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    Thread: 2ltr with aeb head. Help with turbo size please

    1. Member Alec's TT's Avatar
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      04-17-2014 01:08 AM #1
      I am building a 2ltr bottom end. I have an aeb head i am picking up from the machine shop next weekend, it just got new guides, seals and supertech exhaust valves!

      Im now lost on sizing a turbo. I was going to use an hy35, however i want lots of low end power. Im not worried with hp at all really, just the torque, that is the whole reason i am using 9.5:1 pistons and a stroker with e85. I want nice spool around 3k rpms if possible. I dont know how to read a compressor map so it would be kinda cool if someone could explain one also!

      Thanks, Alec
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    2. Member Pat @ Pitt Soundworks's Avatar
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      04-17-2014 08:08 AM #2
      If you have the coin, 7163. If you don't, 8blade hx35 with . 48 Garrett housing

    3. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-17-2014 06:49 PM #3
      One of the bigger hybrid turbos shouldn't be discounted either.
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    4. Member Alec's TT's Avatar
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      04-18-2014 02:26 AM #4
      HX35 with a .45 housing would spool really fast and move alot of air down low and flatten out kinda quick right? Any idea on spool rpms? But im confused on the garrett housing. That bolts right up to a holset?

      Bigger hybrid as in the gtt? Thats supposedly capable of 350 on a 1.8 with good spool. Better spool on a 2liter!

      I was also wondering about a gt28rs or are there better options than that, the thing about garrett is price when there is options like holsets out there so cheap.
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    5. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-18-2014 02:53 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Alec's TT View Post
      HX35 with a .45 housing would spool really fast and move alot of air down low and flatten out kinda quick right? Any idea on spool rpms? But im confused on the garrett housing. That bolts right up to a holset?

      Bigger hybrid as in the gtt? Thats supposedly capable of 350 on a 1.8 with good spool. Better spool on a 2liter!

      I was also wondering about a gt28rs or are there better options than that, the thing about garrett is price when there is options like holsets out there so cheap.
      I have a used GT2560 off my old APR stg3 setup sitting in a box if you want it for cheap

      However, I think the GTT would suit you rather well. Especially if you can toss some E85 its way.
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    6. Member Pat @ Pitt Soundworks's Avatar
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      04-18-2014 07:27 AM #6
      The hx35. .48 would spool crazy fast. The garret housings bolt to the holder cartridges but you have to have the inside machined to fit the holset turbine wheel

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      04-19-2014 09:09 AM #7
      Look into the BW S200 line.

    8. Member Alec's TT's Avatar
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      04-25-2014 11:09 PM #8
      So i have some more of my build planned out/done. The head is and AEB with stock springs and retainers, but it does have supertech exhaust valve so rpm is limited at 7500.
      Bottom end is a a bored atc block with cp 9.5:1 comp pistons and with decking the head and block i figure it will be a little higher. Injectors are genesis II 1600 and im using e85.
      My intake and tb are stock for now. $ things. But the exhaust mani is going to be a cts top mount, so all that really leaves is the turbo. I am still undecided on that. Im not shooting for high hp at all anymore, before i wanted a 500whp daily, now i want a TON of low end torque. So i am thinking a gt28rs 63. That should spool extremely fast with a 2 liter w/ higher compression and flow a little bit better with the aeb head right?
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    9. Member RodgertheRabit II's Avatar
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      04-26-2014 09:44 PM #9
      a gtx2863 on a 2l would be nuts

    10. 04-27-2014 02:00 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by RodgertheRabit II View Post
      a gtx2863 on a 2l would be nuts
      +1! If I was allowed to increase displacement by my racing rules, I'd be all over a GTX2863r. I'm giggling just thinking about how awesome an E85-powered 2L 2863r would be to drive. Do it!
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    11. Member gitman's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 05:01 AM #11
      the 2863 should put you in the ballpark of 300-350 whp
      Last edited by gitman; 04-27-2014 at 05:03 AM.
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    12. 04-27-2014 11:48 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by gitman View Post
      the 2863 should put you in the ballpark of 300-350 whp
      I would think that this combo (2L, 9.5:1 CR, E85, and a GTX2863r) is capable of 400 whp without breaking a sweat. No?
      "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

    13. Member gitman's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 12:34 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      I would think that this combo (2L, 9.5:1 CR, E85, and a GTX2863r) is capable of 400 whp without breaking a sweat. No?
      since i haven't been able to find anyone with a 2863, all i've been able to compare to are the folks with the 2867, and the general consensus so far is that if you want 400 whp on pump, you need to go with at least a 2867. with E85 and some other supporting mods i suppose its possible. Arnold @ PPT has a 1.9L stroker with AEB head and 2867 and only made 380 whp. i know you were involved in this thread, so i'm really posting it for the benefit of others, but it is mentioned that the 2863 with E85 should make 453 whp according to the compressor map. thing is i can't find anyone with a 2867 putting up close to 450 whp on pump or E85, so im less convinced that the 2863 can reach those numbers.
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    14. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 01:53 PM #14
      Who cares. Its going to be a fat powerband, fast spooling, monster!!!
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    15. Member gitman's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 05:08 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      Who cares. Its going to be a fat powerband, fast spooling, monster!!!
      it might be too much spool too early, unless using some sort of boost-by-gear setup. but of course this is all conjecture.
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    16. Member RodgertheRabit II's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 05:20 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by gitman View Post
      since i haven't been able to find anyone with a 2863, all i've been able to compare to are the folks with the 2867, and the general consensus so far is that if you want 400 whp on pump, you need to go with at least a 2867. with E85 and some other supporting mods i suppose its possible. Arnold @ PPT has a 1.9L stroker with AEB head and 2867 and only made 380 whp. i know you were involved in this thread, so i'm really posting it for the benefit of others, but it is mentioned that the 2863 with E85 should make 453 whp according to the compressor map. thing is i can't find anyone with a 2867 putting up close to 450 whp on pump or E85, so im less convinced that the 2863 can reach those numbers.

      I remember something similar when researching for my project... Everyone said the 2867r would be needed to break 400whp, and it would be pushing it at that point.

      I know my 2867 hit 315whp on 93oct with only 16psi and a basemaestro tune and stock IM/TB. 400whp should be reasonable with the extra bolt ons and e85 and boost

      So I would not be surprised if the 2863 can push further than we (or at least Myself) expected with similar efforts

    17. Member gitman's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 05:37 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by RodgertheRabit II View Post
      I remember something similar when researching for my project... Everyone said the 2867r would be needed to break 400whp, and it would be pushing it at that point.

      I know my 2867 hit 315whp on 93oct with only 16psi and a basemaestro tune and stock IM/TB. 400whp should be reasonable with the extra bolt ons and e85 and boost

      So I would not be surprised if the 2863 can push further than we (or at least Myself) expected with similar efforts
      hey i'm taking your numbers into account here problem is that you haven't gone back to the dyno to re-run it now with the increased boost / better tune / better tires. since i don't have my setup completed yet (2067 stroker + GTX2867R) i have to lean towards pessimism, because if i'm optimistic about my 400whp goal, then i'm going to be disappointed after i've spent all this money and i end up only putting down 360whp on the dyno. i think its something worth exploring though. i'd really like to see someone do the 2863 and get 400 whp, but right now its just a unicorn.
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      |193 whp / 227 ft-lbs on a dyno-dynamics-dynamometer|sitting on my garage floor: 2067cc stroker + PPT V-band w/ GTX2867R|

    18. 04-27-2014 07:10 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by gitman View Post
      since i haven't been able to find anyone with a 2863, all i've been able to compare to are the folks with the 2867, and the general consensus so far is that if you want 400 whp on pump, you need to go with at least a 2867. with E85 and some other supporting mods i suppose its possible. Arnold @ PPT has a 1.9L stroker with AEB head and 2867 and only made 380 whp. i know you were involved in this thread, so i'm really posting it for the benefit of others, but it is mentioned that the 2863 with E85 should make 453 whp according to the compressor map. thing is i can't find anyone with a 2867 putting up close to 450 whp on pump or E85, so im less convinced that the 2863 can reach those numbers.
      if you think compressor maps and garrets estimated 10hp/lb is whp you are all going to be dissapointed.

      453chp. Would be its outright max flow at 60%+ efficiency.

      how you think compressor maps take into account transmission i don't know.

      The problem with the gtx 63 and 67s are that they are still on th end of that old tech 54mm turbine wheel. Whilst the comp wheels are awesome on paper, theyre hindered by the turbine wheel in iwg and ewg housings.

      i have a 2867 and have had to be realistic in my expectations so as not to be dissapoimted by the outcome. I have a T25 .64 version and can only hope it does 400chp in that configuration.

      on the plus side, get a 60mm turbine put on and a v-band housing and i know i probably have 50 more hp out of it.

    19. 04-27-2014 07:13 PM #19
      On the other hand you fellas have e85 so i have no doubt youl get what the comp maps predict theyl do.

      mainstayinc has a 2867 on a 2.1 striker and swears it has an incredible powerband. I just wish he'd get some dynos done

    20. Member gitman's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 07:32 PM #20
      right here sir http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...1#post79889061

      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc
      Add E85 and your at 1.20 x 378 = 453 WHP OR 521 crank HP.
      i never said anything about transmission
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    21. Member RodgertheRabit II's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 07:46 PM #21
      ah, sorry, I should clarify, when I think of this stuff in my head I think Vband...

      on a 1.8l I suspect the 2863 to really work to hit 400whp. I dont doubt the 2867 can hit 400whp at this displacement. Now bump it up to 2L and both 2863 and 76 will wake up much sooner and pull even harder.

      APR saw this potential when they put the GTX2867r on the Golf R/TTRS Stg3 kits and can see over 400hp with presumably not the most aggressive tune.

    22. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 08:13 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by gitman View Post
      it might be too much spool too early, unless using some sort of boost-by-gear setup. but of course this is all conjecture.
      I think boost by gear on this setup would be very wise. FYI Gonzo Tuning does boost by gear in software
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    23. Member gitman's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 08:29 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      I think boost by gear on this setup would be very wise. FYI Gonzo Tuning does boost by gear in software
      i'm watching closely for news on their tuning suite if everything goes well and happens soon enough, chris tapp might end up not seeing a dime of my money...
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    24. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 08:34 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by gitman View Post
      i'm watching closely for news on their tuning suite if everything goes well and happens soon enough, chris tapp might end up not seeing a dime of my money...
      Don't forget that tuning suites are only as good as the operator....
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      04-27-2014 08:46 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      Don't forget that tuning suites are only as good as the operator....
      for me the intrinsic value is in the ability to make changes whenever i want to. gonzo claims to succeed where tapp fails, but i will definitely have to lean heavily on a library of base files and the help of others while i learn the ropes. and i suppose that's true for anyone.
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      04-27-2014 09:19 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by superkarl View Post
      On the other hand you fellas have e85 so i have no doubt youl get what the comp maps predict theyl do.

      mainstayinc has a 2867 on a 2.1 striker and swears it has an incredible powerband. I just wish he'd get some dynos done
      Guys. My car is finally going into the shop this Friday (5/02/14) to get my upgraded intank fuel pump and a few other goodies (P_SEM IM, R32 TB etc.). I have not been on this forum in a few months due to newborn and other priorities. I wanted to install the intank fuel pump before I post a dyno. I will post a dyno once the car is returned to me from the shop (Bill Schimmel in Warminster, PA). Also, if anyone can recommend a place where I can dyno the car in the NE philadelphia area that would be great. Also, with the upgraded intank fuel pump, I definately will be running E85. My goal on E85 is 495WHP. Also, Jeff at Gonzo already test drove my car and can attest to the powerband as the car is now with stock fuel pump and stock IM. Car has way better spoolup than stock-frame turbo and when I had GT28R (at stock displacement). Also, power does not flatten out at high RPMs like the GT28R and continues past redline.

      Here is picture of intank (Aeromotive 340) which I modified with upgraded -6AN adapters. I will probably go double-pumper for E85. Sorry for threadjack.

      Turbo: GTX2867R 0.48 A/R T31; Engine: ALH 95.5mm crank, JE 83mm 9.5:1 pistons, IE rods, ARP bolts; Intake: R32 75mm TB, SEM IM; Intercooling: Upgraded SMIC; ECU: GTS Custom, 4bar MAP sensor; Fueling: G2 1200's, Aero 340 'double-pumper' intank, -6AN lines; Drivetrain: 02J trans, APTuning race gearset, 3.389 RP, Peloquin LSD, Bully Kevlar Clutch; Exhaust: 2.5in QTP cutout; Coming soon: 02C syncro trans + haldex. 'Saint' John Paul II Exposed.

    27. Member Alec's TT's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 11:12 PM #27
      General consensus is a gtx2863 will be pretty nuts, So i have a little more saving to do, a new one of those cost a lil more than a holset lol. and why is boost by gear so highly recommended?
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    28. Member gitman's Avatar
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      04-27-2014 11:33 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Alec's TT View Post
      General consensus is a gtx2863 will be pretty nuts, So i have a little more saving to do, a new one of those cost a lil more than a holset lol. and why is boost by gear so highly recommended?
      well, not for haldex
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    29. Member Alec's TT's Avatar
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      04-28-2014 12:46 AM #29
      thats what i though! boost soon as possible for max throw back in the seat before the next stop light!
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    30. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-28-2014 03:24 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by Alec's TT View Post
      thats what i though! boost soon as possible for max throw back in the seat before the next stop light!
      Boost per gear in your case isn't to delay spool, its to limit max boost in a given gear. For instance, anything over 15 psi in 1st on my gt2871r setup is just stupid. Same goes for 2nd. I'd say 15 psi max in 3rd below 4000, then let it rip.

      But that is of course based on my 1.8L, gt2871r setup.

      Your setup is going to spool quicker and make more power than my setup... Which is going to make power delivery that much more tricky
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    31. 04-28-2014 03:45 PM #31
      ^^^ If I'm not mistaken, he has AWD in his TT Quattro! All these boost per gear limitations only apply, and make sense, as to not overwhelm 2WD cars. It takes upward of 500 WTQ to really have power delivery becoming a real concern in an AWD car with good tires. In his case, I say forget about limiting boost per gear and let it rip as God intended!
      "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

    32. Moderator groggory's Avatar
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      04-28-2014 04:40 PM #32
      Sounds very nice.
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    33. Member Alec's TT's Avatar
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      04-29-2014 12:22 AM #33
      Yes AWD five speed! My gears are very short compared to a mk4 though i think. 25 in 1st. 40 some in 2nd and like 3rd. My friends 5speed jetta does over 100 in third :/ so i will tear right through 1st and 2nd!
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      04-29-2014 10:07 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Alec's TT View Post
      Yes AWD five speed! My gears are very short compared to a mk4 though i think. 25 in 1st. 40 some in 2nd and like 3rd. My friends 5speed jetta does over 100 in third :/ so i will tear right through 1st and 2nd!
      That almost sounds like 02M gearing. I can reach 80 MPH at the top of second gear with my APTuning Race Gearset and taller final drive.
      Turbo: GTX2867R 0.48 A/R T31; Engine: ALH 95.5mm crank, JE 83mm 9.5:1 pistons, IE rods, ARP bolts; Intake: R32 75mm TB, SEM IM; Intercooling: Upgraded SMIC; ECU: GTS Custom, 4bar MAP sensor; Fueling: G2 1200's, Aero 340 'double-pumper' intank, -6AN lines; Drivetrain: 02J trans, APTuning race gearset, 3.389 RP, Peloquin LSD, Bully Kevlar Clutch; Exhaust: 2.5in QTP cutout; Coming soon: 02C syncro trans + haldex. 'Saint' John Paul II Exposed.

    35. Member gitman's Avatar
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      IY 20th AE GTI
      04-29-2014 11:31 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      That almost sounds like 02M gearing. I can reach 80 MPH at the top of second gear with my APTuning Race Gearset and taller final drive.
      wow that does seem much taller from what (i think) i remember about what top speed i reach in 2nd gear in my 02M. i figured a race gearset would have a shorter final drive ratio, but i guess that depends on the kind of racing, eh? probably want short for drag racing, tall for road racing, etc. can you post up your ratios?
      2003 IY 20th Anniv 1.8T GTI #2545
      |forge 007 dv|techtonics tb+borla|apr 93|r32 ss|apr tip|aem filter|velocity stack|034 pcv kit|glass hl lenses|wg spring mod|
      |193 whp / 227 ft-lbs on a dyno-dynamics-dynamometer|sitting on my garage floor: 2067cc stroker + PPT V-band w/ GTX2867R|

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