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    Thread: Motorcycle Forum FAQ and Frequently Asked Rookie Questions

    1. 05-25-2005 12:25 PM #36
      I also want to add that Suzuki Bandit 600 is a good starting bike after taking the MSF classes. It has a very constant/flat power curve. (Not Bandit 1200!)

      Use a previously owned bike for a starter bike which is in good shape. (The less fairing the cheaper it will be to fix) If the bike goes down for some reason, you don't have to worry too much compared to a shiny new bike

      For beginners, please visit this forum, read and ask questions! http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/?f=21

      Remember: You look down, you go down. Look where you want to go. Motorcycle goes exactly where you are looking to.

      Motorcycles and cars are two totally different vehicles sharing the same road. Driving one doesn't mean that you can do the other Take MSF class. Best thing you can do to yourself


      Modified by conan337 at 12:27 PM 5-25-2005


    2. 06-15-2005 06:06 PM #37
      There are a couple great books out there that you can read to further your motorcycling enjoyment! I've read all four of these books and reread them every "offseason"!! Ride safe and keep the shiny side up!
      Twist of the Wrist 1 and 2 by Keith Code
      Total Control by Lee Parks
      Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch

    3. Vortex Media Group Staff Tim@VMG's Avatar
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      07-27-2005 08:05 AM #38
      Everyone should read this article.

      http://chicagolandsportbikes.c...26786

      BB is down now, so I will copy it here. My apoligies and thanks to the original author.

      Quote »

      Form Equals Function: Sportbikes are Not Beginner Bikes

      Introduction

      Well, another riding season is upon us and as it always happens, we get lots of inquiries from potential new riders on how to get into the sport, what's a good first ride, where to take safety classes and so on. One particular type of inquiry that pops up with almost clockwork frequency is from a small number of new riders who wish to buy 600cc and up sportbikes as their first ride.

      For the past year and a half, I, along with lots of other BB forum members, have entertained this question of 600cc sportbikes for a first ride with patience and lots and lots of repetition. It seems this small group of newbies keep coming back with the same arguments and questions over and over again. As a result, I am going to take the time in this column to try and put into words, answers that get repeated over and over on the BB forums.

      Allow me to state first and foremost that I am a sport rider. My first bike was a Ninja 250R and I put nearly 7000 miles on it in two seasons before selling it. I am presently shopping for my next ride and it will almost certainly be a sportbike or sport tourer in the 600-1000cc range. I am also building a track bike in my garage which I hope to complete this season (a Yamaha FZR600). Although I am not an expert rider by any stretch, I have tinkered enough and done enough research along with talking with other riders to be able to speak with some degree of knowledge on the subject.

      This column is split into two parts. First, I would like to address the common arguments we see here as to why a 600cc sportbike simply must be a first ride along with rebuttals. Second, I want to cover the rationale behind why the BB community-at-large steers new riders away from these machines.

      False Logic

      On about a three month interval, a whole slew of questions pop up on the BB forum from potential riders trying to convince the community that a 600cc sportbike is a suitable first ride and then proceed to explain to us why they are the exception. I can almost set my clock to this pattern of behavior since it is almost swarm-like. I guess the newbies figure by swamping the forum with the same questions in lots of places we might trip up and endorse such a machine. Hasn't happened yet but they keep on trying.

      For those of you that come to Beginner Bikes trying to convince us to endorse a 600cc sportbike, I offer you the following responses to your arguments.
      I can only afford to get one bike so it might as be the one that I want.

      I don't want to go through the hassle of buying and selling a used bike to learn on.

      These two lines of reasoning pop up as one of the more common arguments. I am going to offer first a piece of wisdom which is stated with great regularity on the forums:

      This is your first bike, not your last.

      Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc.

      Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible.

      However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000.

      Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike.

      Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category.

      If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there.

      And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue with.

      Vanity Arguments

      The beginner bikes you recommend are dated and ugly looking.

      I want something that's modern and stylish.

      I want a bike that looks good and that I look good on.

      I call these the vanity arguments. These are probably the worst reasons you can have for wanting a particular bike.

      I will not disagree that aesthetics plays a huge part in the bikes that appeal to us. Motorcycles are the ultimate expression in personal taste in vehicles. Far more than cars. Bikes are more personal and the connection between rider and machine is far more intimate on a bike than a car. On a bike, you are part of the machine, not just a passive passenger.

      However, as entry into world of riding and with the temporarily status that most beginner bikes have in our garages, looks should be the least of your concerns. As long as the bike is in good repair and mechanically sound, that is usually enough for most new riders to be happy. Most riders are happy to ride and they will ride anything given the choice between riding or not riding.

      If you are looking at bike mainly because of how it looks and/or how you will look it and how others will perceive you on it, take a good, long, honest look as to why you want to ride. There are lots of people out there who buy things strictly because of how it makes them appear in the eyes of others. It's shallow and vain but it is a fact of life. It shouldn't be a factor in choosing that first ride but it is. I won't deny that.

      The difference is: a BMW or Mercedes generally won't leaving you hanging on for dear life if you stomp on the accelerator or throw you into the road if you slam on the brakes a little hard. Virtually ever sportbike made in the past 10-15 years will do both of those things given a chance to do so (for reasons that will be explained later in this column).

      The population at large may think you're cool and look great on that brand new sportbike and ohh-and-ahh at you. The ohhs can quickly turn to screams of horror should, in your efforts to impress the masses, you wind up dumping your bike and surfing the asphalt. Will you still look cool with thousands of dollars in damage to that once-beautiful sportbike and with the signatures and well-wishes of your friends on the various casts you'll be wearing months afterwards?

      You Be The Judge

      I'm a big rider so I need a bigger bike to get me around.

      I'm a tall rider and all of those beginner bikes just don't fit me the way the sportbike does.

      I'll look huge and foolish riding on such a small bike.

      My friends will laugh at me for riding something so small.

      These arguments are almost as bad as the vanity arguments. The difference being is they simply show a lack of motorcycle knowledge for the most part.

      Unless you are over 6'3" tall or are extremely overweight (meaning well over 300lbs), even the smallest 250cc motorcycle will be able to accommodate you without difficultly. To provide an example, the Ninja 250R has a load limit of 348 pounds. That is more than sufficient to accommodate a heavier rider in full gear and still leave plenty of space for cargo in tank, tail and saddle bags. Or enough to allow two-up riding between two average weight individuals.

      The idea that bigger riders need bigger bikes is almost laughable. It's like saying small drivers need Honda Civics but bigger drivers only 100 pounds heavier need to drive Hummers to get around. Or Corvettes with plenty of power to pull their ample frames, as the analogy goes. It is only because of the small physical size of bikes compared to their users that this train of thought even exists. It simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. A look at any motorcycle owner's manual will confirm that for you.

      Tall riders suffer more from fit issues than weight issues. On this, they do have a point. I'm a taller rider (6'1"). I do fold up quite comfortably on the Ninja 250 which is considered a small bike. I found it perfect for my frame. Others haven't. Then again, my knees hit the bars on bikes like the Rebel 250 and Buell Blast. Just different ergonomics that didn't fit me.

      For taller riders, a much better beginner fit is a dual-sport machine rather than a sport machine. They offer the high seat heights that make them comfortable rides and their power is well within acceptable limits. We have a small but vocal dual-sport community here and they will tell you, quite rightly, that a dual-sport is just as capable on twisty roads as a sportbike. The same properties that give sportbikes their cornering ability is also possessed by dual sports (high center of gravity).

      As to peer pressure, I admit to taking more than my fair share of ribbing from my 600cc riding friends. Some of it good natured, some of it not. In the end, this argument falls into the vanity arena. Which is more important: Your safety and comfort on a bike or what your friends think?

      The ways to deal with friends giving you a hard time about a smaller ride is very simple. Tell them to ride their rides and you'll ride yours. It's your ride, after all. Most true riders will accept other riders, no matter what they are on. Only posers and losers care that your ride doesn't measure up to their "standards". And if so, do you really want to be riding with them anyway? It's more fun to stand out than to be a member of a flock anyway. And if they don't buy that line of reasoning, try this one: "Well if you don't like my ride, why don't you go buy me something that you will like?". THAT will shut them up REALLY fast. It works too. Unless their name is on the payment book or the title, it shouldn't be their concern.

      If your friends can't deal with your decisions, you're probably better off looking for new friends. And if you can't deal with the peer pressure, then you are putting your own safety at risk solely because of what others think. Revisit the vanity arguments above and think about why you want to ride.

      Decision Justification Arguments

      I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

      I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

      I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

      Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

      These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions.

      The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues.

      Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity.

      I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

      The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of.

      But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding.

      In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to.

      Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling.

      You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation.

      It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers.




      Modified by SilverSLC at 8:06 AM 7-27-2005
      The artist formerly known as SilverSLC
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    4. Vortex Media Group Staff Tim@VMG's Avatar
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      07-27-2005 08:05 AM #39
      Here's the rest of the article:

      Quote »

      Form Equals Function: Part Two

      In Part One of this article, we covered a lot of the excuses that new riders give for wanting to start on a 600cc sportbike. This second half finishes off our discussion of this reasoning and discusses why high-powered sport machines are not the ideal beginner machine.

      False Logic Completed

      Last month, we covered many of the reasons new riders give to justify why they want or should get a 600cc sportbike. Now we finish with the last and most common excuses given.
      I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

      This is what I call the "I'm responsible and mature" argument. This one is a general excuse and does not apply to sportbikes in particular.

      Recent studies have shown that 90% of all drivers feel that they have average to above-driving abilities compared to other drivers on the road. These drivers also said that they think 60% of those on the road are less skilled than they are. It's an interesting perception as it indicates a mentality that everyone else is sub-par, not you. Obviously someone has to be wrong because the percentages just don't add up.

      A proper attitude towards driving as well as riding is essential. But these same drivers who see themselves as superior also engage in dangerous driving habits (aggressive weaving, illegal passing, bad merges, following too close, lack of attention to traffic/road conditions, etc). Very few drivers are truly honest with themselves and their ability to handle a vehicle.

      The problem is, on a bike, the perception that you are responsible is not enough. On a bike, you must be. You either learn to be or you are going to be in trouble really quick. In talking with other riders I have found that they tend to be much more defensive and thoughtful drivers behind the wheel because riding raises their perception of their surroundings.

      Ultimately, responsible and mature does not equate to riding skill. It has nothing to do with it except how you will approach riding in general. You want to know the sign of a responsible rider? Look at their gear. Are they in full safety gear? Watch them ride. If you are seeing them turn their heads to clear their blind spots, making careful and smooth maneuvers, leaving a nice, safe amount space around them and working to maximize your chance of seeing and knowing what they are doing, then you are looking at a responsible rider.

      Now do the same exercise and watch the drivers around you. How many turn their heads to check their blind spots, signal lane changes, leaving several car lengths of space in front of them, weave in and out of traffic or dash to the end of a ramp and then attempt to force themselves onto the highway rather than yield like they are supposed to? I'm willing to bet it's not going to be a pretty significant percentage. Now imagine these same individuals on a bike. I'm sure you'll be able to spot more than a few of these types on bikes to (just look for the T-shirts and flip-flops as they blast by you at 100mph on the Interstate on the right).

      How you approach the task of driving is how you will approach riding. Attention to the task of riding is the number one way you avoid trouble by not getting into it in the first place. Study your own driving habits. Good habits will definitely keep your chances of getting into trouble but they have little to do with controlling a motorcycle. Any motorcycle. Many lax drivers often become much better drivers as the result of riding a motorcycle. It is far less common for it to go in the other direction.

      I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

      Of all the excuses and justifications, this one is my personal favorite. It is in the top three most common excuses given and it shows a complete and utter lack of motorcycle knowledge. It is a statement made out of naivety rather than ignorance.

      Most of the folks who make this statement own fast cars (Corvette, Mustang, Acura, modified Civic, etc) or think they do. The belief is that if you can drive fast in a car you can handle a bike that can go fast. I would argue unless these folks race cars on weekends, driving a car that can go fast does not make them a experienced high-speed driver. And for those that do understand how to handle a car at high speed, it gives you knowledge of braking and traction but even that knowledge is useless for one simple reason:

      Bikes are not cars.

      Braking, traction control, acceleration and handling are totally different on a motorcycle. Cars do not lean. Bikes do. When bikes lean, it changes the part of the tire contacting the ground (the contact patch/ring) and changes the stability and dynamics of the bike from moment to moment. The physics of motorcycle control are in a league of their own. Even the ability to race cars will not give you instant godhood on a motorcycle.

      Are you aware that a racing motorcycle (any 600cc supersport made today basically) when it is turning is touching the ground with an amount of rubber equal to a couple of postage stamps? The same applies to any street bike at deep lean angles except they don't have the advantage of a smooth surface to hold on to or sticky race tires. Now imagine having to control the power and the amount of traction you are getting in that space.

      Like being responsible, the ability to handle a car at high speed has nothing to do with handling a fast motorcycle. You are missing two wheels, a cage and a seatbelt on a bike. Turning at 70mph becomes a whole different world on a motorcycle compared to car. Braking is a different experience too. It is fairly hard to stand a car on its front fender if you stomp on the brakes. It can be done with two fingers, a good amount of speed and a moment of panic on a sportbike. The only cars that have brakes equal or better than that of a sportbike built in the last 10 years is a Formula One race car.

      The skills to handle the potent combination of acceleration, instant-on power and brakes are best learned on a smaller machine so when you finally get on that ultimate sportbike, you have an idea of what to do and how to handle the machine. Driving a car won't give you that. Only time in the saddle, the more, the better.

      Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

      This is probably the number one reason that pops up. However, it isn't so much a reason as an observation. And it is a true one. Every year, lots of new riders go to their local dealerships or scour their local ads and bring home a brand new or used 600cc sportbike. And many of those riders do successfully manage to get through their learning process on these machines.

      The purpose of a first ride more than any other is to get the risk of riding for the first year or two as low as possible. You want your margin of forgiveness in the bike to be as wide as possible. A 600cc sportbike gives you very little of that. Yes, a 600cc down low is a tame if sensitive machine. However, it takes very little twist on the throttle to induce a large jump in rpm's. A brief bump on a pothole with a death grip on the throttle can introduce a 4000rpm jump in the blink of an eye (speaking from personal experience). In an experienced rider's hands, this is alarming but recoverable. A gentle rolloff or a little clutch feathering manages the surge nicely. In the hands of a newbie trying to figure out the best reaction to such a scare, a rapid closeoff or a panic brake is often the result and can get you into trouble very, very quickly.

      Yes, a new rider can start on a 600cc sportbike. It is NOT RECOMMENDED! The reason this line of reasoning pops up so often is because everyone feels they are the exception rather than just another new rider. It makes sense. It's hard to think of oneself as just another face in the crowd. As a rider, I know I am just another average rider. Although I have track aspirations, I have no doubt as to where my skill level is and it is definitely not in (or ever was) in the "start on a 600cc exceptional group".

      In the end, to deal with this line of reasoning is going to involve the new rider, not the one giving the advice. No one can stop that person from going out and buying a 600cc sportbike as a first ride. And maybe they will succeed and crow about all the bad advice they received on starting small. Great! They were the exception.

      What you don't hear about are the non-exceptional people. Very, very few new riders who start on 600s come back to talk about their experiences if they aren't in the "I've had no problems." group. On the forums recently, there have been a couple folks who admitted they got 600cc sportbikes to start on and indicated that it had been a less-than-ideal choice. This type of honesty is refreshing and it is very, very rare. I am grateful these riders stepped up.

      Most of the time, we never learn the fate of those riders who start on 600s. Some make it and simply never bother to tell their tales except to friends. Some wind up scaring themselves so badly (by getting out of control or by actually dumping the bike and injuring themselves) that they sell off and never ride again. These types can be found. Just troll the ads for new supersports with one owner and low miles. The worst of this class of riders are the ones who become "born again safety advocates". These riders who scare themselves out of riding occasionally become preachers that tell anyone who will listen that "motorcycles are dangerous and should be banned". What they don't tell those they are preaching to is how they got that way. It's bad enough having to deal with the general public (who are at least honestly unaware of what riding is about) but a lot worse to be sabotaged from within by someone who did it to themselves and got in over their head.

      Then there is the last group of these "started on a 600cc sportbike" riders that never tell us their tales. They never do because they can't. Instead, they enjoying peaceful surroundings and occasional visits by bereaved family and friends. They made that one mistake, that one error that compounded into a tragedy of inexperience. They can never tell us what that error was so we can learn from it and maybe also tell us that they should have started on something smaller. They were successful right until the point their skills and luck ran out. This can happen to any of us on any bike. But, in the end, new riders on a powerful sportbike can be a recipe for disaster.

      Be honest with yourself. Very honest. Take the advice and wisdom of others more experienced than you and consider what they are saying. They may have a point. But if you opt for that 600cc sportbike, be assured you will still be accepted as a rider and still encouraged to act as safely as possible at all times.

      The Final Equation

      We've covered the reasons why people justify or want to get a 600cc sportbike. But we have one more thing to answer and it is simple: What makes these bad bikes to start on?

      Sportbikes are built as racing machines, pure and simple. They are built in response to guidelines laid down by racing bodies for a particular class and made to win races in that class. Ducati, for example, spends most of their existence building bikes to win races. Since 1950, Ducati was always a racing bike manufacturer first and their products reflected that philosophy. A by-product of winning races is the fact that people see those winning machines and want to ride them (if you're going to ride, you might as well ride the best as it goes). It didn't take the motorcycle manufacturers long to figure out that there was a market demand for these machines and reacted accordingly.

      Sportbikes represent a technological arms race. This has really become apparent in the past 5-10 years where new models eclipse last years models with better performance and capability with each passing year. To compare a 1989 Honda CBR600F Hurricane (the original CBR) to a 2003 CBR600RR is pointless. There is no comparison except in the model designation showing a distant family relation. The new CBR is lighter by at least 50 pounds and packs 30 percent more power, handling and braking ability that makes the original CBR look like a ponderous dinosaur. But just because that original CBR dinosaur has been eclipsed doesn't make it any more tamable. If anything, older sportbikes are far more temperamental than the descendants.

      Consider the fact that this year a privateer (independent racer) bought a Yamaha YZF-R1 off the showroom floor, took off the lights and mirrors, added a race belly pan, exhaust and tires and placed in the top ten at the AMA Superbike race at Daytona. The bike was two weeks off the floor and basically stock (the modifications with the exception of the pipe are required). Since factory sponsored teams tend to take the top slots, any privateer that can break in the top ten is doing well by anyone's definition.

      Because sportbikes (and especially 600s since they compete in the most populous racing class out there) are designed first as racing machines, they are built with handling, acceleration and speed in mind. Not just one quality at the expense of others but all of them in abundance! Centralizing the mass of the bike at the center of gravity (CoG) gives the bike neutral stability. The high riding position and the perching of the rider over the CoG gives the bike the ability to flick over rapidly.

      The steering geometry and short wheelbase of these bikes is designed to provide short and rapid directional changes. Combined with the higher CoG and mass centralization, the steering setup is what gives sportbikes their amazing turning ability.

      Engine designs vary but have settled on V-twins and inline fours as the preferred choices. The sportbike V-twins are liquid-cooled, high-rpm engines designed to generate massive torque (hence acceleration) and power in the mid-range of their design limits. Witness the success of Nicky Hayden and Miquel Duhamel on the Honda RC51 in AMA Superbike as testament to the massive grunt these engines put out. So potent in fact that the AMA changed the rules for the following season to even the odds between the V-twins and inline fours. The inline four equipped bikes simply couldn't outpower the twins on curvy portions of the race circuit.

      The inline four is by far the most common engine layout in sportbikes including all 600cc sport designs (the Ducati 620SS has a V-twin but is air-cooled and the bike is not a racing machine). All of the sportbikes that new riders lust after are equipped with this engine design. High-rpm capability (redlines vary between 11K and 16K rpm), liquid cooled and designed to produce peak power at very high rpms. The inline four delivers smooth and increasing power as the throttle is opened. Power tends to build to the peak point, at which power the engine will tend to surge to peak power and fall off as the peak point is crossed. Although nowhere near as bad as a race-tuned two-stroke (which literally double their horsepower as the engine transitions to peak power), the engine displays its roots as a racing thoroughbred.

      A 1mm or 1/16 of an inch twist of the throttle can easily result in a 2000-4000rpm jump. You can be cruising along at a sedate 4000rpm, hit a pothole and suddenly find the bike surging forward with the front end getting light at 7000rpm. Definitely unnerving the first time you experience it.

      And then there are the brakes. Braking technology has gotten progressively more potent over the past ten years. Even older sportbikes sport twin disc setups with two or four piston calipers designed to get these bikes down from 150mph to 60mph as quickly as possible. Current generation bikes are unreal. These brakes have grown to six piston calipers with massive discs whose sole job is to slow a 180mph missile down to corner speed in the shortest distance possible. If you ever watch racers, notice that they tend to only use two fingers to brake. They don't need anymore than that. The brakes are almost too powerful. And accidents happen on the track a lot due to bad or late braking.

      All of these qualities produce an exquisite riding machine. The problem is, all of these qualities are designed to operate at extremes since it is under extreme conditions that these bikes are intended to operate. For the street, these capabilities are overkill. A hard squeeze of the front brake on the street can easily get a sportbike to lock its front wheel. Same applies to an over-aggressive stomp on the rear brake. No matter which way you slice it, highsides hurt.

      The powerful engine can literally get you from 0 to 45mph in the blink of an eye in first gear. Come up one gear and you can be at 70mph with the slightest drop of your wrist. Add in one bump at speed without knowing what the throttle is going to do and suddenly you aren't at 70mph anymore. You're at 90+ mph and the bike is tickling its "sweet spot". At this speed, you better not panic. If you botch the slowdown from this error (either by a rapid rolloff or a shift), you can find yourself in serious trouble.

      The handling capabilities of sportbikes actually make them wonderful machines to ride once you are used to thinking where you want to go. This actually gives them great beginner qualities (if on the extreme end). The downside is this perfect handling is slaved to amazing power on tap and the brakes that can back it off just as quickly.

      In the final equation, a 600cc sportbike is little more than a racing machine with street parts bolted on. They aren't designed for street use; they are adapted to it. But no compromises are made in that transition. The same R6, GSX-R600, ZX-6RR or CBR600RR you can buy off the showroom floor can be converted in an afternoon, be at the track the next day and wind up winning races. And the sportbikes from 10 years ago were the R6s, Gixxers, Ninjas and CBRs of their day. They possessed the same qualities that their modern descendants do just not with the same maximums. Even today on the street, a 15 year old sportbike is little different than its 2003 cousin. The 2003 might accelerate quicker, stop shorter and lean farther but at the speeds us mortals ride at, there will be little difference.

      Sportbike technology has gone an amazing distance in twenty years. Performance and ability has almost doubled in that time. But rider ability has not and a new rider from 20 years ago would still have the same challenges then as a new rider would today on an R6.

      Sportbike form evolved to meets its function: to win races. Always has, always will. And riders will lust after these technological marvels for that reason. Can you start out on one? Yes. But you can also pretend to be a GP racer on a smaller sportbike that gives up nothing to its bigger brothers where most of us spend our riding days. It is always more satisfying to smoke a 600cc or 1000cc sportbike in the twisties on a Ninja 250 or GS500 than a bigger bike.

      But when you are ready to answer the call of the Supersport, they will be waiting for you and you'll be better off having honed your skills on the smaller sportbike. Supersports are not beginner bikes. But they make great second and third bikes.

      The choice is yours.

      The artist formerly known as SilverSLC
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    5. Global Moderator Paul@VWvortex's Avatar
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      08-03-2005 04:03 PM #40
      Good stuff Tim. We should post it in the regular Motorcycle forum for everyone to read.

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      10-20-2005 11:21 PM #41
      If you want to go fast, look up your local track day. http://www.nesba.com for example. They usually have instructors that will give you some great pointers and you can learn some skills in a controlled environment that may save your butt on the street.

      Also try battletrax for a toned down and less expensive time. It's like autocross for bikes. You'll learn a good deal about low speed handling and that's where a lot of people end up dumping their brand new shiny bikes, during low speed manuvers in parking lots and such.


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      12-08-2005 11:54 PM #42
      There is a lot of good advice here but I'll add my 2 cents worth.

      You get up, you get down. Since you will ride a bike and will be going down, you had better be wearing your helmet and protective clothing too such as a jacket to protect your elbows.

      The first 500 miles are the worst. If you survive those, you are doing well so far but don't get arrogant. I got going in urban traffic; it's where I was.

      Never lose your sense of paranoia, it will keep you alive.

      Cagers are not mean, just can't see always, even when looking. Intersections with an opposing car intending to turn left still scare me.

      Night riding is dangerous, try to minimize it. At night we hit a brick on the freeway with my wife on the back. I still cringe when I think of it. It did not throw the bike. Clipped a deer at night too. Road debris comes from nowhere at night.

      Center of lane at urban intersections is oily, not good for braking. Stay to one side or the other. A 2 cyl BMW has inherent crash bars to my benefit.

      If you are klutzy, don't ride a bike. It will bite you. It bites you a little even if not.

      Motorcycles are great, I wouldn't have missed them for much else.


    8. Member Seitan's Avatar
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      05-11-2006 02:53 AM #43
      Quote, originally posted by apeirce »
      Q: Where can I find some more information on a good bike to start on?

      A: Visit http://www.beginnerbikes.com/, bonus, they have lots of tips for new riders too.

      that website is no longer...is there a new one?


    9. 06-05-2006 12:37 PM #44
      Also, when speaking of helmets, Medical Emergency Data Systems should be mentioned. BCM Motorsports had an article on their site about MEDS, which are personal data sheets that attach to the back of your helmet via a tiny little puoch. In the event of a crash (God forbid...) and you are unconscious, these data sheets give emergency medical personnel all of your vital info and stats so you get the proper care you need. I purchased a system for myself and for my boyfriend, and it brings much peace of mind.

      http://www.meds.org/mcyclehelmet.php


    10. 06-06-2006 12:08 PM #45
      LOL, check this craigslist posting:

      http://newyork.craigslist.org/....html

      Quote, originally posted by NEWB »

      I need A 600cc Sport bike in the 1990s. I prefer CBRs But I will accept any Japanese bike.Send me your bike and the price you want.I am trying to go cheap here people I dont want to see your new hayabusa. $1500 OR LESS IS MY LIMIT. Bike must be in good running condition and inspection ready.


      this is in or around Bronx

      no -- it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests



      Let's Go Jets/Mets/Nets

    11. 06-15-2006 10:26 AM #46

      So he wants an early to mid-90's 600. Not the best choice, but its a FAR cry from anything made in the past 6-7 years.

      Besides, this is a FAQ thread--lets keep it that way.

      Mods, probably best if you delete this post (my post) and the one above it.

      Oh...and make this a sticky again


    12. 08-08-2006 12:40 PM #47
      Quote, originally posted by shadowdglx »
      dont wory about the cc. get the right fitting bike. if you legs are sticking strait out the sides get a bigger bike... youl learn hoe to control the horsepower. if you fit fine on a small bike at least get one that is respectible...r6 gsxr6 636... remember your getting a streetbike for a reason. just my 2 cents. actual value may vary...

      worst advice ever.

      respectable to whom??? and you 2 cents isn't worth much because you can't spell.

      get a BEGINNER BIKE if you are a beginner. small, slow and easy to control....NOT a freaking supersport or race rep.

      take the msf and wear your gear.

      done.


    13. 10-26-2006 10:02 PM #48
      im 6'2" 250 lbs and i fit fine on a EX 500.
      even a "slow" bike like the ex500 is faster than 99% of the stock cars on the road.
      my 500 with a few mods and good rider was in the high 12's

      get a bigginers bike learn enjoy and stay safe.


    14. 12-22-2006 07:12 AM #49
      Dress for the crash...not the ride. GEar is the most important thing!

      Also, buy the Michelin Pilot Powers!! Best street tires on the market! They also make a dual compound Power called the 2CT. Recommend for a great street/track tire. They average 12 track days per set!


    15. 03-31-2007 09:48 AM #50
      im almost 18, is it to early to get a street bike i have never driven a street bike by my self but i have driven many dirtbikes and quads, i want a bike so it can get me around. still have fun and be less then a car. any advice?

    16. Vortex Media Group Staff Tim@VMG's Avatar
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      03-31-2007 11:15 AM #51
      Quote, originally posted by jakub89 »
      im almost 18, is it to early to get a street bike i have never driven a street bike by my self but i have driven many dirtbikes and quads, i want a bike so it can get me around. still have fun and be less then a car. any advice?

      Well...

      There are a couple of things that spring to mind right away. As far as your experience with dirtbikes goes, that will give you knowledge of how to operate the controls of the machine. Aside from that, though, just about everything else is different from a dirt bike to a street bike. How it will respond and turn, what the right and wrong things to do with your feet and weight, etc. They're all different. Also, dealing with traffic, road hazards, etc, is something else you'll have to learn.

      There are plenty of bikes out there that are cheap, will last forever, and be good to get you around, while still being fun. Just about any UJM (universal Japanese motorcycle) from the '80's or '90's should fit your bill. They're not expensive, fairly easy to work on, and are all over the place.

      Please, though, don't fall in to the trap of thinking you "need" a sportbike or something "really fast" to get anyfun out of it. You don't! Someone told me when I started riding that being on a motorcycle wouldredefine what "fast" is to me. And it did. 45 or 60 or 65 on a bike feels nothing like it does in a car. And in addition to that, any bike is going to be faster than most cars. I ride a 14 year old stodgy "sport touring" bike with less than 70 HP that will still suck the doors of any car I've ever driven.

      The biggest and best piece of advice I could give you, though, would be to take the MSF course. It will give you a good feel for a road bike, and it will also teach you some basic street survival skills that everyone on a bike should have.

      Good luck!

      -Tim

      The artist formerly known as SilverSLC
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    17. 03-31-2007 11:53 AM #52
      Quote, originally posted by SilverSLC »

      Well...

      There are a couple of things that spring to mind right away. As far as your experience with dirtbikes goes, that will give you knowledge of how to operate the controls of the machine. Aside from that, though, just about everything else is different from a dirt bike to a street bike. How it will respond and turn, what the right and wrong things to do with your feet and weight, etc. They're all different. Also, dealing with traffic, road hazards, etc, is something else you'll have to learn.

      There are plenty of bikes out there that are cheap, will last forever, and be good to get you around, while still being fun. Just about any UJM (universal Japanese motorcycle) from the '80's or '90's should fit your bill. They're not expensive, fairly easy to work on, and are all over the place.

      Please, though, don't fall in to the trap of thinking you "need" a sportbike or something "really fast" to get anyfun out of it. You don't! Someone told me when I started riding that being on a motorcycle wouldredefine what "fast" is to me. And it did. 45 or 60 or 65 on a bike feels nothing like it does in a car. And in addition to that, any bike is going to be faster than most cars. I ride a 14 year old stodgy "sport touring" bike with less than 70 HP that will still suck the doors of any car I've ever driven.

      The biggest and best piece of advice I could give you, though, would be to take the MSF course. It will give you a good feel for a road bike, and it will also teach you some basic street survival skills that everyone on a bike should have.

      Good luck!

      -Tim


      this is after i get the bike right?

      also, is there some kind of book a can get at DMV to pass the knowledge test?


      Modified by jakub89 at 9:04 AM 3-31-2007


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      05-12-2007 05:54 PM #53
      Yet another "would this be a good first bike gnahgnahgnah" question which I imagined will be followed by nay and yay sayers...

      First of all, yes I took a full motorcycle course (shocking I know) that included 30 hours of riding, 20hrs closed course and 10hrs in traffic. So I guess somehow I got the theory and practiced a bit... although that was last summer.

      Bikes I've had the dubious pleasure of riding:

      Honda CB125T, closed course only, learned that unlike a bicycle, do not reach for the right hand side lever when entering a turn too quick. In the rain. I actually had fun on the thing, in a sub-60km/h, 5 feet wide circuit kinda way.

      Honda 450 cruisers (Nighthawk and derivatives): one word: eewwwww.

      Honda Magna 750 (I think that's what it was): why are my feet so far ahead?? And I kept going for the non-existent 5th gear. Absorbs Montreal potholes like no other though!

      Suzuki GS500: that thing was fun!! Comfy riding position, I found myself slowing down, downshifting a couple gears and twisting the throttle to catch up with the group, opening it (a bit) in tunnels, definitely the best I've ridden (although it may have to do with the others being ****ty. But there's something about that CB125...)

      So what I've been looking at:
      Suzuki DRZ400-SM. Just looks like damn good fun. Will probably cringe and start crying the first time I put on its side on a dusty corner. And will cry everytime I have to take an highway.

      Suzuki SV650. See above post, delete highway ranting, add "damn that exhaust is ugly".

      Wiser choice (so this is actually what I'm really considering):
      Honda CB-1
      Used, fairly cheap, uncommon, inline 4, 400cc (those cylinders have to be puny!), 50hp of pure fury, bone dry naked.
      Would likely be repainted flat black (bitch all you want), a set of wire spokes wheel with a meatier front tire (if possible, yes, only for looks) with black spokes and red rim (again, bitch all you want).

      Honda Bros
      Outta nowhere, one side swingram coolness from the eighties, and V-twin lack of power. Also comes with hideous 3-spoke wheels like the CB-1. Back when neon apparel was all the rage...

      Buell Blast
      Just because I like the other Buells... Also cheap, but newer!

      Thoughts, comments, address to the nearest asylum?


      Modified by strapontin at 2:56 PM 5-12-2007


      Modified by strapontin at 3:04 PM 5-12-2007


    19. Member Viss1's Avatar
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      05-30-2007 09:22 AM #54
      For the FAQ, how about popular parts sources? My local shop is a bit pricey.

    20. Member 16veebunny's Avatar
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      06-22-2007 02:01 PM #55
      Quote, originally posted by bxr140 »

      The VFR 400 has the single sidsed swingarm, an engine tone that will turn heads of Harley guys, let alone sportbike guys, AND it has gobs of resale value, not that you'd ever sell it. Wanna REALLY stand out? Get one of THESE.

      Unfortunately, those are almost impossible to find in the USA.
      I have a VFR750, and I don't think I'll ever need anything else

      Also, as far as a first bike goes, I started out on a 1985 Honda VF500.
      Amazing starter bike. Smooth, easy to ride, good geometry, and incredibly easy on you.
      Fast enough to not get boring quickly, either. I took it up in the mountains and wasn't isntantly dusted off, in fact I led part of the ride.
      Anyway, they're cheap & reliable.

      Taylor R
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      07-24-2007 07:23 PM #56
      Current: 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi 4x4, 2013 BMW 650GS Sertao, BMW 1150RT
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      09-11-2007 05:16 PM #57
      Tell me about leaning in a turn. Should you always lean your body upright, while leaning the bike in a slow turn? In a fast turn do you do the same yet lean over with the bike?
      Quote Originally Posted by Adam Carolla
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    23. 09-11-2007 05:53 PM #58
      The most important thing is to look where you're going. Your body should react and adjust accordingly.
      Let's Go Jets/Mets/Nets

    24. 10-17-2007 03:52 PM #59
      Seeing how this is Q&A and im a newb at bikes. I have a 97 CBR600F3

      Q: I want to lower it cause god didnt bless me with long legs. How would i go bout doing this(where to go/where to look for lowering stuff)?


    25. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      10-17-2007 07:14 PM #60
      Quote, originally posted by blackbomer1.8T »
      Seeing how this is Q&A and im a newb at bikes. I have a 97 CBR600F3

      Q: I want to lower it cause god didnt bless me with long legs. How would i go bout doing this(where to go/where to look for lowering stuff)?

      Do an ebay search for lowering links, dogbone, or some variation thereof. The front is easy, you just loosen up the forks in the triple tree and lower it. The rear needs a new piece that lowers the swingarm, if you look underneath your bike you should see a piece of metal that looks like, well, a dog bone.

      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    26. 04-25-2008 09:23 PM #61



      Modified by cbrvroom at 12:51 PM 4-26-2008

    27. 08-19-2008 01:22 AM #62
      I suggest a bike under 50hp and 400lbs.
      A 600cc super sport is usually too heavy for a beginner to be at ease with. Its more fun to start small, you don't have to worry as much about your throttle, clutch, brake, and slow speed balance control. A smaller bike is more forgiving in all these areas.

      Don't let anybody say you are a pussay for starting smart.
      The argument that you will inevitably get a bigger bike so you might as well get it now may save you some trouble. But, can deprive you of the ability to test the limits of the bike and develop your skill. Going fast in a straight line is not as fun as fast curves. You can easily put the SS's to shame in the twists on an ex250. Ninja 250's hold their value very well, you also get 50mpg.

      I know 6'+ guys who have comfortably ridden for hours on a ex250. The 08 and up are said to be less comfy than the original.

      Riding a slow bike fast may be more fun than a fast bike fast.

      The probability of dropping your first bike is very high, you may regret buying a bike with expensive full fairings.

      Twist of the Wrist 2 is a good riding theory book

      try to buy a bike in December when no one wants to ride

      watch out for loose gravel

      paint on roads is slippery when wet
      oil from cars covers the middle of lanes, watch out for this when coming to a stop and in the wet.

      the key to making sharp turns at slow speeds is counterbalance. shift your weight to the opposite side of the lean. this stuff is learned in MSF and CBT(UK)

      Modified by bclassd at 10:25 PM 8-18-2008


      Modified by bclassd at 11:41 PM 8-18-2008


    28. 09-28-2008 10:29 PM #63
      I'm looking at a '92 Ninja EX500, and I've just started looking at Ninja's in general. Could anyone give me some advice on any common problems or defects they've noticed for the bikes? I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I actually go see the bike, so if you have tips or suggestions for me I'd really appreciate it.

    29. 10-04-2008 11:59 PM #64
      EX500's are great, but you'd be better off with a 2nd generation, which is '94+. 2nd gens have rear disc brakes, 17" wheels, and their transmissions are built a little better. Go to: http://www.ex-500.com/index.php You will find all the info you want about these bikes. Check out the FS section, a lot of great deals, good luck! The 500 is a great bike!

    30. Member mad8vskillz's Avatar
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      12-03-2008 01:50 PM #65
      read the tips section on http://www.msgroup.org/
      plenty of good ideas and tips
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    31. 04-13-2009 06:08 PM #66
      great thread for us beginners. Thanks guys!!!

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      04-20-2009 08:01 PM #67
      This should be required reading for those wondering what kind of gear they should be wearing. I might say it's a tad lenient, but still has some great guidelines.

      http://www.motorcycle.com/ride....html


    33. 05-07-2009 05:26 PM #68
      Hey Guys, quick rookie question on riding position:

      What is the best position for your left foot on the pegs? Is it best to position under/over the shifter (like you are about to shift)? Or just keep the foot back away from the shift-lever altogether (until you are ready to shift)? I have been experimenting with different positions but wondered what the consensus was so I can learn the correct habits early.

      I am in my first 500 miles and picked up a lot of useful information from you guys so I appreciate it!


    34. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      05-07-2009 08:29 PM #69
      Quote, originally posted by JoeArlo »
      Hey Guys, quick rookie question on riding position:

      What is the best position for your left foot on the pegs? Is it best to position under/over the shifter (like you are about to shift)? Or just keep the foot back away from the shift-lever altogether (until you are ready to shift)? I have been experimenting with different positions but wondered what the consensus was so I can learn the correct habits early.

      I am in my first 500 miles and picked up a lot of useful information from you guys so I appreciate it!

      The rule is that you ride on the balls of your feet, but I don't consider it any great sin to ignore this for most types of riding. Just don't keep tension on the shift lever if you aren't getting ready to shift.

      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    35. 05-28-2009 11:39 AM #70
      Just a note for anybody looking for a starter bike:

      I just picked up (like a month ago) my first bike. I got a good condition '81 Suzuki GS450L. I spent $750 on it, its really light, easy to ride, reliable, and plenty fast. (Im 6'2" 190 lbs athletic build)

      My buddy rode it, he has been riding forever and has some sick bikes, and he's 240 lbs and he said its still plenty fast. he actually really liked it.

      really comfortable, great starter IMO. I recommend it or something like it.

      I also saw some ppl asking about gear. My suggestion: do like I did, go to a local shop that is willing to just be helpfull without just trying to sell you the most expensive stuff, and have them help you find the gear right for you, and fits right. If I had just ordered something online, I would have ordered a L to XL, when in fact Im a med, almost a small. Jackets are to fit tight on the body, cause when you sit down there will be excess material. that is also why they are shorter than average.


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