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    Thread: ISIS brutality - how should the US and world respond?

    1. Member Uberhare's Avatar
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      08-13-2014 06:51 PM #1
      Given the recent events in Iraq and the medieval brutality of the ISIS force, do you think we have an moral or ethical obligation to help those who are being slaughtered by these people? If you were in Obama's position right now, what would you do?
      The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep.

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      08-13-2014 06:59 PM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by bluerabbit0886 View Post
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      08-13-2014 07:06 PM #3
      We have an obligation to stop evil but so does everyone else. This is a Middle Eastern problem for Middle Easterners to solve. They have the firepower, the motivation, and the money. This problem is in their backyard. If they don't want to fix it themselves then they should pay someone else with the capability to fix it for them. The USA can't be the ones leading this nor should we be the only ones paying for it.

      <---2009 Operation Iraqi Freedom veteran

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    4. 08-13-2014 07:10 PM #4
      The Iraqi army is acting like a JROTC unit and getting their sh_t shoved in. The problem here is a perennial ME problem. We wipe out ISIS...then what? Iraq is still in a bad way, will always be. It has unstable and volatile neighbors as well. ISIS is particularly obnoxious so I'm fine with a concerted international campaign of air-demolition.

    5. Member TM87's Avatar
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      08-13-2014 08:19 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      We have an obligation to stop evil but so does everyone else. This is a Middle Eastern problem for Middle Easterners to solve. They have the firepower, the motivation, and the money. This problem is in their backyard. If they don't want to fix it themselves then they should pay someone else with the capability to fix it for them. The USA can't be the ones leading this nor should we be the only ones paying for it.

      <---2009 Operation Iraqi Freedom veteran

      obin
      There is really no military power in the area but Turkey,Iran and Israel. Do we really want to let Iran run the show?? Any involvement from Israel is ludacris. This just leaves Turkey who is NATO member. Join them up w Iraq forces, provide weapons and air support, and let them clean their back yard.

      Arming the Kurds might cause problems down the road . I still believe they have a right to protect them selves, and shouldnt be left helpless.

      This is one of those situations where UN needs to get involved. Im just not sure how much of the work they can do, and are willing to do. Personally i dont trust them and their coward ways.
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    6. 08-13-2014 08:54 PM #6
      Pretty much all of what Obin said.

      And to add...

      If it comes to our door step, of course we should do something about. Until then, it's not our problem. The most recent threats of invading America have me a little stirred up but they've threatened it before so I don't know. It just feels different this time. Let's cross that bridge...
      "We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions."

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      08-14-2014 03:12 AM #7
      You can lead a horse to water...

      Personally, my want to go have a throw down in Iraq is trumped by the concept of a never ending cycle of us enabling them to not do what they need to do.

      <----- Afghanistan veteran.

    8. 08-14-2014 05:33 AM #8
      IMHO, Build a virtual wall around the region, and let the residents sort it out themselves, AFTER, we have removed all American personel and their dependants from the region.
      If it makes it's way to our doorstep, then, and ONLY then, do we nuke 'em from orbit. THEN we'll be sure.
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      08-14-2014 05:40 AM #9
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      08-14-2014 06:44 AM #10
      Well, peace-time Marine Corps is pretty annoying (at best), but that's still no reason to go stick our noses in places we really shouldn't be...

    11. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 08:53 AM #11
      i'm thinking bombing the chit out of them is good enough.
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    12. 08-14-2014 09:12 AM #12
      good vice news series on ISIS.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs

      my feeling? work with the Kurds. seem to be the most reasonable in the area.

    13. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 10:25 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by dj age one View Post
      good vice news series on ISIS.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsCZzpmbEcs

      my feeling? work with the Kurds. seem to be the most reasonable in the area.
      From my personal experience in Iraq they're good people to work with. I think it's great that France has offered real material assistance. What's next is for Germany and the rest of Europe to follow suit. If I were in charge I'd be flooding the various channels with contracts. This ISIS situation could be solved quickly using nothing but local people supported by aviation and Intelligence assets from neighboring countries. We don't need any more than a few Americans there to sign and hand over the necessary papers.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    14. Member Old Windy's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 10:58 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      From my personal experience in Iraq they're good people to work with. I think it's great that France has offered real material assistance. What's next is for Germany and the rest of Europe to follow suit. If I were in charge I'd be flooding the various channels with contracts. This ISIS situation could be solved quickly using nothing but local people supported by aviation and Intelligence assets from neighboring countries. We don't need any more than a few Americans there to sign and hand over the necessary papers.

      obin
      I was actually quite surprised that France was the first to provide material assistance. The other part was that the central government has already sent them ammo and supplies.
      I just hope that the French militray equipment does not have a tendendcy to give up when most needed.
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    15. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 11:01 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Old Windy View Post
      I was actually quite surprised that France was the first to provide material assistance. The other part was that the central government has already sent them ammo and supplies.
      I just hope that the French militray equipment does not have a tendendcy to give up when most needed.
      the french have a surplus of never fired only dropped once rifles...
      Demokratikally Elekted Fist Lieutenant of the Outside Cavalry of the Independent People's Republik of Offtopikstan
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      That's too bad but, VWVortex said so... so you have to do it now.

    16. Member MatchStick's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 11:28 AM #16
      notice how we act when the kurds are threatened. if ISIS over runs that buffer state and are on the Turkish and Iranian border, tenemos problemas.

    17. Member GolfTango's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 11:37 AM #17
      I'm the first one normally saying "it's not our backyard, let them deal with it"...but then I see the images and videos of what ISIS is doing (killing/beheading children, etc.) and I end up thinking we need to step in. There's your atypical war, and then there is barbaric. ISIS is barbaric.
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      08-14-2014 11:42 AM #18
      I say we deal with them in the same manner we do with sub-Saharan Africa ... ignore the SOBs until some kids from California do some good ol' internet activism, pretend to be outraged for thirty seconds, re-post/share/blog about how horrible it is, and then largely do nothing.

      IT IS NOT OUR FIGHT ... Just like every dictator cutting off the arms of every child in the Congo or every warlord brutally murdering people in Sierra Leone.

      Quote Originally Posted by GolfTango View Post
      I'm the first one normally saying "it's not our backyard, let them deal with it"...but then I see the images and videos of what ISIS is doing (killing/beheading children, etc.) and I end up thinking we need to step in. There's your atypical war, and then there is barbaric. ISIS is barbaric.
      Shall we go into every country in Africa as well? Doesn't seem like #Kony2012 worked out too well for the people of Uganda or Rwanda.

      Hint: We're only in Iraq right now because of the oil. Period. This isn't humanitarian, this isn't the good will of the US people, this is economic imperialism, plain and simple.
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    19. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 11:49 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      I'm fine with a concerted international campaign of air-demolition.
      Quote Originally Posted by dubraycer36 View Post
      nuke 'em from orbit.
      Quote Originally Posted by mad8vskillz View Post
      i'm thinking bombing the chit out of them is good enough.
      Genocide is never going to give you lasting peace, it will only make you an enemy of those you tried to wipe off the planet.

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      08-14-2014 11:54 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by mad8vskillz View Post
      the french have a surplus of never fired only dropped once rifles...
      Yea, except for that whole thing about helping us win the Revolutionary War, continuously fighing in Africa (up to today), losing millions in World War I, and underestimating Hitler just like everyone else did. Geez what a bunch of nancies
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      08-14-2014 12:03 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by l88m22vette View Post
      Yea, except for that whole thing about helping us win the Revolutionary War, continuously fighing in Africa (up to today), losing millions in World War I, and underestimating Hitler just like everyone else did. Geez what a bunch of nancies
      Some people are still butt hurt they didn't run willy-nilly into the Iraq War in 2003 ... in retrospect, I wonder if those same people see that they were right ...

      "Freedom" fries and "Freedom" toast ... god what a bunch of nancy, little, f*cktards we were ...
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    22. Member boner's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 12:05 PM #22
      untill society in general over there realizes that killing each other solves absolutely nothing and there's a possibility of a more positive life, there's no freakin point in stickin our hands in.

      you americans get the worst of it. you get critisized for not goin in there as the world's police, and then you get burnt at the stake because you went in there and tried to sort it (regardless of validities of doing it in the first place, that's another discussion!). given that, not sure why you would even question it?!?!1

      sure, you could nuke the place from orbit but the result will inevitably be nuke resistant cockroaches that hate the west even more. that whole region is like a 2000 year old alcoholic. they've yet to reach rock bottom. until they do and admit to their problems, i personally see no point in helping them.

      the way i see things at the moment is the people over there hate the west because.... well, just because. i'm sure affluence is a big reason. going in there to try n sort the mess will result in military deaths in an area that pretty much has no safe haven, because they hate the west. then they'll hate the west more because they tried to interfere with their affairs (and inevitable civilian deaths). so no real motivator there.

      the option of aerial bombardment isn't so peachy either. no matter how accurate the missles are, there's gonna be collateral damage, so they're gonna hate you. add to that the "impersonal" aspect of aerial bombardment, "the imperialists sit at home 1000s of miles away and dispatch their firestorms and then go home n have a beer and watch american idol". ya, that's gonna make that area better...

      the whole freakin place is a no win situation until they decide for themselves to change for the better. when that happens, THEN you help the **** outta them and speed them along to the 21st century as fast as possible. one just hopes that in the meantime, they don't get an old soviet nuke, cuz it would seem they're insane enough to actually use it...

      EDIT: obviously, finding those to help is the $64,000 question. personally, i'd start with the people who DON'T have a weapon. not downplaying the difficulty of this task but if it was easy, eveyone would be doing it....
      Last edited by boner; 08-14-2014 at 12:10 PM.

    23. 08-14-2014 12:18 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Old Windy View Post
      I was actually quite surprised that France was the first to provide material assistance. The other part was that the central government has already sent them ammo and supplies.
      I just hope that the French militray equipment does not have a tendendcy to give up when most needed.
      Actually if you have followed France recently they've been very gung-ho (I think their new communist leader is going with the Putin-style distraction of using their military frequently to keep attention off the failing country). They've been very active in Libya, went full tilt into Mali, have been providing aviation assets for other operations in the burning ME. This didn't surprise me at all.

      Personally I'm tempted to pay a large private military corporation several billion dollars and then leave the cameras at home. The ex-patriot founder of Blackwater started a big Arab-funded private military a couple years ago. Wonder what they're up to, and if we could use them.

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      08-14-2014 12:23 PM #24
      By sending me back and giving me free reign.
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    25. 08-14-2014 12:33 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Aonarch View Post
      By sending me back and giving me free reign.
      This is what bugs me the most. The world absolutely has the capability to defeat threats like ISIS (the military threat not the loony religious psychopath threat - that's here to stay). It's like Vietnam. The war we could have won in a month, but were politically unable to do so. Even in Afghanistan and Iraq we haven't unleashed the full potential of our military machine. I'm not speaking of nukes, I'm speaking of all-out/round-the-clock violence of action.

      Iraq though, like Afghanistan is a lost cause. Whenever we get involved militarily, we go stupid - thinking we can fix crappy countries which have never been non-problematic. This inevitably ties us to their future forever. If Iraq or Afghanistan miraculously worked well for 10 years and then succumbed to another revolution or extremist over-throw...it'll all come back to "Well, when the U.S....". All the more reason not to get involved the way we do. If we need to kick in a door and give someone a moment of pause - do so...but don't move in, set up shop and pretend we're going to magically fix a conflict which is hundreds or thousands of years old with some MRE's and some vaccines.

    26. Member Uberhare's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 12:38 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by GolfTango View Post
      I'm the first one normally saying "it's not our backyard, let them deal with it"...but then I see the images and videos of what ISIS is doing (killing/beheading children, etc.) and I end up thinking we need to step in. There's your atypical war, and then there is barbaric. ISIS is barbaric.
      I agree. This isn't your typical poorly armed bunch of terrorists. This is a group of battled-hardened well armed and funded fanatical nuts who have shown a whole new level of brutality and barbaric acts. I don't mind using my tax dollars to use our military weapons to track down and kill these people. You need only limited number of boots on the ground and fill the sky with AC-130 gun ships, A-10 warthogs, and Apaches. Give them no place to hide. I'm all for unleashing our firepower on these people.

      Problem is, if no one acts to immediately stop this type of behavior it will keep occurring without restraint. ISIS I'm sure is viewing the world's lack of resolve as a sign of weakness. It just gives them even more incentive to keep doing what they enjoy doing....which is basically slaughtering men, women and kids. UNACCEPTABLE in today's world.
      The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep.

    27. 08-14-2014 12:39 PM #27
      These guys are animals. If their Islamic "state" gets any traction it will make the Taliban look like a theme park and it will be where future attacks on the west originate from. People in the US say "its not our problem", but it literally is your problem, since kicking over Saddam and destabilizing that area let this happen, and if these guys get a foothold it will eventually be Americans and American interests they go looking for.

    28. Geriatric Member Obin Robinson's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 12:42 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      This is what bugs me the most. The world absolutely has the capability to defeat threats like ISIS (the military threat not the loony religious psychopath threat - that's here to stay). It's like Vietnam. The war we could have won in a month, but were politically unable to do so. Even in Afghanistan and Iraq we haven't unleashed the full potential of our military machine. I'm not speaking of nukes, I'm speaking of all-out/round-the-clock violence of action.

      Iraq though, like Afghanistan is a lost cause. Whenever we get involved militarily, we go stupid - thinking we can fix crappy countries which have never been non-problematic. This inevitably ties us to their future forever. If Iraq or Afghanistan miraculously worked well for 10 years and then succumbed to another revolution or extremist over-throw...it'll all come back to "Well, when the U.S....". All the more reason not to get involved the way we do. If we need to kick in a door and give someone a moment of pause - do so...but don't move in, set up shop and pretend we're going to magically fix a conflict which is hundreds or thousands of years old with some MRE's and some vaccines.
      While I was in Iraq I heard one of the most interesting quotes about America from an Iraqi. We were talking about various militaries that had been in Iraq over the years. He said:

      "You know the difference between the American military and the Russian military? When people here the Americans are coming they are not really scared. They know you will do only a little damage and then try to fix everything before you leave. When people here the Russian military are coming they are terrified. They know they can be there for only one reason and that's to kill everything that angers them."

      He had a point and that point is still true to this day. Who's really scared of us? The military has become "Meals on Wheels" and isn't allowed to do what they do best: kill people and break things.

      obin
      "We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa

    29. Member Uberhare's Avatar
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      08-14-2014 12:44 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Elbows View Post
      This is what bugs me the most. The world absolutely has the capability to defeat threats like ISIS (the military threat not the loony religious psychopath threat - that's here to stay). It's like Vietnam. The war we could have won in a month, but were politically unable to do so. Even in Afghanistan and Iraq we haven't unleashed the full potential of our military machine. I'm not speaking of nukes, I'm speaking of all-out/round-the-clock violence of action.
      This 100%. ISIS needs someone to bring hell upon them. "shock and awe" as it's been said before. Unleash your most ruthless generals.....or do we not have those anymore? You know...Patton, LeMay, etc.
      The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep.

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      08-14-2014 12:52 PM #30
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    31. 08-14-2014 12:53 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by Obin Robinson View Post
      While I was in Iraq I heard one of the most interesting quotes about America from an Iraqi. We were talking about various militaries that had been in Iraq over the years. He said:

      "You know the difference between the American military and the Russian military? When people here the Americans are coming they are not really scared. They know you will do only a little damage and then try to fix everything before you leave. When people here the Russian military are coming they are terrified. They know they can be there for only one reason and that's to kill everything that angers them."

      He had a point and that point is still true to this day. Who's really scared of us? The military has become "Meals on Wheels" and isn't allowed to do what they do best: kill people and break things.

      obin
      Pretty much. I remember some special on Discovery Channel about U.S. Navy anti-piracy operations. It started with a high-speed, highly motivated team of young officers and ensigns --- all excited to go and do some of the Navy's original mission. They were training hard, had big expectations. Then it turned into the same PC nonsense. Pirates tossing weapons so they're no longer pirates. Tag them, finger-print them, give them meals, health checks and then deposit them safely back on the coast. By the end of the documentary the teams were completely demotivated and had given up.

      By contrast...the Russians kick the f_ck out of pirates, and deposit them in the ocean on a survival raft and leave. Which do you think the Somalis fear more?

    32. 08-14-2014 01:14 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Genocide is never going to give you lasting peace, it will only make you an enemy of those you tried to wipe off the planet.


      Berlin 1945

      Last edited by zukiphile; 08-14-2014 at 01:20 PM.
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      08-14-2014 01:38 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post


      Berlin 1945

      We also rebuilt those two countries from the ground up after turning them to rubble. When people say nuke the ME, I don't think spending a couple trillion on rebuilding the rubble is what they have in mind.
      Quote Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
      This is why Gen Y is really unhappy. Late 90s/Early 2000s small turbo motors. They're like crack and slightly more expensive.

    34. 08-14-2014 01:46 PM #34
      Application of force against an enemy can solve the problem by eliminating the enemy.

      That requires identification of the enemy and following through with effective action. That we aren't set up to do that doesn't mean that force can't solve problems; it means we can't solve some problems.
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      08-14-2014 02:46 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Uberhare View Post
      I agree. This isn't your typical poorly armed bunch of terrorists. This is a group of battled-hardened well armed and funded fanatical nuts who have shown a whole new level of brutality and barbaric acts. I don't mind using my tax dollars to use our military weapons to track down and kill these people. You need only limited number of boots on the ground and fill the sky with AC-130 gun ships, A-10 warthogs, and Apaches. Give them no place to hide. I'm all for unleashing our firepower on these people.
      http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...c1a_story.html

      Retired general discusses the limitations of air power in sustained combat. Basically, the shock and awe of air strikes and even air power only lasts a short period of time. After that, for continued efficacy, you need ground assets. Besides turning vast spans of land into glass, aerial dominance has a hard time making lasting changes.

      It's a slippery slope that goes from air strikes to special forces "advisors" to the Marines, to an Army occupation and suddenly you've got a permanent base and a role 3 hospital in country.

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