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    Thread: Vaccinations - good or bad??

    1. Member Uberhare's Avatar
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      09-15-2014 05:28 PM #1
      To most people this is a no-brainer. Of course you want to get vaccinated against nasty stuff like polio, measles, and HPV. But to others they see it as unnecessary.

      Good video on the subject here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/va...ing-shots.html

      Interesting tid bit I learned from the video....herd immunity. Example from the video was how it saved a good chunk of New York a while back during the measles outbreak. Could have been much, much worse if it wasn't for the fact that most people have been vaccinated against the disease.

      It's kind of mind-numbing to think some parents will not allow their kids to be vaccinated. Seems like common sense. We have a family friend who is anti-vaccine. Refuses to get her kid vaccinated for fear of the "side effects". She tells me the chances of her kid developing Polio or Smallpox are so low that the benefits do not outweigh the negatives. Wow. God forbid your kid gets exposed to someone who is carrying that disease......
      The lion does not concern himself with the opinion of the sheep.

    2. Member adrew's Avatar
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      09-15-2014 05:41 PM #2
      Here in Texas we get crazy church people who refuse to get vaccinated, do mission work overseas then bring something back that infects their whole congregation, most recently measles.

      http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro...megachurch.ece
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    3. 09-15-2014 08:30 PM #3
      Vaccination has done so great in overall population, eradicating serious illness, that it can't be dismissed.

      However an excess of vaccination, if such a thing exists, might be another story specially when you sell the service...
      2007 E90 AW 323i Step | Lowered 1.25"/1" | BMW Performance Exhaust | Debadged | Scangauge II | Style 162 18" & 161 17" wheels & rear 15mm spacers

    4. Member damion16v's Avatar
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      09-17-2014 02:44 PM #4
      I think there's not enough research done on the delivery methods (use of mercury, for example). It's also disturbing that there is a separate vaccine "court" for people who suffer debilitating side effects, and regular courts will outright reject suits on that basis.

      I also think over-vaccination should be a concern. When I was born there were 4 vaccines for kids, today there are 12. What are the long term effects of that? I'm not poo-pooing the benefits of vaccination but I think the issue should be more transparent and reviewed more critically instead of questioners being shouted down.
      Quote Originally Posted by Rub-ISH View Post
      I am now sucessfully motivated to get TED KENEDY levels of Sh!thoused and antagonize the antagonists...kudos

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      09-18-2014 12:17 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      I think there's not enough research done on the delivery methods (use of mercury, for example). It's also disturbing that there is a separate vaccine "court" for people who suffer debilitating side effects, and regular courts will outright reject suits on that basis.

      I also think over-vaccination should be a concern. When I was born there were 4 vaccines for kids, today there are 12. What are the long term effects of that? I'm not poo-pooing the benefits of vaccination but I think the issue should be more transparent and reviewed more critically instead of questioners being shouted down.
      This is going to sound condescending, but I don't mean it that way: If you think there's not enough research being done on Thiomersal, or that the issue isn't transparent and hasn't been reviewed critically, then it's only because you haven't looked.

    6. Member damion16v's Avatar
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      09-18-2014 12:58 PM #6
      A fair point. Wading through google searches for anything approaching impartial information on vaccines these days is trying. Pops, do you have any good pointers? Not being facetious, I am genuinely interested.
      Last edited by damion16v; 09-18-2014 at 01:04 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Rub-ISH View Post
      I am now sucessfully motivated to get TED KENEDY levels of Sh!thoused and antagonize the antagonists...kudos

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      09-18-2014 01:41 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
      This is going to sound condescending, but I don't mean it that way: If you think there's not enough research being done on Thiomersal, or that the issue isn't transparent and hasn't been reviewed critically, then it's only because you haven't looked.
      My wife is a Pediatrician. This is what she says almost word-for-word to the parents that ask her about vaccines. Unfortunately, the internet is not the best source for this information. At the end of the day, even if someone is so hard-headed and dense (not directed at anyone in particular) that they still think critically peer-reviewed studies are still biased, then they deserve the consequences of their decision.

      We live in what could be argued as a fairly affluent region, and what I find somewhat hilarious/sad is that it is the supposedly "well-educated," and affluent that are negatively affected by this whole mess. Look at the herd immunity of communities in the Bay Area: Berkeley, Marin, Palo Alto. I've never seen or spoken to or met so many people that are intelligent yet so illogical when it comes to the decision to vaccinate their kids.

      Typically the same demographic that opt to do "natural" child birth in the comfort of their home--with not a single medically trained person on the premises. But child birth is "natural"--yes so is death to the mother or child from complications arising from delivery. We seem to forget that only 100 years ago, it was common for someone to die while giving birth--10 women and 100 infants die for every 1000 births.

      I apologize for the above derailment of the topic.
      [/rant]

    8. Member damion16v's Avatar
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      09-18-2014 02:16 PM #8
      What was sanitation like 100 years ago?

      We went the home birth route because my wife hates getting pushed around by medical staff, and hired experienced midwives who have plenty of training. Our kid is quite happy and healthy, as are/were billions of others not born in a hospital for thousands of years. Not every doctor is smart, nor is every midwife, or parent.

      I would LOVE more information on vaccines, their research, relevancy, etc. that is impartial, meaning not research funded and conducted by the manufacturer. If I'm giving my child anything to consume, I want to know as much as possible about it.
      Quote Originally Posted by Rub-ISH View Post
      I am now sucessfully motivated to get TED KENEDY levels of Sh!thoused and antagonize the antagonists...kudos

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      09-19-2014 12:37 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      What was sanitation like 100 years ago?

      We went the home birth route because my wife hates getting pushed around by medical staff, and hired experienced midwives who have plenty of training. Our kid is quite happy and healthy, as are/were billions of others not born in a hospital for thousands of years. Not every doctor is smart, nor is every midwife, or parent.

      I would LOVE more information on vaccines, their research, relevancy, etc. that is impartial, meaning not research funded and conducted by the manufacturer. If I'm giving my child anything to consume, I want to know as much as possible about it.
      First, I am glad that your wife and child are healthy and happy. Second, I won't insult your intelligence by saying I'm not passing judgment, because I am. I bolded the above because, I sure hope that was not the only reason--a selfish one at that--that you decided to take the risk of home vs. hospital delivery.

      Look, I'm an Engineer by trade, so I won't proclaim to be a medical expert (my wife is), but at the same time, the bulk of what I do is risk mitigation, especially when my work involves systems containing flammable gasses in excess of 14,000 psi. I'm also logical enough not to simply rely on what I call "sensational" percentages (see bolded below), but whenever I am presented by data, I always look at raw numbers and make the decision from there.

      There is risk present in everything, you know that. In your case, I could say that you increased the risk of infant mortality by 400%, or I could say your child is 4 times more likely to die, or I could say that you went from a 0.5/1000 risk to a 2/1000 risk of infant mortality, or I could further say that you went from a 0.05% risk to a 0.2% risk. All numbers are factual (from the CDC) and all representations are true and accurate, it just depends on how YOU view the information and your aversion to risk.

      Just for reference, I calculated MY risk for dying on my motorcycle based on lifetime mileage, and the chances that I'll die due to me riding my motorcycle is 0.000000333%. Just something to think about, since you know, riding a motorcycle in rush hour traffic, twice a week, regardless of weather (o.k. no snow in the SF Bay), is dangerous. (Data based on 33 deaths per 1 million miles travelled).

      Now onto vaccines. Is there something specific that you are looking for? What specifically are you worried about?

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      09-19-2014 12:47 PM #10
      I admittedly pass judgement on anyone that doesn't vaccinate their children. It is selfish and dangerous and a reason why they are not allowed in our schools. We followed a modified Sears schedule based on recommendation from multiple doctors.
      Last edited by Papa Dras; 09-19-2014 at 12:50 PM.

    11. Member damion16v's Avatar
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      09-19-2014 01:26 PM #11
      ****, I can't roll my eyes enough. Here's a big problem with parents and the topic of vaccines: if you aren't going along with everyone else you are outright judged. I am merely questioning a lot of things, like why in the modern age of sanitation the MMR*, polio and Hep A &B vaccines are necessary. Polio immunity has been proven to be given through breast milk, MMR symptoms are easily treated and I don't imagine my daughter is going to be sexually active anytime soon. I also question the side effects of the ingredients used in the vaccines (aluminum, sulfate, formaldehyde) on my kid, especially before the blood-brain barrier is fully developed. I'm not, I repeat NOT one that believes that "vaccines cause autism!" or any of that crap. I just want to what the long term effects of these things are, and I've either been brushed off or been told "we don't know". I also haven't said we aren't vaccinating.

      And I'm not getting into a pissing contest over home births and/or midwives v. hospitals, especially when the rest of the developed world commonly following the practice and does not have the mortality rate that the US does. We can argue safety stats back and forth all day and neither one of us is going to convince the other. And I'm not saying the CDC is incorrect in their logic, it's that it's not all-encompassing.

      *there was a mumps outbreak in central OH this summer, and it was reported that those infected were both vaccinated and unvaccinated.
      Last edited by damion16v; 09-19-2014 at 01:37 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Rub-ISH View Post
      I am now sucessfully motivated to get TED KENEDY levels of Sh!thoused and antagonize the antagonists...kudos

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      09-19-2014 01:29 PM #12
      Damion16v, not ignoring you, just swamped with work.

    13. Member damion16v's Avatar
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      09-19-2014 01:32 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by pops View Post
      Damion16v, not ignoring you, just swamped with work.
      Pops, I appreciate you even remembering.
      Quote Originally Posted by Rub-ISH View Post
      I am now sucessfully motivated to get TED KENEDY levels of Sh!thoused and antagonize the antagonists...kudos

    14. Member MAG58's Avatar
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      09-19-2014 10:53 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      I am merely questioning a lot of things, like why in the modern age of sanitation the MMR*, polio and Hep A &B vaccines are necessary. Polio immunity has been proven to be given through breast milk
      You need to understand the concept of passive vs. active immunity.
      Breast milk confers passive immunity, while vaccines (assuming an immunocompetent host) confer active immuniy. The difference being that Immunoglobulins (antiboties, Ig) are transferred through breast milk which the child's immune system can use the antibodies to fight disease as the child's fully functioning immune system really doesn't come 'online', so to speak, until around 6 months of age. This is one of the reasons OB/Gyn and Pediatricians push parents so much into breast feeding among its other demonstrated benefits. However once the child stops breast feeding those Ig stop getting transferred to the child and the passive immunity ceases. Active immunity, then, is when antigens (what the body targets) are given to the children so that the child's own immune system can develop the specialized cells to target the active versions of the disease. This is MUCH longer lasting. It was originally thought to be a lifelong immunity but some new studies are showing that active immunity can begin to wane later into adulthood (why we now suggest meningitis vaccines again to people >65, and why Tdap is given once in adulthood instead of the regular Td or simply teatnus vaccines every 10 years).

      Additonally, it's important to remember that there are two types of polio vaccine: OPV and IPV (oral vs injected). In the US, we give IPV as OPV is a life, attenuated virus (real virus made incapable of causing polio). Why is this distinction important? With IPV you're not getting the live virus so you remove the tiny percentage that the attenuated virus becomes virulent. Additionally the virus sheds into the child's stools, which can remain infective for non-vaccinated individuals. The IPV only contains antigens, so it is not possible to get polio from the vaccine. Well **** MAG58, why even give OPV? OPV is given in developing countries where polio is still an endemic as unlike IPV, OPV provides active immunity to the GI tract as well as systemically (IPV is systemic only), which makes the OPV a better vaccine from that endpoint. Additionally, the equipment required to give an oral vaccine is not as intensive as IPV (Don't need clean needles).

      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      MMR symptoms are easily treated
      This greatly downplays the severity of the diseases MMR covers. Of all the things you listed MMR does lend itself to the highest rate of side effects even though the rate is still very low in the general population. Why then is the MMR still FDA approved and recommended by every regulatory body in medicine? No it's not because those damn pediatricians are out to squeeze money out of you, it's because Measles, Rubella, and (to a lesser extent), Mumps are fatal diseases, there are very few treatment options, all of them supportive. I would not wish measles on anyone. Additionally, congenital rubella (mothers which become infected with rubella when pregnant and the disease transfers to the baby) causes horrible birth defects. Given that Rubella can provide a very indolent disease in adulthood, it is possible that the mother has very limited symptoms which do not display the severity of the birth defects which can be caused by it.

      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      and I don't imagine my daughter is going to be sexually active anytime soon.
      I truly do not mean to be offensive in this remark, but there have been many well intentioned parents who have been burned by this assumption, without knowing how old she is. Also if it gets on the back burner (assuming she's a newborn or toddler), most people forget about it until those years roll around which is a less than desirable strategy Additionally in the case of HepB, sexual contact is the current largest location of transmission, but it is not the only way it is transmitted. Hepatitis A & E are transferred via eating contaminated food, not via blood as HepB and C.

      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      I also question the side effects of the ingredients used in the vaccines (aluminum, sulfate, formaldehyde) on my kid, especially before the blood-brain barrier is fully developed.
      While this is a valid concern, the aluminum and formaldehyde found in vaccines is insignificant compared to what your child eats and drinks daily (aluminum) or what the body naturally produces (formaldehyde). I guarantee you she drinks and eats multiple orders of magnitude of sulfate every day in her food.

      For aluminum, from the Children's Hospital of Pennsylvania (I'd argue it's the best, or one of the best pediatrics programs in the nation):
      During the first 6 months of life, infants receive about 4 milligrams of aluminum from vaccines. [...] During the same period, babies will receive about 10 milligrams of aluminum in breast milk, about 40 milligrams in infant formula, or about 120 milligrams in soy based infant formula
      For formaldehyde from FDA.gov:
      Studies have shown that for a newborn of average weight of 6 - 8 pounds, the amount of formaldehyde in their body is 50-70 times higher than the upper amount that they could receive from a single dose of a vaccine or from vaccines administered over time.
      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      *there was a mumps outbreak in central OH this summer, and it was reported that those infected were both vaccinated and unvaccinated.
      So this is a misleading topic about vaccines. No single vaccine confers 100% of the immunity, 100% of the time. Additionally those that are vaccinated who receive the illness probably had a significantly shorter course of illness (without knowing the actual numbers of the outbreak). To know whether or not the MMR vaccine was not as effective as studied one would have to know the percentage of people who received the disease that were actually vaccinated who exposed and developed the disease and the course of the disease. To say just that there exists MMR vaccinated people who were infected without any other data takes a complicated epidemiological question and distills it so far as to be unable to form any constructive arguments one way or the other.
      Last edited by MAG58; 09-20-2014 at 12:18 PM.

    15. Member BetterByDesign's Avatar
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      09-20-2014 01:44 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by TW@ View Post
      My wife is a Pediatrician. This is what she says almost word-for-word to the parents that ask her about vaccines. Unfortunately, the internet is not the best source for this information. At the end of the day, even if someone is so hard-headed and dense (not directed at anyone in particular) that they still think critically peer-reviewed studies are still biased, then they deserve the consequences of their decision.
      Most if not all medical professionals say the same thing.

      There are plenty of eccentric weirdos in the Bay Area. Perhaps certain folks can afford to be ignorant of facts and have time to enjoy conversations about it and big foot sightings over bottles of wine.
      Brazil 2014

    16. Member damion16v's Avatar
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      Today 10:05 AM #16
      Prevailing opinion by scientists and medical professionals has been wrong before. Doctors routinely admit that they don't know everything and how can they? There's a metric ton of information they have to know and more comes out every day.

      Additionally, I come across information like this:

      http://finance.yahoo.com/news/study-...133000584.html

      A top research scientist working for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) played a key role in helping Dr. Brian Hookerof the Focus Autism Foundation uncover data manipulation by the CDC that obscured a higher incidence of autism in African-American boys. The whistleblower came to the attention of Hooker, a PhD in biochemical engineering, after he had made a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for original data on the DeStefano et al MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) and autism study.
      The bold text is from the yahoo, not me.

      It's not the autism link that I'm worried about, it's the fact that the data was manipulated in the first place. Because the first question to my mind is "what other data has been manipulated?"

      I'm not questioning the usefulness of vaccination in modern times. They work, they've saved countless lives in times of need; I am questioning the blind pressure on parents to give their kids potentially harmful shots before they might be ready for them. I want to see more impartial data, and I don't feel that's a request worthy of lumping me in with religious zealots or the dirtiest of hippies.
      Quote Originally Posted by Rub-ISH View Post
      I am now sucessfully motivated to get TED KENEDY levels of Sh!thoused and antagonize the antagonists...kudos

    17. Member MAG58's Avatar
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      Today 02:49 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post

      I'm not questioning the usefulness of vaccination in modern times. They work, they've saved countless lives in times of need; I am questioning the blind pressure on parents to give their kids potentially harmful shots before they might be ready for them. I want to see more impartial data, and I don't feel that's a request worthy of lumping me in with religious zealots or the dirtiest of hippies.
      Okay, what evidence do you have as to the bias in the current publications on vaccine efficacy? Where is the preliminary data that suggests that waiting to vaccinate has a better risk/benefit profile than giving them early "before they might be ready for them"? What developmental stage has been show to make a child ready for vaccines?


      Providing the data that you have that answers those questions will go a long way to give the legitimacy that you seek.

    18. Member damion16v's Avatar
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      Today 03:26 PM #18
      Well, I don't have a lot of information handy but Japan's shift from vaccinating at 3 months to vaccinating at 24 months, SIDS cases dropped 85 percent:

      http://www.cafemom.com/journals/read...e_a_connection

      Not dying is a pretty big benefit, from my point of view.
      Quote Originally Posted by Rub-ISH View Post
      I am now sucessfully motivated to get TED KENEDY levels of Sh!thoused and antagonize the antagonists...kudos

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      Today 03:37 PM #19
      http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/sids_faq.html
      http://sids.org/

      It's very easy to find data to support any stance someone has nowadays.

      ...and I apologize for my initial rant because I misunderstood your stance, thinking that you were saying vaccinations were bad in general.
      Last edited by Papa Dras; Today at 03:41 PM.

    20. Member MAG58's Avatar
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      Today 04:14 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by damion16v View Post
      Well, I don't have a lot of information handy but Japan's shift from vaccinating at 3 months to vaccinating at 24 months, SIDS cases dropped 85 percent:

      http://www.cafemom.com/journals/read...e_a_connection

      Not dying is a pretty big benefit, from my point of view.
      This is interesting, mostly because I had to do some digging to figure out where this article came from. To that end, the study looked at DPT, not DTaP (which is used now), a vaccine with a much lower incidence of adverse effects.

      Some newer, larger articles that may be relevant, as they include multiple heterogeneous countries and one is a meta-analysis of 9 separate studies, the other a study involving over 100k (even using DPT before the US start of DTaP use)

      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...64410X07002800

      http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...98809083191006

      Additionally, here's a study looking at SIDS rates in multiple countries. Japan is lower than the US, yes, but Ireland, Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands (all relatively homogeneous countries) all have vaccine schedules with DTaP in the first 2-3 months and have lower SIDS rates. This data is as recent as 2005.

      http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull.pdf%20html

      Here's a nice list of published Vaccine schedules of countries in the EU:
      http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...?ArticleId=201

      Oddly enough, I find it interesting that they still give BCG at birth, the US does not require BCG Ever.
      However this to me suggests that something other than DTaP is at play with SIDS: See the big US push to have babies sleep prone in the early 90's and the staggering drop in mortality rates.

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