it was also fastest in the dry, too. Have to give props to AWD.

      The really suprising thing about the article, though, was that they said the RSX was the most fun. I'm under the impression that this had more to do with the chassis than the fact it was FWD, though.

      That was an interesting article, for sure. But, the fact is that all 3 cars were not quite the same. There are so many factors, it's hard to eliminate them all and just test which drivetrain is the fastest.

      Myself, I like 'em all I just want to autocross RWD is the most fun to me, but autocrossing a FWD is better than not autocrossing at all!


    10. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 08:57 AM #10
      i didnt address you that way, i asked you a question....you are the one who attempted to bash me for what i said...asking me questions that were already answered in my post..but whatever.

    11. Member IsraelGT's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 09:15 AM #11
      If you are inetersted, there is this Test from "Autocar":
      AWD (Impreza GT) Vs. FWD (Pug 306 GTI-6) Vs. Front engined rear drive (M3) Vs. Mid engined rear drive (Lotus Elise ) Vs. Rear engined rear drive (996 C2).
      They AWD is the best solution, no taking into account fun, just performance.

      http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~scoobydoo/imprezaweb/reviews/handling.htm

      quote:
      a properly sorted four-wheel-drive car like the Impreza will blitz any two-wheel-drive rival in virtually any objective handling contest, the incredible realisation being that it does so in this instance with as much - if not more - feel than any of its rivals. That's a truly astonishing result given the quality of the rest of the field.


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      01-24-2003 09:16 AM #12
      IMO I think I like the way an AWD handles best.
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    13. Member PeteS99's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 09:30 AM #13
      http://subaru.com/allwheeldrive/flash/compareAWD/compareAWD.html

      this Subi page shows you the differences in all 3.. in Accelerating, Tight Cornering, Wet Roads and Braking .. pretty neato.


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      01-24-2003 09:35 AM #14
      Handling is more about suspension setup and tires than which end drives the car. most every car comes with understeer dialed into it from the factory, as that's a safer situation for the average driver. Oversteer can be fun, but it's much more dangerous.

      There are good and bad in all types of platforms. You can't say, "if all else is equal" because there aren't going to be any cars out there that you can compare with all else being equal, so you will ALWAYS be at the mercy of how the engineers decided to set the car's suspensions up or the bean counters decided to supply the tires. Which means that it's really a moot question in the real world.

      I have found a test between two equal IMSA cars, based on the same chassis, with the only differnce being the drive wheels:

      http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/test1.htm

      The problem is that this test is from 1988, and suspension setup has progressed considerably since then, and FWD cars work even better than they did at that time.

      Nose heavy cars tend to understeer more, regardless of where their drive wheels are located. Putting on stiffer springs and larger rear swaybars can overcome that (the ITR and SVT Contour are two of a group of FWD cars that have had that done, stock, and are on the ragged edge of oversteer even though they are nose-heavy FWD cars).


    15. 01-24-2003 10:13 AM #15
      after spending two days driving a RWD car with bald tires on snow and ice covered roads, I'm definately a much bigger fan of RWD in the winter than I was before.

    16. Member theevilshiftkey's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 10:39 AM #16
      Grassroots Motorsports just did a comparo test with this question in mind. They ran a WRX (AWD), a BMW 330i (RWD) and an Acrua RSX (FWD) against each other on dry and wet courses with the same tires. Each of these cars has a very similar power-to-weight ratio. The WRX won convincingly on each course despite being nearly 6 inches taller than the Acura, followed by the BMW and very closely by the Acura. It was also noted that the rear wheel drive car was much harder to drive and get consistant times on the wet course, while the AWD and FWD cars were very easy to get consistent times.

      Basically, AWD rules.

      I always plug in USBs right the first time.

    17. 01-24-2003 07:52 PM #17
      quote:
      if safety is an issue AWD is better, plus you have very fast cars which use AWD, Lamburgini Murcilego, 911 Turbo, Skyling GT-R, Impreza STI, EVO...

      For the GTR not exactly...

      It's 100% RWD until the rears lose traction, whereupon it progressively transfers more and more drive to the front wheels.

      Doesn't reallt matter anyway, as the RWD GTST / GTS25T or 25GTT (R32, R33 and R34 respectively) are generally regarded as better handling cars than the GTR...


    18. 01-24-2003 08:02 PM #18
      quote:

      can you read....generally RWD is the best handlign on dry pavement...yes there are fast AWD, but guess what..THEE FASTEST ARE ALL almost all RWD like i said....996 GT2 handles better then a 996 Twin Turbo on dry pavment...and is considerably faster then a X50 optioned 996 around nurburgring.


      Okay you do know that the GT2 also makes more horsepower that the Twin Turbo, right?


    19. Member MartijnGizmo's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 08:14 PM #19
      quote:
      Okay you do know that the GT2 also makes more horsepower that the Twin Turbo, right?

      A 996TT with the X50-option has 450hp, the GT2 has 462. A difference of ~2.5%.....


    20. 01-24-2003 08:27 PM #20
      If you have tons of power, like above 400hp it is easier to have 4-wheels to put it to the pavement. Not to mention that a 1000hp Buggati would be almost unlaunchable if not for AWD.

      Not to say that RWD isn't FUN, it might be the most FUN, but not the best performing.

      I read an article in Car and Driver where Mario Andretti was talking about AWD vs RWD, and he said you might get the fastest lap time with RWD but you would punish the tires a lot more AND you would not consistently have the faster lap, so a 10 lap race AWD is faster even though the fastest lap MIGHT be to the RWD car.

      Remember that if F1 cars were alowed to use AWD they would.

      FWD is for safety and cost reasons not for performance.


    21. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 09:52 PM #21
      X50 996 TT makes 450HP, GT2 makes 458HP...so yeah i know the Gt2 is a tad more powerfull....and is also considerably faster around the ring, like i said.

    22. 01-24-2003 10:33 PM #22
      quote:
      If you have tons of power, like above 400hp it is easier to have 4-wheels to put it to the pavement. Not to mention that a 1000hp Buggati would be almost unlaunchable if not for AWD.

      Not to say that RWD isn't FUN, it might be the most FUN, but not the best performing.

      I read an article in Car and Driver where Mario Andretti was talking about AWD vs RWD, and he said you might get the fastest lap time with RWD but you would punish the tires a lot more AND you would not consistently have the faster lap, so a 10 lap race AWD is faster even though the fastest lap MIGHT be to the RWD car.

      Remember that if F1 cars were alowed to use AWD they would.

      FWD is for safety and cost reasons not for performance.


      nowhere in this post does it address which one handles better.
      BECAUSE..there is no right answer.
      What defines better?
      a better lap time?
      better feeling?
      better adjustability?

      a well driven FR or FF car will serve it up equally to a well driven 4wd anyday.
      You cannot compare different cars like wrx vs 330ci vs ITR because there are too many variables to even list. The fact of the matter is, all formats have their strengths and weaknesses..

      You must choose whichever one you think suits you.
      But if you think just because you have 4wd you will lay the smack down on everyone else, it's just not true.


    23. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 10:47 PM #23
      quote:
      nowhere in this post does it address which one handles better.
      BECAUSE..there is no right answer.
      What defines better?
      a better lap time?
      better feeling?
      better adjustability?

      a well driven FR or FF car will serve it up equally to a well driven 4wd anyday.
      You cannot compare different cars like wrx vs 330ci vs ITR because there are too many variables to even list. The fact of the matter is, all formats have their strengths and weaknesses..

      You must choose whichever one you think suits you.
      But if you think just because you have 4wd you will lay the smack down on everyone else, it's just not true.


      This is the best post on this thread so far....all so very true...you get . there is no best...some do things better then others.....a lot of ppl here think AWD is superior...but it isnt....under certin circumstances it is, but the same holds true for fwd and rwd. the fact that AWD weighs more and puts less power down to the wheels(more drivetrain loss) makes me want to opt for RWD, but then again...AWD cars are in my opinion the best all arounders...as in all weather.....which is why i will be buying one as a beater . but i will still have me a RWD for track days.


      [Modified by a2a4raddo, 9:47 PM 1-24-2003]


    24. 01-24-2003 10:50 PM #24
      What about how AWD doesnt launch as quick because it will burn the clutch?

      I saw it on a top gear comparison of the zonda pagani and murcialago.
      This might not really matter because these cars are higher powered than most.

      edit i mean pagani zonda.


      [Modified by Dilbert2, 3:28 AM 1-25-2003]


    25. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      01-24-2003 11:07 PM #25
      quote:
      What about how AWD doesnt launch as quick because it will burn the clutch?

      I saw it on a top gear comparison of the zonda pagani and murcialago.
      This might not really matter because these cars are higher powered than most.


      high powered AWD cars will launch better then a high powered RWD, but heres the thing, when drag racing..AWD has the advantage in the 1/8th mile, but due to added weight and more drievtrains loss, RWD has the advantage in the 1/4.


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      01-24-2003 11:21 PM #26
      ide rather have rwd...its great in the twisties and u can do some killer doughnuts in the winter...anyways ide still have my dub for the winter

    27. Member MartijnGizmo's Avatar
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      01-26-2003 10:47 AM #27
      quote:
      What about how AWD doesnt launch as quick because it will burn the clutch?

      I saw it on a top gear comparison of the zonda pagani and murcialago.
      This might not really matter because these cars are higher powered than most.

      edit i mean pagani zonda.


      [Modified by Dilbert2, 3:28 AM 1-25-2003]


      It's more a clutch-problem than an AWD-problem. I saw some videoclips of some German fanatic with a Murciélago who just dumped it at high revs. Might be a clutchkiller, but he sure launched a lot quicker than the one on TopGear.....


    28. 01-26-2003 11:15 AM #28
      quote:

      BECAUSE..there is no right answer.
      What defines better?
      a better lap time?
      better feeling?
      better adjustability?

      a well driven FR or FF car will serve it up equally to a well driven 4wd anyday.
      You cannot compare different cars like wrx vs 330ci vs ITR because there are too many variables to even list. The fact of the matter is, all formats have their strengths and weaknesses..

      You must choose whichever one you think suits you.
      But if you think just because you have 4wd you will lay the smack down on everyone else, it's just not true.


      ding ding ding, we have a winner. this has nothing to do with performance, but FWD is better for fuel economy


    29. 01-26-2003 12:42 PM #29
      Just felt that this needed to be quoted again:

      quote:
      BECAUSE..there is no right answer.
      What defines better?
      a better lap time?
      better feeling?
      better adjustability?

      Handling is subjective.


    30. 01-26-2003 02:59 PM #30
      I think if the question is handling the answer really lies in what the particular driver likes.
      For me, one of the things I cherish most in a car in everyday "handling" is steering feel. For that, I think RWD cannot be touched. My iX has very little power sent to the front wheels and has a similar feel, but pure RWD feels more "elegant" to me.
      Perhaps it's the sheer simplicity of the design that gives RWD cars their nuance.

    31. 01-26-2003 03:20 PM #31
      Just gonna throw something in here

      Having spent a year watching maad 4 cylinder turbos and rotary cars race down the 1/4 mile in New Zealand, I'd say AWD is by far the best setup for drags. The inherent weakness in AWD is, well, more traction means more stress on the parts. Thus, you spend a lot more time and money replacing clutches and trannies in AWD than anything else. RWD is easily the safest car for drags, as it is the least stressful on drivetrain - it just plain loses traction You do NOT want to know what it costs to replace a race-prepped tranny on a Skyline GTR

      I saw a Skyline GTR run 9.57 in the quarter, and the only cars capable of going faster was an Aussie RX7... Why? The other weakness of AWD - it weighs more The problem is, the RX7 had soooo much power in RWD that he just about smacked guard rails on BOTH sides of the strip before crossing the finish with a pittely 13sec. (gotta get that video from my friend)

      At any rate, with street driving I say RWD is the most fun, AWD is the most effective, and FWD is the cheapest

      Al.


    32. Member audiphile's Avatar
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      01-26-2003 04:54 PM #32
      AWD launches own
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      01-26-2003 05:02 PM #33
      quote:
      I saw a Skyline GTR run 9.57 in the quarter, and the only cars capable of going faster was an Aussie RX7... Why? The other weakness of AWD - it weighs more The problem is, the RX7 had soooo much power in RWD that he just about smacked guard rails on BOTH sides of the strip before crossing the finish with a pittely 13sec. (gotta get that video from my friend)

      That's week..... Check out Mario's test-passes on http://www.exvitermini.com.....


    34. Senior Member PineappleMonkey's Avatar
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      01-26-2003 05:42 PM #34
      quote:
      What about how AWD doesnt launch as quick because it will burn the clutch?

      I saw it on a top gear comparison of the zonda pagani and murcialago.
      This might not really matter because these cars are higher powered than most.


      Yea...I wanted to smack him, a equally powered AWD car should be able to out launch any RWD car if its on a street tyre vs strett tyre. You don't have to get a rolling start then get on it, no you rev to 4k slip the clutch and you have a 1.9 60foot. DSM's do it all day long, for how long...well...

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    35. 01-27-2003 12:52 PM #35
      Quote-nowhere in this post does it address which one handles better.
      BECAUSE..there is no right answer.Quote

      That is exactly why it didn't include which handles better. Each one of us has a different view of handling, so I posted a little performance point so each one could consider them and make their own opinion on what handles better.


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